Vern Humphrey
Member
I don't understand. Do you mean he was NOT in the house?
He wasn't in the house because he was not allowed to enter.
Allowing Access to Your Home
- Thread starter Jeff White
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He wasn't in the house because he was not allowed to enter.
I get the same. Coincidentally, just yesterday I got one with a new twist. The guy's English was really substandard but he said he was (name sounded vaguely like "Steve something") with the U.S. Treasury Dept., and I was being investigated by "their agents" and I should NOT ignore this call as I'd be called in front of a "magistrate" and suffer all kinds of hardships, etc., etc., etc. He repeated the phone number three different times I was supposed to call.
I was already in a bad mood so I responded with "GFY you crooked, miserable piece of hog feces. Come get me." The phone went silent.
Guess I'll be getting a visit from the U.S. Treasury Dept. soon, huh?
L.W.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Hillary herself will make the arrest.
huntsman
Member
I did that gig for 5 years and many times I was in and out without no one the wiser.
You got it, very few companies will do that though. The few I had to set up an appointment on were high dollar places or when the insurance company wanted the heating/electrical, woodstove report.
Fierce dogs? yep they get a pic taken and written up just as the dangerous breeds.
Bottom line you may think you have control but if you got a mortgage you need insurance and the company has the right to inspect for risks.
Bottom line is they don't have the right to access to my property without prior coordination. No one else comes out without prior coordination and I won't do business with a company that thinks they do. Monday I will be with a new insurer.
I guarantee you that had he not rang the bell or had he been engaged in his business when I arrived home he would have been proned out on the wet grass until he could explain himself to an on duty deputy and I still most likely would have prosecuted for trespass. There is nothing in the policy authorizing uncoordinated access to my property. Nothing in my mortgage either.
The company may have a right to inspect, but it's at my convenience not theirs.
Let me ask, were you bonded when you did that work?
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I guarantee you that had he not rang the bell or had he been engaged in his business when I arrived home he would have been proned out on the wet grass until he could explain himself to an on duty deputy and I still most likely would have prosecuted for trespass. There is nothing in the policy authorizing uncoordinated access to my property. Nothing in my mortgage either.
The company may have a right to inspect, but it's at my convenience not theirs.
Let me ask, were you bonded when you did that work?
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huntsman
Member
Nope and since the insurance companies subcontract the work out I guess that gives them plausible deniability but few times I had trouble from a homeowner they got their insurance canceled.
When I first started I used to leave my business card tucked in the door if no one was home until the company I worked for called and told me to stop, you see they don't want the homeowner to know they were inspected.
When I first started I used to leave my business card tucked in the door if no one was home until the company I worked for called and told me to stop, you see they don't want the homeowner to know they were inspected.
I'd like to see a policy that has a clause where the insured agrees to a secret inspection. I've dealt with insurance companies all my life and have never seen that.
I doubt that the insurance company can avoid liability if a contract inspector were to damage property or commit a crime in this day and age. Especially if they used a company that wasn't bonded.
It's a moot point now, I'll be changing companies. The company I was with for 35 years never did anything like that, if they wanted to update something my agent called and took care of it. If they hadn't gone out of business I'd still be with them.
It's funny, but when I called my agent, he told me they used to pay the local agents to do that at $50 a pop. I guess this new method is cheaper.
They only time I ever had to deal with something like this was in 2011 after tornado damage.
No one came out without an appointment, not the insurance company or the inspector the bank hired to make sure the repairs were properly completed.
I wouldn't recommend that anyone allow anyone else access to their property without verifying who they are and that they are legit.
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I doubt that the insurance company can avoid liability if a contract inspector were to damage property or commit a crime in this day and age. Especially if they used a company that wasn't bonded.
It's a moot point now, I'll be changing companies. The company I was with for 35 years never did anything like that, if they wanted to update something my agent called and took care of it. If they hadn't gone out of business I'd still be with them.
It's funny, but when I called my agent, he told me they used to pay the local agents to do that at $50 a pop. I guess this new method is cheaper.
They only time I ever had to deal with something like this was in 2011 after tornado damage.
No one came out without an appointment, not the insurance company or the inspector the bank hired to make sure the repairs were properly completed.
I wouldn't recommend that anyone allow anyone else access to their property without verifying who they are and that they are legit.
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Vern Humphrey
Member
I'm surprised that you have to say that. No one smart enough to tie his own shoes would allow some slick-talking stranger access to his property.
Vern,
Unfortunately a lot and I mean a lot of people will fall for some line if it seems plausible enough.
Unfortunately a lot and I mean a lot of people will fall for some line if it seems plausible enough.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Perhaps we should drop this thread. As Herbert Spencer said, "The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools."
I get the concern, but anyone who wants to take pictures of the outside of your house can probably do so without asking.
Yes, Vern, the outside. The gentleman in Jeff's story came to the door and asked to see the outside of the house, not to be let in.
Anyway, my house doesn't have special access points, data ports, hatches or anything like that - just a house. It does have windows, but I have close neighbors, which discourages window break-ins. People with secluded homes either have to have bullet proof glass or alarms with a pretty fast reacting police force.
Yes, Vern, the outside. The gentleman in Jeff's story came to the door and asked to see the outside of the house, not to be let in.
Anyway, my house doesn't have special access points, data ports, hatches or anything like that - just a house. It does have windows, but I have close neighbors, which discourages window break-ins. People with secluded homes either have to have bullet proof glass or alarms with a pretty fast reacting police force.
I was reminded of an incident several years ago. At 10pm I heard my dogs barking. I went out to my security gate & a young guy wearing a tool belt & climbing equipment is standing there. He says, "I'm from Century Communications & I'm investigating people who are stealing cable TV in this area."
I said, "Well, I don't have cable TV - just regular antenna TV."
He says, "I'm going up on your roof to check."
I said, "No, you're not going on my roof."
He actually said, "I have a legal right to go on your roof to see if you're stealing cable."
I said, "You're pretty young....that attitude & stupidity may prevent you from getting any older. Like I said, you are not going up on my roof & now would be a very smart time to get off my property."
He again said, "I'm going up on your roof."
I said, "If you do, you'll stay up there for the rest of your life...I'm armed & I'll do whatever I have to do to keep you off my roof & you're not getting a second warning."
He left. The next day, when I wasn't home & the gate was open to allow the gardener to work, he cut my TV antenna where the cable comes out of the living room. I phoned the company & told them what happened. I also told his boss he had exactly 30 minutes to have someone over here to replace my antenna. TEN minutes later, a technician showed up & replaced it with a better-quality cable & said the $250.00 service call will come out of his clown employee's next check.
I said, "Well, I don't have cable TV - just regular antenna TV."
He says, "I'm going up on your roof to check."
I said, "No, you're not going on my roof."
He actually said, "I have a legal right to go on your roof to see if you're stealing cable."
I said, "You're pretty young....that attitude & stupidity may prevent you from getting any older. Like I said, you are not going up on my roof & now would be a very smart time to get off my property."
He again said, "I'm going up on your roof."
I said, "If you do, you'll stay up there for the rest of your life...I'm armed & I'll do whatever I have to do to keep you off my roof & you're not getting a second warning."
He left. The next day, when I wasn't home & the gate was open to allow the gardener to work, he cut my TV antenna where the cable comes out of the living room. I phoned the company & told them what happened. I also told his boss he had exactly 30 minutes to have someone over here to replace my antenna. TEN minutes later, a technician showed up & replaced it with a better-quality cable & said the $250.00 service call will come out of his clown employee's next check.
FL-NC
Member
That was amazingly stupid of your insurance company. There are so many tricks, scams, etc. going on nowadays, I keep a NO SOLICITING sign on my front door and NO TRESPASSING signs on all sides of my fence. The GF doesn't even answer the door to unknown persons, and anyone (with few exceptions) who steps on my property is told in no uncertain terms (but courteously) that they aren't welcome. Its sad that I have to err on the side of caution in such a way, but its a sign of the times. I just feel bad for the kids trying to do legit things like selling girl scout cookies, school raffles, and the like who turn away when they see the signs. If I see them approaching I'm as nice as I can be and buy whatever they are selling, but no one else gets a pass.
RX-79G,
Since you brought it up, let's talk about houses and security.
My house is nothing special, a 1970s vintage ranch style on 7 acres.
One of the selling points was that it's built high. All of the windows are 6 feet off the ground. No one will climb in without bringing a ladder. My wife planted rose bushes under the windows on the front of the house so anyone messing around under those windows will have to deal with the thorns. The basement windows are dead bolted and covered in the 3M film that is supposed to make them shatterproof and hard to break.
There are only two sides of the house that can be viewed from public property and as soon as the trees on the south boundary grow bigger you'll only see one view of the house from public property. To see the layout of the doors and windows on the other two sides requires one to enter my property. Like I said in my earlier post, you could see the back from the tree line to the west but that's 400 meters away and today you'd have to look through the corn that's planted in that field.
There is a dusk to dawn security light and floodlights I can light the area up with.
My oldest son designs and installs security systems for the biggest provider in the region. I'm not going to post details online but there is a security system.
I count on a 20 minute response time for any emergency services I need, response could be faster but my personal experience as a police officer working in this area tells me 20 minutes is what I have to plan for before there is any help.
The easiest access for an intruder would be the patio door off the deck. It's locked with a half inch diameter steel pin that drops into a hole through the track and into the framing. The glass is covered with 3M film that makes it pretty much unbreakable.
Future plan is for a decorative cast iron fence along the road in front of the house and an electric gate for the driveway.
You can have a secure home without making it look like a fortress.
In my experience as a police officer I found that break ins occurred just as often in homes set close together as they did in secluded homes on big lots or out in the country. Close neighbors aren't always the protection you think they are.
There was recently a case where a man accidentally locked himself out of his own home. He tried to break in through the window and the neighbors found him, after he bled out from cutting himself on the glass.
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Since you brought it up, let's talk about houses and security.
My house is nothing special, a 1970s vintage ranch style on 7 acres.
One of the selling points was that it's built high. All of the windows are 6 feet off the ground. No one will climb in without bringing a ladder. My wife planted rose bushes under the windows on the front of the house so anyone messing around under those windows will have to deal with the thorns. The basement windows are dead bolted and covered in the 3M film that is supposed to make them shatterproof and hard to break.
There are only two sides of the house that can be viewed from public property and as soon as the trees on the south boundary grow bigger you'll only see one view of the house from public property. To see the layout of the doors and windows on the other two sides requires one to enter my property. Like I said in my earlier post, you could see the back from the tree line to the west but that's 400 meters away and today you'd have to look through the corn that's planted in that field.
There is a dusk to dawn security light and floodlights I can light the area up with.
My oldest son designs and installs security systems for the biggest provider in the region. I'm not going to post details online but there is a security system.
I count on a 20 minute response time for any emergency services I need, response could be faster but my personal experience as a police officer working in this area tells me 20 minutes is what I have to plan for before there is any help.
The easiest access for an intruder would be the patio door off the deck. It's locked with a half inch diameter steel pin that drops into a hole through the track and into the framing. The glass is covered with 3M film that makes it pretty much unbreakable.
Future plan is for a decorative cast iron fence along the road in front of the house and an electric gate for the driveway.
You can have a secure home without making it look like a fortress.
In my experience as a police officer I found that break ins occurred just as often in homes set close together as they did in secluded homes on big lots or out in the country. Close neighbors aren't always the protection you think they are.
There was recently a case where a man accidentally locked himself out of his own home. He tried to break in through the window and the neighbors found him, after he bled out from cutting himself on the glass.
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Busting Jeff for practicing common sense about who he lets on his property isn't smart. He's presenting a valid concept - substantiated by crime reports and the experiences of victims.
Yes, you would be surprised the number of utility, insurance, and delivery people roaming about in the neighborhood while you are at work. My wife and I have irregular schedules and are home, or not, at different times in the day. It's amazing the amount of traffic with parcel delivery, the electric reader, property assessment and enforcement, tree cutters working power lines, cable, roofers, mowers, gardeners, etc.
Aside from just being there outside, many homeowners give service people a key to the house - and being a locksmith at one time, I found out how many keys were being duplicated. The most common are the keys for Big Box hardware sets, anyone in town can make those. It's why government and security use proprietary keyways only available from a single source vendor in town and only with proper authority. You just don't walk in with a single keyed different pharmacy key and expect to be handed a duplicate - if ever.
Homeowners? Sure, happens all the time. They hand them out like candy to neighbors, family, workmen, etc.
They also open up their garage doors facing the street on Saturday so that all and sundry driving thru the neighborhood can finish up casing their home checking their schedule and also the wave runner, step tread tool box, riding mowers, camping gear, and that big fancy gun safe sitting where anybody will notice. People in the 'burbs tend to be a bunch of showoffs about their possessions. And people in the 'burbs get burglarized when they aren't there - a lot. By thugs who are dressed like utility or service workers driving a van or pickup and who look like all the other ones driving up and down the street mowing or tinkering with the cable.
I know the vulnerabilities of my home, what amazes me are the people who are in complete denial that they are the biggest vulnerability of their home. And sniping at Jeff about it just points out who they are. I'm calling for an attitude check - not for Jeff's sake, he took the job here because dealing with the public it was to be expected. I'm raising the red flag because those who can't see they are their own worst enemy in home security need to know.
You bought a gun, so we assume you did recognize something isn't as good where you live as you would like. Take the next step - instead of relying on a last ditch solution where you failed to keep the intruders out, start looking at how you can be more successful at it. That way if they pass by your house you are saved the trauma and stigma of being a killer in the 'hood just because you did nothing up front.
Yes, you would be surprised the number of utility, insurance, and delivery people roaming about in the neighborhood while you are at work. My wife and I have irregular schedules and are home, or not, at different times in the day. It's amazing the amount of traffic with parcel delivery, the electric reader, property assessment and enforcement, tree cutters working power lines, cable, roofers, mowers, gardeners, etc.
Aside from just being there outside, many homeowners give service people a key to the house - and being a locksmith at one time, I found out how many keys were being duplicated. The most common are the keys for Big Box hardware sets, anyone in town can make those. It's why government and security use proprietary keyways only available from a single source vendor in town and only with proper authority. You just don't walk in with a single keyed different pharmacy key and expect to be handed a duplicate - if ever.
Homeowners? Sure, happens all the time. They hand them out like candy to neighbors, family, workmen, etc.
They also open up their garage doors facing the street on Saturday so that all and sundry driving thru the neighborhood can finish up casing their home checking their schedule and also the wave runner, step tread tool box, riding mowers, camping gear, and that big fancy gun safe sitting where anybody will notice. People in the 'burbs tend to be a bunch of showoffs about their possessions. And people in the 'burbs get burglarized when they aren't there - a lot. By thugs who are dressed like utility or service workers driving a van or pickup and who look like all the other ones driving up and down the street mowing or tinkering with the cable.
I know the vulnerabilities of my home, what amazes me are the people who are in complete denial that they are the biggest vulnerability of their home. And sniping at Jeff about it just points out who they are. I'm calling for an attitude check - not for Jeff's sake, he took the job here because dealing with the public it was to be expected. I'm raising the red flag because those who can't see they are their own worst enemy in home security need to know.
You bought a gun, so we assume you did recognize something isn't as good where you live as you would like. Take the next step - instead of relying on a last ditch solution where you failed to keep the intruders out, start looking at how you can be more successful at it. That way if they pass by your house you are saved the trauma and stigma of being a killer in the 'hood just because you did nothing up front.
TRX
Member
I've been remodeling a house for quite a while. I usually have the doors and windows open, and I've made note of the traffic that goes by. I'd say at least half of it falls into your list, plus the door-to-door magazine sellers, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, occasional police cars, water and wastewater utilities, telephone trucks... those people are all gone by the time most people get home.
Vern Humphrey
Member
He's still trespassing, from the moment he was asked to leave
Anyone who comes to your door isn't trespassing - especially if they comply with your request to leave.
AND, even if you have no trespassing signs up, that doesn't mean that a delivery person or someone with legitimate business shouldn't come to your door - that's what front doors are for.
I'm not "busting Jeff". I'm pointing out that, unless you live behind a huge fence or have someone home monitoring the yard 24/7, there will be people occasionally walking on to your property, and that chasing off the one guy who showed his face and asked permission doesn't protect you at all from him or anyone else coming back when you aren't home.
And if you want to tie that back to being smart about home security, doesn't this interaction plant the seed in this guys mind that Jeff has something to hide? Jeff has his right to privacy, but that doesn't mean that how we interact with people doesn't also put out information about us.
Homes are not castles. They are flimsy things that are relatively easy to bust into - especially in areas where the burgler can work without being seen or heard.
So while I understand the point Jeff is making, I think Jeff decreased the security of his home with his handling of this incident. Whether the guy was legit or merely so well researched that he knew who Jeff's insurance company is, that guy now has every reason to think that Jeff has something valuable to hide when he didn't before. And Jeff will not always be home.
Vern Humphrey
Member
And if they don't comply, they are trespassing.
RX-79G said:
So you think that I should have allowed someone unfettered access to the property before I verified they had a legitimate reason to be there, just so I didn't make him suspect that there might be something of value? I'm sorry but I fail to see the logic in that.
If you look at most homes these days you can reasonably assume that there is something of value inside. Large flat screen televisions, entertainment systems, personal electronic devices, jewelry and guns are all things that are easily fenced. And you will find them in just about every home you look at. I read a survey a couple of weeks ago that said gun ownership was up and that you could expect to find a firearm in 44.1% of American homes. So I think it's pretty much a given that most homes contain something of value.
I don't agree with your idea that the neighbors will watch over your property and that gives you any kind of safety. I've worked enough burglaries to know that neighbors aren't always home or even paying attention, and if they are paying attention, they are more likely to assume someone has a reason to be on your property then they are to raise the alarm unless they actually witness the break in. in my experience people who live in rural areas like I do are more likely to watch out for their neighbors then people living in town.
There are only a few people who regularly come on the property for legitimate business. The guy who reads the water meter, who I know personally, the guy who reads the gas meter, the electric company installed smart meters in this area and they no longer read the meters it sends a signal back. The mailman, who I also know personally occasionally comes to the door if he has a package that doesn't fit in the mailbox, the UPS and occasionally the FedEx driver.
There is a water and gas main that run across an easement next to the highway. Both companies call before they come out to work or to mark their line for someone else to work. When we still had a landline telephone, the phone company would call before they came out.
I'm going to stand by my recommendation that no one be allowed access to the property without verification as to who they are and why they need access.
In this day and age there is no reason for anyone to show up at someone's door requesting access to the property without prior notification and they should expect to be vetted.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Jeff, don't feed the trolls.
berettaprofessor
Member
I've had the same insurance company for 40 years and they've never come to the house to "take pictures"....at least once it was built. I can't remember if the agent even came there when we constructed it. All they cared about was the appraisal cost.
SwaneeSR
Member
I looked up the 3M window film.
http://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/home-window-solutions-us/solutions/
This is far from the first item I would address when securing my home or cabin. However, I was curious about the film.
As mentioned in the above posts, nothing good can happen from an unscheduled visit. When there is a reason to grant access to my house or cabin, I am in attendance. Not my wife or even one of my college-age kids. Fortunately I have a flexible job schedule and I can work from home if needed.
BTW - last year, the morning of the WI deer opener a joker and his young son pull into my parents wooded 40acre property and start putting up a ground blind. My 20-year old son is walking to his deer stand and confronts them. The guy was giving him some BS story about having permission from the owner. My son tells him "you can explain it to my dad, he is pissed and on the way. He is on the other end of the 40 and calling the Sheriff before he gets here. Also, my grandma just told me good luck when I went out the door to come here. I was just trying to give you a chance to leave. " Some people have a strange idea that trespassing does not apply to them and there are no consequences.
Swanee
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