Alternate pistol actions

[Flechette]

In the evolution of handgun design many different actions were explored. The actions that have settled in as "normal" are only a few: Browning short recoil, direct blowback and double action revolvers.

But many other actions were tried.

Blow forward: Schwarzlose:



Semi auto revolvers: Webley Fosbery

Rotating firing pin: COP derringer:



Gas delayed recoil: HK P7



Internal cylinder revolver: Cobray Pocket Pal



Toggle lock: Luger



Break open revolvers:

Bottom break: S&W Model One:



Top Break: S&W Model Two:

What alternate actions do you like and what do you think could be resurrected as a modern product?

Remember, with modern manufacturing techniques like 3D printing many designs that failed to catch on because they were "too expensive" can be made much more cost effective today.

 

[1KPerDay]

How about the Remington model 51?

 

[MAKster]

Don't forget the Beretta rotating barrel design used on the Px4 and Cougar.

 

[Jim Watson]

Remington made an effort to resurrect the Pedersen action in the cheaply made R51. It is still in limbo.

The rotating barrel goes back to the Steyr Hahn that I know of offhand, maybe earlier.

There are a few rotating bolt handguns out there, the Desert Eagle and Automag frex.

P38 and Beretta 51 and 92 with separate locking block.

There were revolvers that unbreeched in novel ways. I particularly like the one whose cylinder swung out on a vertical axis. There was an effort to bring back the Merwin Hulbert that failed and there were others tried before the swing out hand ejector design took over.

Iver Johnson made a "trigger cocking" revolver in which the first pull on the trigger revolved the cylinder and cocked the hammer, the second pull fired.

 

[Flechette]

How about the Remington model 51?

For general info, the Remington 51:

 

[oss117]

I believe the Walther CCP uses a gas-delayed blowback system similar to the HK P7.

 

[barnbwt]

What alternate actions do you like and what do you think could be resurrected as a modern product?

Remember, with modern manufacturing techniques like 3D printing many designs that failed to catch on because they were "too expensive" can be made much more cost effective today.

FYI, metallic 3D printing is the absolute LAST technique I'd pursue for cost-sensitive reasons --it's slightly cheaper than from-scratch hand-fabrication

The R51 springs to mind the most; it is almost entirely a scaled up copy of the Model 51, apart from some improvements to the bolt design (and production quality more reminiscent of the Soviet slave-shops than the original's care & quality of the American Gilded Age). I doubt 3D printing could help it, but it's worth mentioning that practically the entire gun --including the breechblock-- besides the slide & frame was made using MIM, which is honestly kind of a benchmark in its own way (and in my estimation, the production issues mostly stemmed from the machining operations, rather than these parts)

Someone mentioned the Steyr Hahn; it had another cool feature with it's internal fixed magwell. If overwhelmed, confound your enemies by spraying your remaining ammunition out the top of the gun in a fountain of fail at the mere press of a button!

TCB

 

[Flechette]

If overwhelmed, confound your enemies by spraying your remaining ammunition out the top of the gun in a fountain of fail at the mere press of a button!

LOL!

 

[Jim K]

The Steyr-Hahn (Steyr Hammer) had a rotating barrel predecessor, the Roth-Steyr, which saw use by the Austro-Hungarian cavalry, and the Luger was an upgraded Borchardt. The Roth-Steyr was an ancestor of another pistol in some ways - its partially cocked striker firing system was copied by one Herr Glock who made a few guns using it.

Jim

.

 

[Jim Watson]

Also the rising/falling locking block of the Bergman Bayard, Lahti, and Strike One.

The Mexican Obregon has a rotating barrel in spite of its resemblance to 1911.

There were the Argentine Mannlichers with their idea of retarded blowback.

Mann, High Standard, Detonics, and Seecamp chamber ring to delay blowback.

 

[barnbwt]

CZ52, with a miniaturized MG42-style lockup, and HK P9, with a miniaturized CETME-style roller delay

Also the Steyr GB gas-delay of Rogak infamy (see again, R51)

TCB

 

[barnbwt]

Lone Eagle single shot target pistol used a rotating cannon-style breech (think of those plastic-egg toy dispenser machine handles) with a length of about 3/4" past the breech face. Would you believe that pistol there came chambered in 30-06?

TCB

 

[Jim K]

The Remington Model 51, the Savage pistols, the S&W .35 and ,32, the Infallible pistols, all had one thing in common - they were designed to evade the Colt-Browning patents; ultimately, Browning's systems prevailed.

(Remington seems to have learned that the Pedersen design of the Model 51 only appears to be simple. That is a delusion; it is anything but.)

Incidentally, the Schwarzlose blow-forward pistols are among the most frustrating, demanding close tolerances and failing at the slightest wear. They seem to me to be the products of an inventor who was determined to make a bad idea work, no matter what.

Jim

 

[Quiet]

Daewoo K-5, Daewoo DP-51, Daewoo DP-51C, Daewoo DH-40, S&T Daewoo K-5, S&T Motiv K-5, S&T Motive SDP-9, Lionheart Industries LH9, Lionheart Industries LH9-MKII, Lionheart Industries LH9C.

Those pistols use what's been called (depending on who imported it) "fast fire", "triple-action", and "double-action plus (DA+)".

Operates like a traditional DA/SA, but with the following additional function...
When the hammer is cocked back, it can be physically moved forward (hammer down position), this sets a light double-action trigger pull.

SA trigger pull weight = approx. 3 lbs
DA trigger pull weight = approx. 14 lbs
DA+ trigger pull weight = approx. 5 lbs

 

[Flechette]

Daewoo K-5, Daewoo DP-51, Daewoo DP-51C, Daewoo DH-40, S&T Daewoo K-5, S&T Motiv K-5, S&T Motive SDP-9, Lionheart Industries LH9, Lionheart Industries LH9-MKII, Lionheart Industries LH9C.

Those pistols use what's been called (depending on who imported it) "fast fire", "triple-action", and "double-action plus (DA+)".

Operates like a traditional DA/SA, but with the following additional function...
When the hammer is cocked back, it can be physically moved forward (hammer down position), this sets a light double-action trigger pull.

SA trigger pull weight = approx. 3 lbs
DA trigger pull weight = approx. 14 lbs
DA+ trigger pull weight = approx. 5 lbs

Sounds similar to the Walther P99.

The P99 can be fully cocked (striker) with the trigger fully forward. This gives a "double-action" (i.e. long) trigger pull that is very light compared to the true double-action trigger pull (which cocks the striker) which it can also do. So it has a SA, DA and DA+ trigger like the guns you quoted.

 

[JohnKSa]

The Grand Power K100 rotating barrel design which does not require a locking block. Rotating barrels are fairly unusual to begin with, and in handguns, they almost all require some sort of locking block.

Grand Power figured out a design that used a pin to rotate the barrel and eliminated the locking block. That lets the barrel sit much lower than in other rotating barrel designs.

The Boberg design pulls the rounds out of the magazine to the rear and then lifts them up and inserts them into the chamber. The result is a longer barrel for a given handgun size since the barrel can actually extend backwards over the magazine.

 

[Flechette]

The Grand Power K100 rotating barrel design which does not require a locking block. Rotating barrels are fairly unusual to begin with, and in handguns, they almost all require some sort of locking block.

Grand Power figured out a design that used a pin to rotate the barrel and eliminated the locking block. That lets the barrel sit much lower than in other rotating barrel designs.

The Boberg design pulls the rounds out of the magazine to the rear and then lifts them up and inserts them into the chamber. The result is a longer barrel for a given handgun size since the barrel can actually extend backwards over the magazine.

I was not aware of either of these two guns. Thanks!

 

[mjsdwash]

Frommer Stop,Borchardt C-93, beretta Px4, colt ace come to mind for interesting designs

 

[RON in PA]

Mauser C-96 and I believe the Japanese Nambu pistols were a derivative. The falling block lock-up of the P-38, Beretta 1951 and 92 are based on the Mauser IMHO.

 

[Jim Watson]

And the Boberg's rear magazine reminds of the Gabbett Fairfax Mars.

 

[BobWright]

As far as what's been tried in revolver mechanisms, not mentioned was the Webley top-break that had a stationary cylinder that pulled forward for extraction, and the Merwin Hulbert with the rotating barrel that pulled forward. Both of these systems required single loading of cartridges through a loading gate.

Iver Johnson had a pivoting cylinder that swung out on a center post and allowed multiple loading of the chambers. Believe it was a push down action to empty the empty hulls.

Some revolver actions had a trigger that cocked the hammer for single action fire, not a true "double action" as we know it today.

What we have today is what survived, what proved reliable and workable.

Bob Wright

 

[Rembrandt]

Desert Eagle to my knowledge is the only gas operated handgun....

 

[Flechette]

Desert Eagle to my knowledge is the only gas operated handgun....

I think that the Automag had an annular piston gas-action design, or maybe I am thinking of the Wildey...

 

[Twiki357]

Flechette: What alternate actions do you like and what do you think could be resurrected as a modern product?

Since, it seems, no one has addressed your question of “What could be resurrected” I’ll insert my two cents.

I would like to see the S&W top-break brought back. With modern materials (alloys) and machining (CNC, etc.) it could be made strong enough to handle modern ammunition. I would think that the top-break could be a practical design for todays market. It would have the advantage of the spring loaded case ejection and with todays speed loaders, a reload would probably be quicker than with the manual ejection of the swing out cylinder.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Dardick gun. This was a revolver (sort of) with the chamber sides exposed so that rounds could be fed into the cylinder from the side. The cartridge was inserted into a 3-sided nylon or aluminum device called a "tround" and the chamber was 3-sided to match. The gun had a double magazine, and as the cylinder rotated, it picked up fresh rounds from the magazines. You could load one magazine while shooting from the other.