Almost shot neighbor's dog, right or wrong?

[GLOOB]

Well, OP asked, and he's getting opinions.

I wouldn't think of even drawing in this situation. You have your child and the dog's owner in close proximity. Too dangerous. The owner is being dragged behind the dog... so what's your backstop if you're going to shoot it?

I'd place myself between the dog and my child and stand my ground. If the dog attacked me, I'd attack it right back. In my mind, that would be the most assured way to keep the dog or a stray gunshot from hurting my child. Or the owner. And I'm not going to risk killing a stranger or his dog to prevent being bitten a few times. If it occurs, the courts can decide what happens to the dog and/or owner, not me.

Of course, I wouldn't feel threatened with imminent death in a situation where it's effectively 3 humans against 1 dog. (Owner is actively trying to restrain dog, too) If the OP honestly felt differently, then I would sincerely wish him the best in court.

 

[Four Knives]

Backstop was a thought that had occurred to me when reading the OP as well.
Tricky shot with your heart pumping and the owner 6 feet behind.
If they stopped 20 ft away when OP was just 'beginning the draw', the dog very well would have been in close proximity to your child by the time the gun was out, which makes the shot/bullet splash/ricochet potential even more scary.

 

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

That his first reaction is to reach for his gun in this situation shows that his judgment is too poor to be carrying a weapon. I am a firm believer in RKBA, for defense against immediate lethal threats. A charging dog, even a dreaded "pitbull", does not rise to that level. This is why I carry pepper spray in addition to a firearm. Not every threat that one faces in life deserves to be answered with lethal force. And before the question is asked, yes I have fended off attacks by dogs both open handed and with pepper spray.

Dude, don't be a D.B.
I pepper sprayed a dog once because I mis-judged its intentions, and she sneezed once or twice, then just sat there wagging her tail.

With an animal, pepper spray is not a lightning bolt to the butt hole. It is absolutely unreliable at best.

I agree that he should've ran inside or away, since we can reasonably infer that the lady was at least slowing the dog down and that drawing a gun and firing so close to the pet owner would be stupid, however.

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

Sounds to me like yet another case of "Fido just wants to say hello, panicky gun owner almost does something really bad"

 

[WaMason]

I'm disturbed by any of the posters in this thread who suggest fighting off a dog with your fists or feet excepting the dire situation in which this is your only option.

As someone who worked for an animal control company, and having had my own experience with dog attacks, I would suggest to those who have actual concerns of being involved in a confrontation with a large dog, that these people give proper respect to what the animal is capable of.

Bear spray is advisable being higher in concentration of Capsaicin, and typical canisters contain 5-6 times the amount of product. Additionally the stream itself is more robust. HOWEVER I personally would not feel comfortable standing down a charging dog with only a can of pepper spray in any concentration.

I have personally seen Pitbulls have baseball bats broken over their heads and necks in attempts to separate them from individuals that they are attacking.

I have seen Akitas be grasped by the beck and back scruff and hurled away from large human males, only to return and savage the defender.

I'm sure that in certain instances individuals have turned an animal from an attack using only hand to fang tactics, however I doubt the severity of the animals purpose.

All in all the original poster seemingly handled the incident with aplomb. I would have most likely walked into the house personally, or if the situation called for it contacted animal control and at least documented the aggressive behavior for future reference, however I only say this as how I would have PERSONALLY handled the matter.

The more important issue is how do you now act, knowing the personality of the dog, and its owners inability to control it.

Kimber, I believe wholeheartedly that you should contact your neighbor, make your concerns known, and tell her that you will be contacting animal control to document the situation. Tell her that you don't wish for this situation to escalate, causing a rift between her and your family, and that you are sure she will from there after be able to keep control of her animal, but that you wish the animal control officers to meet with both parties and suggest a solution, and give tips on how better to safely handle the situation.

Taking this action, now knowing that YOUR shackles have been raised, will allow animals control to research the owner, and ascertain whether or not the dog in question or the owner herself has a record of aggression or having under her control aggressive animals, and it allows you some face-time with officers who carry out this line of work daily.

 

[Davek1977]

I hope your right to own a weapon is taken away before you kill someone. You are the poster child for anti-gunners

What a totally absurd comment. If an animal is attempting to attack me, pet or not, I'm not going to hesitate to defend myself or my family. While an akward situation indeed, I'll err on the side of personal safety any day, and if a child is involved, you can bet I'll eliminate the threat before the threat eliminates him or her. Chances are, I'd have a few choice words with the pet's owner as well, as well as making calls to the dept. of animal control in regards to somoene owning a potentially dangerous dog they CANNOT control as evidenced by what transpired. In any event, at least there would be a record of your complaint in case somethng else happens down the line that doesn't end quite as well, and force becomes required. I've seen what others have echoed...dogs unfazed by a burst of pepper spray. if it works, good for you...if it doesn't, you just wasted the few precious seconds you could have used to grab somehting guaranteed to be more effective.

 

[Victor1Echo]

I know a guy who used to feed my neighbor's dog balony. Then the dog got out and went for his chickens. He shot the dog-w/ a 22. The dog ran off and died painfully, and my neighbor almost killed my other neighbor over it. The cops didn't do anything cause he was defending his chickens. This dog was a red boned coon hound--not threatening in my book. BUt a pitbull is a liability.

wHAT YOU NEED TO DO IS:
MAKE FRIENDS WITH THE DOG. SINCE IT IS YOUR NEIGHBOR-YOU CAN FAMILERIZE THE DOG WITH YOU FAMILY. DOGS ARE COOL IF THEY KNOW YOU. PITBULLS CAN BE LOVING AFFECTIONATE DOGS. TRY TO GET TO KNOW THE DOG IN SPITE OF THE OWNERS. MAKE HIM YOUR FRIEND.

aND NO YOU DID NOT DO THE WRONG THING BY GOING FOR THE PEACE.

 

[Colonel]

Kimber, I believe wholeheartedly that you should contact your neighbor, make your concerns known, and tell her that you will be contacting animal control to document the situation. Tell her that you don't wish for this situation to escalate, causing a rift between her and your family, and that you are sure she will from there after be able to keep control of her animal, but that you wish the animal control officers to meet with both parties and suggest a solution, and give tips on how better to safely handle the situation.

Taking this action, now knowing that YOUR shackles have been raised, will allow animals control to research the owner, and ascertain whether or not the dog in question or the owner herself has a record of aggression or having under her control aggressive animals, and it allows you some face-time with officers who carry out this line of work daily.

+1

That way, if and when you do have to dust the dog, at least there's a paper trail.

 

[NukemJim]

1) Kimberdad, from the limited amount of data given it sounds like you did good and appropriate measures i.e. you prepared to use lethal force if needed but did not do so. You also realized when it was not needed by not shooting. In most states that I am aware of use of lethal force is justified when presented with "iminent fear of death and/or grave bodly harm" IMHO a large dog attacking who is out of control is such a situation.

2) For those who are encouraging people to go hand to paw with a large aggressive dog that they do not know and is not obeying the persone who is supposed to be controlling the dog ARE YOU INSANE? Dogs can an do KILL people, they more frequently maim people especially children. I love dogs and have had many. I've also worked in hospitals for many years and seen the death and maiming that dogs can do (don't blame the dogs blame the owner just like guns). I would never want to hurt a dog. To me animal abuse is extremely close to child abuse. But a human life trumps a dogs life in less than a nanosecond. I would not enjoy shooting a dog but then again I would not enjoy shooting a child molester but I would do either in order to prevent an ongoing attack. (for those who do not realize it an approach is the first part of an attack).


NukemJim

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Almost shot neighbor's dog, right or wrong?
My neighbors have a new dog, a pit bull. Yesterday as my son and I were walking down the sidewalk to the truck, we heard barking and growling in the neighbor's yard. I looked over and there was this dog charging us with his owner in tow. She's a small woman and could not slow the dog down. We were in the middle of my sidewalk with no time to get back inside or to the vehicle. I was carrying as usual but really did not want to shoot the dog with its owner a leash length away. I had my hand on my weapon and was just beginning to draw when she finially dug her heels in and stopped her "pet" about twenty feet away. A few more feet and I was going to shoot the dog, thank the Lord I didn't have to. I thanked her for stopping the charge and told her she needed to have more control of her dog. She apologized and got the dog back in her yard, it had managed to pull her about half way across my yard. I do not believe she saw my weapon as I did not draw it out from under my coat. Did I wait too long before acting? What would you have done in this situation?

I don't think it would have mattered if she saw your weapon, from a legal standpoint. Unless you have some very restrictive laws (which I don't recall VA having), you can draw on a threat that poses lethal force or significant bodily harm and a pitbull would qualify.

Did you wait too long? That depends on how fast the dog was traveling. If the dog was stopped at a distance closer to you than you would have been able to draw and fire and well placed shot, then you waited too long (in theory). Then again, the dog was stopped, so you did not wait too long (in the reality of this situation). The difference is that you didn't know if the dog was going to be able to be stopped or not.

FYI, you didn't almost shoot your neighbor's dog. You might have almost made a decision to shoot it, but given that you almost made a decision to draw and never did, you didn't almost shoot it. There is a world of difference between not having drawn a gun and having drawn, aimed, and had a finger on the trigger.

 

[sheepdog]

...I love dogs more than most people ...and more than most people do...and I routinely meet pits on leashes on my knees and hug and pet them..while they wallow all over me...but when one comes at me growling and snarling...that's a threat to be taken seriously...and if the person on the other end of the leash can't control their animal, I can and will, before the dog hurts me, my son, or my dog...we have one of those helpless females in our neighborhood who walks a pit she can barely control...and the dog barks and snarls and lunges at our kids playing...even a coupla houses away...she was told the second time we saw it happen...if the dog pulls away from her...it will be killed...people are exponentially more valuable than dogs...and the people who are watching and waiting are more than capable of shooting the dog without harming innocent bystanders....a barking, growling dog on a leash does not need shooting...once he's free and attacking...it'd be criminal to let him reach his chosen target...and we won't in this neighborhood...opinions to the contrary don't matter...

 

[danbrew]

You know, some dogs shoot back... ('ya know, if they aren't felons and were allowed to carry guns...)

bwwwaaaaaaaahahahahahaahahahahaaaaaaa

heh. couldn't resist.

 

[sheepdog]

Dark Knight...

...what part of growling, barking, and charging while dragging it's owner suggests to you that Fido just wants to say hello? If you weren't being totally sarcastic...you'd LOOOOOve my ex-wife!!!

 

[Gungnir]

I'll chuck in my $0.02

As a dog owner and a gun owner, you did the right thing. I have a big dog, she's a Malamute-Akita cross, 150lbs of dumb canid, can run all day and not get tired, and harnessed she can pull a 10"diameter x 10' log out of the forest.

If she aggressively charged at someone and they pulled a gun at 20 yards away and shot her, I'd be devastated, but, I'd blame myself not the shooter, and I'd blame myself because I didn't do something that could have stopped it. She's huge and if she got out of hand she'd be quite deadly. She's never done this, I don't expect her to, when I use "the voice" or growl she'll stop roll over and show her belly. She knows her place and if she ever came at me, then I'd shoot the damn dog myself, and stick with cats (our 13 year old Russian Blue growls at the dog and the dog rolls over and shows belly too). There's no such thing as good or bad dogs, there are only good or bad owners.

I agree with Double NukemJim, shooting a dog, is shooting a dog, as far as certain comments people have made, well I must say I'm flabbergasted. I'd expect that kind of comment posted at the Huffington Post, by a pro-disarmed victim supporter.

 

[61chalk]

I jumped down after reading about 15 posts....unreal what some of you wrote an believe...I have been attacked an bit 8 times by dogs, mostly in my youth, mostly by neighbors dogs, sometimes twice by the same dogs, mostly off the neighbors property.
I have shot my neighbors dog for attacking me, it had previuosly attacked my wife an children, police had been notified twice an they did nothing. I will never allow any dog to pose a threat to my family...To the OP, contact police an tell them this dog attacke you an your child on your property an you almost shot it to protect yourself. They now have a record of it, please do this. If it happens again you have a record of this happening before. Good nieghbors control their pets an keep them on their property, or under control when off their property. Hopefully your nieghbor will realize the responsibilty THEY have when keeping a dog. Protect yourself an your family, you did the right thing, despite what some Boneheads think of you on this thread.

 

[mgkdrgn]

I hope your right to own a weapon is taken away before you kill someone. You are the poster child for anti-gunners.

Ex flippin 'scuse me?

An out of control dog, strong enough to drag a human, charging me and MY CHILD, IS a lethal threat. Perhaps you want to wait to act until the dog has your child's throat clenched firmly in his jaws, but I won't.

 

[ar10]

I've owned a number of dogs over the years, all died of old age. I've come to the conclusion there are no "bad" dogs but there are bad owners.
Example: A very nice single mother with two sons in their twenty's, have a 5yr old pure bred German Shepard, The dog is never walked, and they keep her on drugs so she won't bark all the time. She has bitten two dogs in the past few months and has been reported to animal control once. Because of her and her lazy sons the dog is pretty much out of control.
I've approached her a couple of times as neighbor and asked if she ever considered giving the dog to someone who would take care of it. Her response was she would think about it. That dog needs a "pack leader".
Would I kill it?? absolutely, if it attacked me. I wouldn't like it but I would do it. And eventually it will get loose again.

 

[Deanimator]

Third, it would be unwise to draw a gun and point it in my direction. At best, I'd press assault charges. And I'm always carrying. That's true of other people, as well, so given that nothing bad happened, nor even came close to really happening, you're far better off to have waited.

An Ohio prosecutor would laugh in your face.

In Ohio at any rate, you don't have ANY duty to be able to "read" strange dogs. You instead have the right to defend yourself from an animal which puts you in reasonable fear of immediate bodily harm.

Don't want your dog shot? Keep it from putting others in reasonable fear of life and limb.

Control your animal or somebody else will do it for you... then sue you (and win) for their trouble.

 

[Deanimator]

Sounds to me like yet another case of "Fido just wants to say hello, panicky gun owner almost does something really bad"

Your comment sounds to me like yet another case of "Dogs are more important than children".

 

[CoRoMo]

You are the poster child for anti-gunners.

...said the guy hoping to strip a free man of his God-given right. Who's the anti?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

...for defense against immediate lethal threats.

Jeffm223 your standard is correct for you for it is set by you, but the legal standard in most of the country, AND for VA where the original post originated is loss or life OR serious physical injury. Serious physical injury is defined as "the threat of the loss of life; permanent disfigurement; the loss of a bodily member or organ; impairment of a bodily part or organ. One does not have to actually experience the harm to use the lethal force, merely recognizing the threat is sufficient. An attempt by the dog to bite, and the dog is from a breed documented in VA case law as capable of maiming a human with a single bite, would be sufficient. As the dog was stopped, and no weapon produced, no harm no foul.

Incidentally, this is why the police carry spray and tasers in addition to firearms

However the police are in no way required to use those options before deciding to go to the use of lethal force (which you seem to imply-perhaps I am wrong?). There is no legal requirment for the police to escalate in a specific order i.e. they don't need to try spray, then TAZER, then go to their guns, and they are trained to a much higher standard than a CCW permit. (BTW the poster was on his own property, and had no obligation in VA to have a CCW permit or training in the first place.) The police are allowed to go directly to lethal force, which includes the threat of serious injury, which is way below an "immediate lethal" threat. Legally the use of lethal force is the same for both the police and a citizen..., what was known by the user, and what was reasonable under the circumstances in the time it was used. All of the comments about dog breeds and what are or are not dangerous dogs is sophistry..., what the poster knew, observed, and concluded, based on HIS experience and knowledge, is what matters.

You are free of course to set your personal bar as high as you wish, but you might consider knowing the actual law and legal expectations before you apply your standard to another person. There are folks who have a personal standard that calls for them to die rather than to use violence in any fashion..., so they would allow the dog to kill them, which is their choice, and they will often tell you it's the only right way to live. Luckily it would only be their opinion.

LD

 

[Deanimator]

And I'm not going to risk killing a stranger or his dog to prevent being bitten a few times.

I'm not going to be bitten ONCE, nevermind "a few times".

And "the courts" are not going to give your kid his or her face back if they're horribly mutilated by a vicious dog. What are you going to tell your kid when they have to wear a bag over their head? "Gee little Suzy, your 'face' scares the other kids at school but the dog that ripped your face off is safe!"

If your large dog puts me in immediate reasonable fear of being bitten while I'm lawfully minding my own business, it's going to get shot and you're going to get sued. I'll have you charged criminally if I can.

If you "love" your dog, keep it from being a threat to others. Otherwise give it to somebody else who will.

 

[Deanimator]

To know the dog is dangerous... then you are ascertaining it's intentions.

The law doesn't require me to "KNOW" that the dog, or YOU are dangerous, only that I have a reasonable belief that either of you are an immediate threat to life and limb.

Your "argument" is oddly reminiscent of that of some Brits with whom I've talked who claim that nobody should EVER be able to use deadly force to defend themselves since you don't REALLY "know" that somebody means to kill or maim you until AFTER they do... and that prior acts aren't sufficiently predictive.

 

[GLOOB]

I'm not going to be bitten ONCE, nevermind "a few times".

As long as one dog bite meets your definition of grave bodily harm. It doesn't meet mine.

And "the courts" are not going to give your kid his or her face back if they're horribly mutilated by a vicious dog. What are you going to tell your kid when they have to wear a bag over their head? "Gee little Suzy, your 'face' scares the other kids at school but the dog that ripped your face off is safe!"

That's why I would stand in between the dog and my child. If the dog goes for your child, rather than you, then what good is your gun? Are you Annie Oakley? Do you really want a loaded gun in your hand while you're trying to get an animal off of your child?

 

[FRJ]

Kimberdad, you did just fine, I don't know where some of the people posting on this subject get their information BUT a pit bull or any other resonably sized dog on the charge, growling with its hackles up is a deadly weapon and once the range is close enough to determine that it is not going to stop its attack put a bullet in its head and several more in its body. You don't have to wait for it to kill your child or yourself. You are my poster boy for your fine handling of a very grave situation. FRJ