Almost shot neighbor's dog, right or wrong?

[Donald Fenton]

kimberdad,
You done good.

If I remember correctly back some years ago (4-5) at the Denver Stock Show they conducted a "dog" pulling contest, it was won be a "pit bull" pulling a 1100 pound (non-wheeled) sled over a given distance.

Something to think about.

Don

 

[Riss]

Well here, at least, defense against a threat of imminent death or serious bodily injury is absolutely reason enough to shoot a dog or person. You do not have to be beaten, eaten or killed FIRST before you are allowed to defend yourself. And IF it had bitten someone, here in PA, that alone is reason enough to have the dog put down immediately. Not that a summary execution of a dog is always called for if it bites someone, but it is permitted in the law.

 

[Deanimator]

As long as one dog bite meets your definition of grave bodily harm. It doesn't meet mine.

It ABSOLUTELY does.

I'm NOT going to get bitten ONCE to protect a dog and the law certainly doesn't require me to.

That's why I would stand in between the dog and my child. If the dog goes for your child, rather than you, then what good is your gun? Are you Annie Oakley? Do you really want a loaded gun in your hand while you're trying to get an animal off of your child?

Oh, so then I should be willing to have MYSELF maimed or mutilated to protect a dog.

There isn't the SLIGHTEST chance that I'm going to do anything WITHOUT a gun that's going to be 1/2 as effective as a gun.

What we've seen in this thread is a vocal minority of people who think that people have a duty to be seriously injured (or have that happen to a child) in order to protect an apparently dangerous animal.

Well my answer is "NO, I refuse". Ohio law at any rate is firmly on MY side.

 

[Deanimator]

A little added legal food for thought:

People who don't control their animals tend to be stupid.

Stupid people tend to have few assets.

That makes them utterly meaningless in terms of civil liability.

For those here who think you're going to get anywhere suing some impecunious imbecile whose dog leaves you unable to work or horribly disfigures your child, get a clue.

You're unlikely to recover ANYTHING. Of course NO amount of money is going to make your kid right when he or she's missing half a face.

But as I said, when you're homeless because you can't work, or your kid looks like Frankenstein's monster, you can comfort yourself with the knowledge that you didn't hurt a vicious dog.

 

[GLOOB]

You jump to a whole lot of conclusions here, which I don't get. I never mentioned money, and frankly didn't consider it at all. I was thinking about if the owner should face charges and whether or not the dog should be put down (rather than YOU deciding in a split second). But now that you mention it, you're taking on a lot of financial risk by using a weapon on someone else's dog, even if you don't hurt anyone else in the process. So maybe the real question is whether YOU have any financial assets, rather than SPECULATING what the owner might or might not have.

I'm NOT going to get bitten ONCE to protect a dog and the law certainly doesn't require me to.

1. No one is asking you to protect the dog. But just because it's "only" a dog, doesn't lower the criteria of when you should draw and use a CCW. If you are attacked by a mouse, go ahead and step on it. But don't draw your CCW to dispatch it.
2. If it doesn't bite you even once, then how do you know it was really going to attack you? Dogs run up and bark. That's what they do. It's territorial. Let's replace the words with "I'm not gonna let a guy hit me even once. Therefore, I will shoot him if he approaches me and yells in anger." Also, that's a whole lot of legal risk. The owner's recollection is going to be way different than yours. To him/her the dog was in complete control, on a lease, and you shot it for barking.

That's where I stand. I personally believe I could prevent injury to my child BETTER without a gun. But to you, this dog was apparently going to maul your child's face off and there was no other way for you to stop it. If I was on the jury, you'd better be a persuasive and likable guy

 

[Mags]

Great, another if that dog was that much closer I would have thread. But I almost and didn't thread. What would you do thread? Oh no he was going to hurt that poor dog thread.

 

[tkkr]

If you honestly believe that you can magicly stop every -pitbull- without using anything but your hands, then you are in for a bigger surprise then when it first started the charge. I would love to watch you try to stop a pitbull as its thrashing your forearm apart, muscle after muscle being ripped away from the bone as you helplessly try to "eye gouge" the dog, it's going to bite most of your fingers off when you try to do that. (can't even draw the gun now, the pain is too much and there isn't much left to grip it with)

Who knows? Maybe the kid might even be able to be stomach it all and move past the shock of seeing his father bleeding to death as the dog slowly makes it way to your throat with the little owner kicking it in the back of the leg, repeatedly screaming its name.

Yeah, maybe the kid can pull the gun out of YOUR holster and finally end the silliness of it all by putting you out of your misery, I dont think you would disagree. After all would you be happy living with only one remaining arm and 2 fingers still attached? That sure would look funny watching you try to fill in the bubbles as you try to vote for Obama for his 2nd term because "you cant use your gun anymore so why should anyone else"

PETA would be proud that we have such strong, upstanding members of society such as yourselves here to defend harmless little Mr.Pitbull in his cute Abercrombie doggy shirt with cutt-off denims whos just trying to greet a friendly neighbor with a friendly growl, complimented with a friendly foaming at the mouth in a firey rage as its friendly little eyes turn bright glowing red. They might even offer you a job to be apart of that PETA whaling show, but maybe thats what you have wanted all along.

 

[Bobandshawn]

Kimberdad - exact same situation three years ago - leashed Pitbull pulling a kid straight for me, my son, and my dog. My dog suffered through several hundred dollars of medical treatment, I was bitten, and my new suit was ruined in a full-on ground scuffle. If I had been carrying...I WOULD HAVE SHOT, AND WILL NOT HESITATE TO DO SO IN THE FUTURE.

All you Dr. Phil wannabees who want to "communicate, evaluate, asess, love thy neighbor, learn about dog psychology, and learn about dog breeds" can do so in the three seconds it takes to close the distance. I'll bring candy to the Emergency Room.

 

[Deanimator]

You jump to a whole lot of conclusions here, which I don't get. I never mentioned money, and frankly didn't consider it at all. I was thinking about if the owner should face charges and whether or not the dog should be put down. But now that you mention it, you're taking on a lot of financial risk by using a weapon on someone else's dog, even if you don't hurt anyone else in the process.

If that dog rips your kid's face off or leaves you unable to work, and the owner gets the DEATH PENALTY, how does that help you OR your kid?

"Gee little Suzy, the other kids hurl when they see your face, but we didn't get sued by the people who own the dog that tore you to shreds!"

1. No one is asking you to protect the dog. But just because it's "only" a dog, doesn't lower the criteria of when you should draw and use a CCW. If you are attacked by a mouse, go ahead and step on it. But don't draw your CCW to dispatch it.

That's EXACTLY what you're asking me to do. In FACT, I've been asked to let a dog BITE me, a "FEW" times.

2. If it doesn't bite you even once, then how do you know it was really going to attack you?

If the man with the butcher knife charging at you doesn't ACTUALLY stab you, then how do you know he was really going to attack you?

I don't need to "KNOW". I just need to reasonably believe.

Dogs run up and bark. That's what they do.

If they do it on public property in a way that causes the public to be in reasonable fear of life and limb, they may be shot for it.

What part of "control your animal" don't you understand?

Your dog is YOUR responsibility. Exercise that responsibility, or your dog may pay the consequences for YOUR negligence or malice.

I'm always baffled by the assertion that I should pander to the malignant narcissism of total strangers. You sound strangely like those who claim that they should be able to get stupid drunk, kick in my front door at 3:00am and NOT get shot.

Let's replace the words with "I'm not gonna let a guy hit me even once.

It depends upon the correlation of force.

If there's a disparity of force, the State of Ohio will (outside of my home) expect me to try to withdraw if I can do so IN PERFECT SAFETY. If you thwart that attempt and present a reasonable fear of my being beaten to death or seriously injured, you're going to get shot. And NO, I don't have to let you hit me ONCE.

 

[AirForceShooter]

I would have had my gun out and be pulling the trigger.
A pit out of control is a dangerous weapon.
A very dangerous weapon. You kid could have been hamburger in about 3 more seconds.
One shot will not stop a pit.

My suggestion is to call the cops , tell them what happened and put the event on official record.

AFS

 

[Bobandshawn]

+1 on the report. Good move that I forgot to make...

 

[GLOOB]

No, I didn't ask you to let the dog bite you a few times. That's what I would be willing to endure before even thinking about trying to shoot a dog with its owner actively trying to restrain it on the other end of the leash. But to ME, a dog running up and barking is the same as a drunk in a bar bumping chests with you for making eye contact. You skip a couple steps if you immediately draw and shoot. Again, that's just me. I respect the life of a stranger, and I respect the life of a dog. Not asking anyone else to be me.

The fact that 1 shot will not stop an attacking pit is something I agree with. So you intend you take multiple shots on a running/jumping pitbull, with owner in tow, before it gets to you. Continue shooting while it's pulling you around. Not smart with your child nearby.

Or are you waiting for it to do its dog thing... Stop and bark at you like dogs do, so you can shoot it between the eyes.

I've been around a friendly pit bull, and I was scared when it was jumping around me and smelling me. So yeah, I know pits are very large and dangerous. But pulling a handgun can increase the chances of a serious injury and I probably wouldn't do that unless I was approached by a dog in the woods with no one else around to help (2 other people nearby when this happened who are actively trying to help you ARE going to be in the line of fire). If I drew in this situation it would be at the point where the owner of the dog would have thanked god I had a gun, because she realized she could not control her dog. Yeah, the dog might be super dog and maul all 3 of us to death with a grin. I have yet to see a case where a single dog has killed an adult able-bodied human being. (One case where 2 pits killed an adult 100 pound female.)

 

[NukemJim]

As long as one dog bite meets your definition of grave bodily harm. It doesn't meet mine.

I've cared for a girl that was only bitten once. Her face and left eye were bitten. She lost the eye. Plastic surgeons were working on her face the last time I saw her. Losing an eye IS "grave bodily harm" or "Maiming" depending on what state you live in.

If you want to let a dog bite you once go ahead be my guest. Just one question please, how do you know the dog will only bite once?

If it doesn't bite you even once, then how do you know it was really going to attack you?

Have you heard of the term "reasonable and prudent man" and what he would believe? If you point a gun at me say "I'm gonna kill you" and I do not have to wait until you shoot me before I am legally allowed to use lethal/deadly force on you. Does not matter that you were joking or that it was an airsoft gun or that the gun was unloaded. It is what a reasonable and prudent man (or woman ) would believe. Like it don't like so sorry but that is the way it is in most (if not all) of the US.

I say again Kimberdad, Ya Done Good!

NukemJim

 

[Jonah71]

That his first reaction is to reach for his gun in this situation shows that his judgment is too poor to be carrying a weapon. I am a firm believer in RKBA, for defense against immediate lethal threats. A charging dog, even a dreaded "pitbull", does not rise to that level. This is why I carry pepper spray in addition to a firearm. Not every threat that one faces in life deserves to be answered with lethal force. And before the question is asked, yes I have fended off attacks by dogs both open handed and with pepper spray.

Did you not see the part about his son being with him? In the same situation my hand would have been on my gun too. And I would not have had a problem shooting the dog in defense of my son. I've been carrying a gun for almost 40 years. I've been badly injured in a fight that hospitalized me for several hours, yet at no point did I even consider drawing or using my gun. Taking a beating is better than taking a life. But then......my son wasn't there and was in no danger. Had he been there, or the object of the beating, they would have had about the same chances as the dog! I don't take pulling my gun lightly....but it's not there to make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside either.

 

[Jonah71]

Sorry....I hit the wrong "quote" key. I was referring to the stupid comment {" I hope your right to carry is taken away....wherever that was lol)

 

[Cosmoline]

I looked over and there was this dog charging us with his owner in tow.

Here's the problem. "OWNER IN TOW." What you are proposing is shooting live ammunition towards a human who herself is no threat to you. In those circumstances you simply have to get your kid away and do your best with the dog with the owner's help. You end up with a dead woman on the other end of the leash and you're going to prison for the rest of your natural life.

Shooting a dog is one thing. Shooting a dog with an owner on the other end of the leash is an entirely different matter. It cannot be done with any degree of safety. If you wait until the dog is mauling you, your shots will be down towards your own legs and feet assuming you can make them at all. If you fire as the dog approaches you're going to be in an A-B-C line with the owner "C", and you're going to be firing at a shallow angle at a rapidly moving target. Hit B and you can hit C too. Miss B and you can hit C. Even a near miss is enough to qualify for charges. It's reckless at the very least.

There are simply some situations where a firearm is not the tool for the job. This is one of them.

 

[NavyLCDR]

you're going to prison for the rest of your natural life

1. Not if I'm on the jury.

2. I'll take that chance rather than have my children bear the scars (mental and physical) of a dog attack for the rest of their lives.

 

[gatorjames85]

As long as one dog bite meets your definition of grave bodily harm. It doesn't meet mine.

A dog bite in the right place can be just as lethal as a gunshot wound.

 

[Cosmoline]

2. I'll take that chance rather than have my children bear the scars (mental and physical) of a dog attack for the rest of their lives.

You don't think seeing Daddy blow a woman's head off is going to scar the kid for the rest of his life?

The dog is not a felon, and the owner is not a criminal on a joint enterprise. You remain 100% responsible for each round you fire. Shooting towards a person who is not presenting a threat to you, but is in fact trying her best to PREVENT the threat, is not a good shot. It should not be taken.

Furthermore, the rules of self defense have nothing to do with this fact pattern. NOTHING. They apply when dealing with a human, not an animal. In this case all humans involved are trying to stop the beast. One of these humans is in the direct line of fire of the other. Therefore the shot cannot be taken. You have to use your legs, your walking stick, or whatever else you have. There is no justification for shooting towards the woman, and if you hit her the rules of self defense will not avail you.

Now if you can get to the side of the dog with the woman on your flank, fire away. But the leash under tension and dog running towards you creates a natural A-B-C line and makes a shot impossible to make with any degree of safety. Most people seriously overestimate their ability to fire accurately with short guns under pressure.

 

[GLOOB]

Why is everyone harping on the child being bitten and disfigured?

That's my whole point.

I, personally, would feel more confident protecting my child with by body rather than a bullet. IF the dog locks on and can be pinned into a relatively immobile position, only then would a shot be considered.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

wasn't there wasn't my kid i'm in no position to make any judgement but it seems as though there was a measured response or actually a preparation to respond. likely i woulda done the same. no dogs were hurt . folks need to be able to control their dogs many can't

 

[Utah1]

Here's the problem. "OWNER IN TOW." What you are proposing is shooting live ammunition towards a human who herself is no threat to you. In those circumstances you simply have to get your kid away and do your best with the dog with the owner's help. You end up with a dead woman on the other end of the leash and you're going to prison for the rest of your natural life.

Shooting a dog is one thing. Shooting a dog with an owner on the other end of the leash is an entirely different matter. It cannot be done with any degree of safety. If you wait until the dog is mauling you, your shots will be down towards your own legs and feet assuming you can make them at all. If you fire as the dog approaches you're going to be in an A-B-C line with the owner "C", and you're going to be firing at a shallow angle at a rapidly moving target. Hit B and you can hit C too. Miss B and you can hit C. Even a near miss is enough to qualify for charges. It's reckless at the very least.

There are simply some situations where a firearm is not the tool for the job. This is one of them.

NO they won't be goining to jail. In some states it will be ruled justified. In others you'll have legal problems that will cost you alot in attorney's fees. I'll spend all of my money before I let a child get chewed up. In the liberal-anti gun states, you won't be armed anyway, you'll be chewed up, and if your kid is still alive, they'll be scarred for live around the face, neck, hands, arms, and legs. Guess what states the posters that advocate not using a weapon live.

 

[sheepdog]

...there's a lot of horse hockey being spewed here by someone sitting safely in his computer chair that's based on high-minded, kind and gentle ideas...I wonder how it would read if you had been the one in your own yard and had a growling, barking dog charge you and your child...being barely restrained by a lady...I'll bet a lot of this crap wouldn't enter your mind...you wouldn't want to be bitten...wouldn't want your child to be bitten...and, if you're the right kind of man, would do anything possible to stop it...reality has a way of slapping sense into most of us...may you not have to learn that way...I'd kill every dog in the world if that's what it would take to keep my child safe...and I HOPE you would, too...

 

[Cosmoline]

In some states it will be ruled justified.

Which states? This isn't about the stupid dog, it's about the human on the other end of the leash. She isn't presenting an imminent unlawful deadly threat--her dog is. She's trying her best to stop the animal. You can and should help her, and defend your child. But you CANNOT TAKE THE SHOT. It's not a good shot. Use alternative methods.

Look, if this was a brown bear on a leash coming at me I'd still have to rely on pepper spray. You do not shoot at or towards human people unless they are presenting an imminent unlawful threat of deadly force. Pulling as hard as you can on a leash to stop an animal does not qualify.

if you're the right kind of man, would do anything possible to stop it

I'm the kind of man who knows bullets cannot be taken back. I've been bitten by powerful guard dogs before. I know the power of a big dog, and I know I'd likely get mauled if the charge is not a bluff. But in that case I'd gladly take the risk of getting bit again to protect both the child AND the hapless owner of the dog. I'm not going to go capping off rounds towards a human who is trying to stop a dangerous animal. Not going to happen.

 

[mcdonl]

If kicking isn't your thing, you could even be so bold as to grab the dog by the neck with both hands and wring it into oblivion. You could gouge it's eyes out with your thumbs. You could break one of the legs. Show no mercy towards aggression.

Does this apply if this same scenario involved a 19 year old male charging you as well?

And I'm not going to risk killing a stranger or his dog to prevent being bitten a few times. If it occurs, the courts can decide what happens to the dog and/or owner, not me.

Does this apply if this same scenario involved a 19 year old male charging you as well?

I'll take that chance rather than have my children bear the scars (mental and physical) of a dog attack for the rest of their lives.

I have worked in health care for 15 years, and have seen the scars. I would take the chance as well... given the appropriate shot presentation.

Now if you can get to the side of the dog with the woman on your flank, fire away. But the leash under tension and dog running towards you creates a natural A-B-C line and makes a shot impossible to make with any degree of safety.

Cosmoline... I agree with your assessment of the shot. I have to ask though, when you made this statement were you assuming the gun was drawn and ready (Waiting for the safe shot) or holstered waiting for the safe shot?

If I saved my child's life or saved her from the chance of permanent damage I would also assume with it the consequences. I do not carry to be cool, I carry to protect me and my family. I would do everything in my power to prevent breaking the law and going to jail, but my children's safety would come first.