Am I gonna win or lose this bet?

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i have some pre-64 m70's, and i think they are ok rifles. there's lots about them that i do not like, but their accuracy is not one of the things i dislike. they are generally very good shooters.

while i think you will lose this bet horribly, i do applaud your efforts to get out and have some fun w/ these rifles, and i think it would be wonderful if you were able to shoot well enough to scare your friend a little...
 
You've lost! In your very first sentence you critique you competitors reasoning for buying what he does. Yet you are basing your confidence in your rifle NOT on how it's shot previously but instead on some postings on the interweb. All the K-31 fanboy posts in the world don't tell you SQUAT about how YOUR rifle will group.

As I've said before, the proof is on the paper.
 
"You've lost" :confused:

Whoa Krochus, me Hearty !

Granted, Premiumsauce may have a lot on his plate... but, as you've so wisely pointed out... the proof is on the paper. Let's get it on the paper before we decide what it proves. :D

I have vivid recollections of the day a hotshot with a $3000 Skeet gun got beaten by nobody with a battlescarred Winchester Model 12 - 16ga. - no rib.
Don't ask me what his name was.

:banghead:
 
If your K-31 has been tweaked and tuned to get the best accuracy and you were very familiar with the rifle, it will probably be capable of better accuracy than the Mod 70.

The model 70 are nice and really well made, but as far as hunting rifle accuracy goes, they aren't any better than any mass produced rifle today where you can expect a 1.5-2 moa accuracy at best*. The K-31 pretty much matches that.

*I hear unending claims about hunting rifles with sporting weight barrels that shoot '1 moa all day long' but have never actually seen one of these critters in real life.
 
Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters are beloved because their quality & craftsmanship have come to represent the Golden Age of American Manufactured factory offerings. The K-31 legend revolves more around its machined precision. The line should be 4-to-1 odds because of the PRICE difference. If I got those odds, my money would be all over the K-31. At even odds? It's a coin-toss. Good Luck!
 
Tee hee, this is gonna be fun. I'm calling him today to try to make him commit to a specific date, time, and ground rules (how to measure groups, how to shoot - lead sled, each guy with 1 group on each gun - etc.). He doesn't know his rifles that well, actually. He buys and sells them a lot. Mostly buys. But he knows them better than I know this K31, that much is true, since I haven't shot it with either a scope or GP11. I made that bet mostly because he was shooting off his mouth about how I waste my money on milsurps, and he wouldn't listen to me when I explained that post-70 (or is it post-71?) Winchester 70s are the same as the pre-64s, so he's paying a premium for really no reason, other than an artificial collector bubble, which will eventually deflate. Ghost Tracker, I will try to get some odds like that -that makes sense to me.
 
You loose.

Having shot my K31's extensively, and my pre 64's, a properly bedded, scoped, standard grade pre 64 (in a non magnum caliber) will shoot tighter groups than a K31.

The groups walk on my featherweight. Lightweight barrel and all.

And if your bud had a National Match pre 64, you don't have a chance.

Mine would not be legal as I replaced the barrel and stock, but in factory 30-06 configuration it was capable of sub MOA.

Incidentally, take your K31 to a 100 yard reduced match. I have. My club has an "old Bolt Gun" match once a year. The M1903A3's are the consistant winners. When I shot my K31, I was at least thirty points behind my normal A3score.

Shoot that thing standing, sitting, prone rapid, and prone rapid fire All that twisting and pulling really changes the point of impact and group size. Since the K31 fanboys don't get off the bench, they don't see this.

The K31 is an excellent surplus rifle. It is not however a target rifle.
 
Good luck. I hope you win but my gut says that when the dust settles, your wallet's gonna be a C note lighter.

And Slamfire1 is right. Off a bench, a K31 will shoot 1-2 MOA groups. You put that sling on and get into position and everything changes. It has to do with the torque placed on the stock which causes it to contact the barrel. If you really take pains to float the barrel and bed the action, you'll notice some improvement from position.
 
I have vivid recollections of the day a hotshot with a $3000 Skeet gun got beaten by nobody with a battlescarred Winchester Model 12 - 16ga. - no rib.
Click to expand...
Shotguns are a totally different ball game. Fine wood and balance do count for something, but at the end of the day this is a poor analogy. A $3,000 skeet gun still lobs a hundred or so pellets out and will put x number of them in a 30 inch circle depending on distance and choke. The end result of # of pellets in the same size circle with an H&R wal mart single shot of same gauge and choke would be about the same.

As far as the competition here, if nothing else the ammo will likely make the difference. My 700 5r will shoot in the .4's with Black Hills match, and shoots over 1.5moa with military surplus.
 
You're toast dude. You gave him too many ways to beat you; introduced too many variables. Even left it open for him to use a match rifle! Now if you had said a pre-64 of similar caliber, with non-premium ammo (or premium ammo for yourself), I think it would be about the shooter. I might even put $100 on you then.

And I'll prove I'm a heretic.....I have a couple of pre-64 Model 70s, and neither of them will outshoot my modern Savages.
 
I don't know? I was at a hunter sight in day event at Tri-County gun club here in Oregon and this guy walks up to my bench with an old Mauser. I thought boy this is going to be intersting. He then proceeded to produce a 5 shot group at 100 yards with open sights that was better than most guys were getting with modern scoped rifles. Gave me a whole new respect for milsurps. It was actually a Swedish sniper rifle.
 
Maybe the 'known shooter" confound can be removed by you and the other guy agreeing that the tightest group, shot by either of you, with either rifle, ALSO gets $100. That removes the incentive for either of you to "not try as hard" with the other's rifle.
 
Kosh75287 said:
That removes the incentive for either of you to "not try as hard" the other's rifle.
Click to expand...

If it's a gentleman's bet, I don't see that being an issue regardless of how they carry this thing out.


-T.
 
My father's 1952-vintage Model 70 in .220 Swift will very reliably put five shots into 3/4 MOA with 1975-vintage reloads. Not rarely, half MOA. I know that half-MOA with fresh handloads is nearly an "always" with three-shot groups. I figure that's not bad for an old-guy smoker with coffee nerves. :D

If a K-31 will beat that, bet on it...

Art
 
As noted before, IMO the #1 factor for accuracy is the quality of the bullet itself.

How much does a typical car tire and rim weigh? Maybe 20-25 pounds? If you've got that much weight, how could an ounce make any difference? Well, go out and take the wheel weights off your rims and drive at 60 mph and you'll find out. Tire spins at maybe 750-800 rpm.

That itty bitty bullet is spinning at maybe 180,000 rpm.

Now, still the biggest unknown in this side show is still operator error.
 
You are shooting one of the best military rifles ever made but I doubt it has what it takes to beat a target grade model 70. If it's just a standard model 70 then I would say the odds are even.
 
The only way you've got to beat him is if you change the rules slightly: it's not just the rifle, but rifle + shooter - and you're a noticeably better shot than he is.

Either that, or he flubs the event, picking a bad rifle/ammo combination, or his scope is FUBAR.

IMO your only way for you to beat him is if you get on the range and practice, practice, practice with that rifle. Figure out which ammo you've got shoots best in it, and make sure you're intimately familiar with the trigger, recoil, fit, POI, scope, etc.
 
Hey Premium...


You could always help your amigo beat himself.

Get to the range and before anyone shoots make some offhand comment like; "Well as long as I can remember to synchronize my trigger pull with my heartbeat (or breathing), I'll be fine". Anything to get him thinking about something rather than just doing it. Great tactic - has saved me many times on the golf course. LOL! :D

:evil:
 
I beat a buddy with a Styer Pro hunter with a Swaroski scope on it at 150 yards with my SKS. It can be done. Just pray he has a flier. That and round count matters. He probably had 40 rounds through his gun at the time and mine had at least 500. That and use good ammo. Winchester is going to lose to Lupua every time unless the gun shooting Lupua is terrible.
 
I have an old model 70 that was my grandfathers sitting in the safe. This thread has made me ashamed to say I have never shot it but it has also made me really want to get it out.

I am also excited to see how this match turn out.
 
Remember, Premium, when you win this match, the $100 buys a round of "adult beverages" for THR folks... :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

The idea of both of you guys shooting a 5-shot string through each rifle will show who is the better shooter. "...'Tis the Indian, not the arrow..." or something like that.

Be sure to allow enough time between shot strings to get both rifles back to cool barrel state.
 
Shawnee has the right idea; You can still win this despite the rifle differences. It's all in the gamesmanship, a.k.a. cheating to the sore losers ;). For example: you could have a target already set up at "200 yards" (which was accidentally placed at 250) as a 3rd group, shooting a 1 shot bullseye with your own rifle. To win this, make sure you shoot your rifle at that range first. Make a dot in the center and a ring around the dot for your carefully measured hold over point. If your buddy has prepared, he will know where to hold for 200, but you will have a .25 inch advantage due to the range difference. Make sure no range finders are used, and if one is, tell him you didn't know the range was more than 200 so you were shooting with the same knowledge that he was.

You can think your way out of this one, you just have to be crafty. This will get a win for you assuming you don't get caught, both shooters have the same skill level and you cheat just enough to outweigh your rifle's disadvantage. The best way to win this one is to get some practice in and be creative ;).

You could also have someone place another bet for you, that he will win, so either way it's a wash :evil:.
 
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