Am I gonna win or lose this bet?

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Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow

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I am constantly raggin' on my buddy who collects (and pays exhorbitant prices for) those blessed-directly-by-the-hand-of-god, nothing-on-earth-can-even-come-close-to-comparing, Pre-'64 Winchester model 70s.

He in turn rags on me for buying "those crappy old military guns", referring to milsurp turnbolts.

So I bet him $100 that my "military gun" (which will be a Swiss K31 with the wood loosened via a spacer between the forend clamp/screw, to "free-float" the barrel), with "surplus ammo" (which will be GP11) will outshoot any Pre-64 Winchester of his with premium factory ammo. :evil:

ASSUMING EQUAL SKILL, and assuming he has many of them (he does), and he picks a known shooter, and assuming my K31/GP11 is a "typical" gun and ammo lot, who do you think will come home with an extra C-note?

:)
 
tough call the k31 can be really good as can the 70 let us know what happens.
 
Both scoped? Otherwise it's not really a fair bet. If both are with open sights I'd say it will come down to the shooter.
 
Assuming both have the same sighting setup (similar scopes or iron), I'd say it's a mexican standoff. You'll literally be measuring millimeters to determine a winner.

My bet... it'll be so close that the bet's off.


-T.
 
I'm on the winny... simply because not that it may be more accurate, but if he has had them a long time, he knows which is going to really shoot well, and he will be used to it.
 
hmmmmmm..... Tough one, sounds like your friend is used to shooting those Winchesters. I don know , man. Good luck. I honestly think this is going to come down to the shooter.


Just for information purposes, what calibers are his Winchesters in?
 
WELL what kind of groups are YOU getting from your k-31?
 on average, not best ever


If I were betting on two unknown rifles my money will be on the winchester. Contrary to popular belief I've found that the accuracy milsurp rifles varies GREATLY even amongst certain central and northern European models. Of the two K-31's I had owned neither were what I would call sub moa by any stretch of the imagination. Old commercial guns as a whole are more constant in how they were treated and as a result accuracy is more dependable as well, especally in light of your buddy collecting very good examples
 
Premium - If you really want to see which rifle shoots best, you and your friend should make a gentleman's agreement and both of you shoot groups with each rifle. The agreement being that both will try their very best with each rifle.
 
Or, give them to a third party who is neutral and can shoot well.

Mechanically, I have no idea which will win. If you did a good job of tweaking the K31 for accuracy, and he has done no tweaking to his Winchester, you may have the edge.

Either way, I bet he'll be surprised.

Mike
 
I just reread your OP. If he's picking a "known shooter", you'll probably be in trouble.

Mike
 
I'd say your in trouble if for nothing else if rifles are equal you shooting milsurp ammo against well for instance a 308 with federal goldmedal 168 match ammo.
 
WELL what kind of groups are YOU getting from your k-31?
Click to expand...

I don't know! I haven't shot it since I put the scope mount and scope on it! It's slated as one of the top 4 or 5 next guns to test on the next range trips. [My groups weren't too hot with irons before, but I can't count that for much, with my rather poor eyesight].

I like the idea of we each shoot a group with each rifle, trying our best - I'll see if he will go for that - I'll dig this thread back up, win or lose, and post after the "match". :)

I would just give *anything* to put a shocked look on his face and make him eat crow about my "military" guns - "why do you like those things, anyway?". I want him to answer his own question.
 
I think he will be surprised, but I also think he is probably going to win this contest, assuming that the shooters are up to the task.

With that being said, it's going to be an awfully close thing, and I personally don't buy into the whole pre-64 mythos. They are good rifles, but it's not as if post-64 rifles were piles of crap that couldn't shoot, although I am sure a pre-64 purist would argue the point.
 
Since you've never shot your K-31 with the scope mounted, I'm thinking your buddy's gonna win. Besides, if he's shooting a "known shooter," it's really tilting it in his favor.

I'm still cheering you on, though! :D
 
I have a pre 64 Mod 70 featherweight in '06 that dad got for me when I finished high school in 63. It was my first centerfire, and I learned to reload for it( had to in order to afford to shoot). During my college years I developed some sub moa loads for it, both jacketed bullets and cast.

I now have seveal K-31's and one Swiss 1911 and think with open sights the 1911 would win, with my scope on the Mod 70 it has the edge. My k-31's are not quite that accurate.
 
Ah, a little more info makes this more interesting:
I haven't shot it since I put the scope mount and scope on it! It's slated as one of the top 4 or 5 next guns to test on the next range trips. [My groups weren't too hot with irons before, but I can't count that for much, with my rather poor eyesight]
Click to expand...
Do you have an umpire you can ask to hold the money in advance? I'd like to send in my C note to get in on the action. ;)

In other words, why would you bet on a rifle that you've never shot with a scope and that gets less than satisfactory groups as far as you know?
 
Just ego, I guess. I'll probably lose, but it'll be fun either way. Who wants to hold the money for us? :)

Oh but hang on....the so-so groups were with irons AND with S&B (IIRC) ammo, not GP11, so the ammo wasn't optimized for the rifle. Dang I gotta get to the range more. Part of me wants to hoard the GP11 and not shoot it though. :p
 
In other words, why would you bet on a rifle that you've never shot with a scope and that gets less than satisfactory groups as far as you know?
Click to expand...

I have to agree there. The K-31's are very well built guns, but his winny has a better mounting system for the optics, and he'll probably pick a rifle/ammo combo that he knows will produce accuracy. OTOH, if you had a K-31 sniper variant (the Zkf55) and match ammo, you'd have a real good chance of taking home some ammo money.

I don't know that I'd put any of my standard milsurps up against Rem 700's, Win 70's, Savages, Rugers, Weatherby's, etc. They're just not manufactured to the same specifications as a modern sporting rifle.
 
I'd put my money on the Winchester and the guy who owns it. Sounds like he might know his rifle better than you do.
 
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