Am I missing something? Loading for a Garand.

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Thomasss

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I have heard from numerous people, loading 30.06 for a M-1 Garand with Magnum Large Rifle Primers are supposed to increase performance and accuracy. So far, they only go bang and don't appear to do anything more that loading any other primer.
Urban legend or ?
I generally use Rem. case, CCI Mag LR primer, 46 grains of either Varget or lately IMR 4064 and have tried a variety of bullets: 155 or 165 A-max, ELDs, SST and Nolser even Interlocks.
Outside of target shooting, I also use my Danish Garand for a back-up deer rifle.

Anyone have experience in this area?
 
Never heard that…. I mostly use CCI 34 which are supposed to have a harder cup but have used other primers successfully also.
 
Do you have access to a chronograph? That is the sure way to check for differences.

Also, try each combination at 100+ yards, the faster bullet will be higher, where the slower will be lower(This is also requires steady firing on both accounts), I’m guessing, this is all with the same weapon. Barrel length also makes a difference in velocities.

Good Luck

Dgod
 
Primer power is linked to powder type. If your using extruded powders I would not expect a significant difference. If your out shooting in the extreme cold with ball powders I would expect better ignition and better sd numbers.
 
Never heard that about magnum primers. Are CCI 34 considered magnum? People use them to prevent slamfires, not to increase accuracy as far as I know.
 
I have actually tested this across the chronograph with IMR4895 powder I feel was made for the M1 Garand. I am a little afraid of Varget and 4064 it is right there on the edge some say use it some say it is to slow. Of which I am sure you have already researched. As it pertains to the primers magnum vs non-magnum what the chronograph told me was that with IMR4895 the magnum primer was more sporadic meaning I had more of an extreme spread. Nothing drastic but a rifle load with an extreme spread of 51fps is high for me. With the standard primer I had an extreme spread of 18fps. It didn't seem to make to much difference on target but I chose the standard primer for the lower extreme spread as I need all the help I can get :)

You experience will most likely be different because you are using a different primers, different powder and not to mention a different rifle. The primers I used for my test were Federal Large Rifle and Large Rifle Magnum.
 
I have heard from numerous people, loading 30.06 for a M-1 Garand with Magnum Large Rifle Primers are supposed to increase performance and accuracy.

You need to find some different people to listen to... ;) No, they do not 'increase performance and accuracy.' What Magnum primers do is reliably ignite big charges of ball powder, and particularly in very cold or freezing conditions, and to reliably ignite big charges of slow extruded powders. Like any primer, they may or may not 'increase performance or accuracy' any more than any other primer change.

I use #34's in both my .30-06 Garand ammos, and my .308 intended for my M1a... to reduce the potential of a slamfire. I don't (currently) use ball powder in either of those, so it's a moot point... my reloading technique is sufficient to eliminate the potential of a slamfire, but I have them so I use them. I use #41's in 5.56mm loads for my AR's... because I do use ball powder there, although in my limited testing, standard primers actually give me a tiny edge in velocity and SD numbers.

Are CCI 34 considered magnum?

Yes.
 
Changing primers sometimes improves accuracy, but with a GI issue Garand, probably not noticeable. Powders acceptable for the Garand do not need a magnum primer, but the CCI #34 is more resistant to slam fires due to its construction.

The Garand's limitation on powders is due to pressure at the gas cylinder port. Too much pressure can bend the op rod which is undesirable for a number of reasons. Op rods are difficult to repair and are in short supply. (Side note, op rods have bends in them by design, you just do not want to increase the bends).

IMR4064 is about the slowest powder suitable for the Garand. IMR4895 was the main military powder for the Garand. H4895 and Accurate 2495 are similar but not interchangeable. Varget works well in my Garands and is safe to use..

My favorite powder in the Garand is H4895 with IMR4895 a close second. The powder charges are different when shooting the same bullet to the same velocity.

I've used many Winchester large rifle primers in my Garands. The risk of a slam fire can be reduced by always loading the rifle by stripping the round from the magazine as opposed to putting the round in the chamber and letting the bolt fly home on the chambered round.

Here is an article on reloading for the Garand from Handloader Magazine.

https://www.handloadermagazine.com/m1-garand-handloads
 
with IMR4895 powder I feel was made for the M1 Garand. I am a little afraid of Varget and 4064 it is right there on the edge some say use it some say it is to slow. Of which I am sure you have already researched.
It wasn't made for the garand. It was just a continued refinement of earlier powders such as IMR 1185 and 4676. There is zero issue with using varget, 4064 or even H380 (the military used it) in the garand.
 
I can't figure out how to say this clearly, so here's my muddled $.02...

The way I understand it, for utmost consistency, you want the least amount of primer pop that reliably ignites the powder column.

Picture that a weak primer would ignite at a single point, whereas a strong primer would flash through the base of the column and ignite multiple points.

Therefor what I'm not quite sure.... other than I'm pretty sure you'll find better consistency from starting ignition at the smallest point possible.
(I'm gonna go find better stated citations in archaic books)
 
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I can't figure out how to say this clearly, so here's my muddled $.02...

The way I understand it, for utmost consistency, you want the least amount of primer pop that reliably ignites the powder column.

Picture that a weak primer would ignite at a single point, whereas a strong primer would flash through the base of the column and ignite multiple points.

Therefor what I'm not quite sure.... other than I'm pretty sure you'll find better consistency from starting ignition at the smallest point possible.
(I'm gonna go find better stated citations in archaic books)
Internal case stability will help accuracy. This is why some people shoot small primer 308. The military uses mag primers for reliability of ignition in all conditions. Different priorities.
 
It wasn't made for the garand. It was just a continued refinement of earlier powders such as IMR 1185 and 4676. There is zero issue with using varget, 4064 or even H380 (the military used it) in the garand.

What is more important than the developmental history or original intent of IMR 4895, is its history in the Garand. It is the powder used in the WW2 era cartridges, up to the 50's when ball powders were developed. I don't know why the military went to ball powders when the lifetime of IMR 4895 is more than double the lifetime of double based ball powders. I do know, for all the National Match ammunition issued at Camp Perry, (for Garands), IMR 4895 was the powder.

I did buy a 200lb keg of WC852, which is a ball powder, and it was used by the military in Garands, and the stuff shoots well and the pressure curve is appropriate. You would never know based on its location on a "burn rate" rate, because it is a slow burning powder, and those are usually totally inappropriate in Garands. But it happens that the pressure curve of WC852 drops so quickly that the port pressure at the end of the barrel is appropriate for the Garand.

It is just better to stay with powders between IMR 4064 and IMR 3031 for loads in the Garand, and I recommend any of the 4895's as first choice. That is, IMR 4895, H4895, and AA2495. Accurate Arms 2520 is a ball powder that has the same pressure curve as IMR 4895 (that's what they told me) and so it will work well in the Garand, M1a, but I still prefer the stick powders. Ball powders had a reputation for eating up throats and being peaky in hot weather. And, your gas system was just filthy after using them.
 
I have heard from numerous people, loading 30.06 for a M-1 Garand with Magnum Large Rifle Primers are supposed to increase performance and accuracy. So far, they only go bang and don't appear to do anything more that loading any other primer.
Urban legend or ?
I generally use Rem. case, CCI Mag LR primer, 46 grains of either Varget or lately IMR 4064 and have tried a variety of bullets: 155 or 165 A-max, ELDs, SST and Nolser even Interlocks.
Outside of target shooting, I also use my Danish Garand for a back-up deer rifle.

Anyone have experience in this area?

I don't have a chamber pressure gauge, nor do I have one of those primer test "mules" used by ammunition makers. Those things will tell you the flame duration, flame intensity, ignition dwell, amount of mass ejected, total energy, temperature of mass ejected, and probably your blood cholesterol. I have heard that the military primers are "magnum" primers because the military wants their ammunition to go bang in cold weather. I believe that could be true. I also know Winchester rifle primers say "magnum and standard", so it is very hard to really understand the difference. There may be compositional differences between standard primers and magnum, but I don't know what those are. While the only "magnum primers" I have are Winchester, I can't really tell over a chronograph much of a difference in velocities in a 30-06.


Code:
 Colombian Mauser Match 26” 1:10 Wilson barrel.

174 FMJBT White Box 1968 NM M72, Headstamp LC67 match, box velocity 2640 fps
14 Nov 2011 T =  68 °F    

Ave Vel =2698    
Std Dev = 51    
ES = 117      
High = 2771    
Low = 2654      
N = 5    

174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM CCI #34 OAL 3.30  
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F     

Ave Vel = 2645    
Std Dev = 12    
ES = 42      
High = 2671    
Low = 2629      
N = 10    

Very good group    


174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM Tula 7.62 lot 1-10 primers OAL 3.30
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F    

Ave Vel = 2665    
Std Dev = 9    
ES = 28      
High = 2677    
Low = 2649      
N = 10    

Excellent Group  


174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM Wolf NCLR lot 18-09 OAL 3.30
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F    

Ave Vel = 2656    
Std Dev = 15    
ES = 36      
High = 2677    
Low = 2641      
N = 9    



174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM Fed 210S OAL 3.30  
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F    

      
Ave Vel = 2656    
Std Dev = 13    
ES = 34      
High = 2674    
Low = 2640      
N = 10    
      

174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM WLR (Nickle)  OAL 3.30
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F    

Ave Vel = 2665    
Std Dev = 18    
ES = 60      
High = 2696    
Low = 2636      
N = 10    

Excellent group    

174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM CCI200  OAL 3.30  
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F    

Ave Vel = 2680    
Std Dev = 14    
ES = 56      
High = 2712    
Low = 2656      
N = 10    

V. Good group



4V6D74N.jpg


Code:
M1 Garand  BMR Receiver Douglas Barrel 1:10 twist  

150 gr FMJBT 1966 Ball      
14 Nov 2011 T= 74 ° F    

Ave Vel = 2545      
Std Dev = 20      
ES = 68      
Low = 2513     
High = 2581      
N=  8      

174 FMJBT White Box 1968 NM M72, Headstamp LC67 match, box velocity 2640 fps
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F    

Ave Vel = 2592    
Std Dev = 28      
ES = 103      
High = 2647      
Low = 2544      
N = 10      

174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM CCI #34 OAL 3.30  
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F    

Ave Vel = 2632    
Std Dev = 20      
ES = 60      
High = 2671      
Low = 2611       
N = 10      

174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM Tula 7.62 lot 1-10 primers OAL 3.30
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F    

Ave Vel = 2582    
Std Dev = 15      
ES = 49      
High = 2602      
Low = 2553      
N = 10      

 excellent group    


174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM Wolf NCLR lot 18-09 OAL 3.30  
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F    

Ave Vel = 2607    
Std Dev = 17      
ES = 57       
High = 2642      
Low = 2585      
N = 10      

174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM WLR (Nickle)  OAL 3.30  
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F    

Ave Vel = 2650    
Std Dev = 19      
ES= 68      
High = 2688      
Low = 2620      
N = 10      

Very good group    

174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM CCI200  OAL 3.30  
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F    

Ave Vel = 2599    
Std Dev = 22      
ES = 75      
High = 2637      
Low = 2562      
N = 10      

Very good group



R8S2eGJ.jpg



AhEBbBk.jpg

As you can see, CCI#34's gave less velocity for the same everything else than some standard velocity primers. So, what's the difference in energy output, heck if I know.

The primary reason to use the #34's is for primer insensitivity. As others have stated, they use them to reduce the risk of a slamfire. The consequences of a slamfire can be nothing more than a bullet going harmlessly down range, but that is a best case scenario. An accidental discharge is totally un nerving even when nothing happens. The worst case scenarios are when someone is hurt, or an out of battery slamfire happens. These sort of events were rare enough that for decades, prior to the internet, the only allowed causes of slamfires were shooter negligence. (It was a combined NRA/Army coverup of slamfires in Garands/M14's) You could not convince slamfire deniers that primer sensitivity had anything to do with slamfires. But, as rare as out of battery and in battery slamfires are, internet reports were being posted in enough frequency, that the deniers now are less vocal, as it is apparent, they are irrational fools.

There are still plenty of out of battery reports with mil spec primers, and it is because primers vary so much in sensitivity. The average mil spec primer is less sensitive than the average standard primer, but, at the extreme end, at the "none fire" test limits, there is not that much difference. Primers are tested to an "all fire" impact energy level, and a "None fire" impact energy level. But, given that primer composition varies in homogeneity and purity, there are always going to be primers that are overly sensitive. And there is nothing you can do about this.

Maybe this is a character test for some. The angry irrational slamfire deniers, perhaps they are in denial because they want total control and total predictability. Of course, they fail, they cannot determine the future, or control all outcomes, but they won't acknowledge or accept that. And they absolutely hate anyone popping their delusions.

As for using a magnum primer in the Garand, as long as you adjust the powder charge level such that the function of the rifle is 100%, and velocities are within known limits, I don't see a problem. Except for the heightened risk of an in battery or out of battery slamfire. Ammunition pressures in the Garand was mild compared to commercial loads, and there is nothing to be gained by trying to imitate commercial velocities. More does not give more. More creates more malfunctions and beats up the rifle.

If you look at what the pressures of military ammunition were with powder advances, pressures in ball ammunition were in the lower 40 K psia. I suggest if you want higher pressures and higher velocities, go shoot the stuff in a bolt gun. I have seen on the firing line enough bolt over rides, clips jumping, and inaccuracy with commercial ammunition, that I don't want that in my Garands.
 
Most descriptions of A2495 will say it was designed around the 308. Reading all the above, would it be more accurate to say it was designed around loads intended for 7.62 NATO used in auto loaders vs. generic 308 Win and bolt guns? That better stuff could be used in the latter?

But as long as I'm here, I do have a question. What were the specs of the original ammo issued to a WWII GI for his Garand? Bullet type and weight, powder and velocity? Internet is long on things like "Ball" and "M2" but short on describing what that means.
 
If you look at what the pressures of military ammunition were with powder advances, pressures in ball ammunition were in the lower 40 K psia. I suggest if you want higher pressures and higher velocities, go shoot the stuff in a bolt gun. I have seen on the firing line enough bolt over rides, clips jumping, and inaccuracy with commercial ammunition, that I don't want that in my Garands.
Correction...

Pressures are from a low of ~49k PSI to a high of ~61.7k PSI (this also includes commercial hunting ammo)

LC67 MATCH being 58.1k PSI

WC852 is basically H380
 
Most descriptions of A2495 will say it was designed around the 308. Reading all the above, would it be more accurate to say it was designed around loads intended for 7.62 NATO used in auto loaders vs. generic 308 Win and bolt guns? That better stuff could be used in the latter?

But as long as I'm here, I do have a question. What were the specs of the original ammo issued to a WWII GI for his Garand? Bullet type and weight, powder and velocity? Internet is long on things like "Ball" and "M2" but short on describing what that means.
For all intents and purposes 308/762 is the same thing. If you are in a gas gun...use gas gun powders... IMR 3031 to Varget/H380 on the chart.

Original WW2 ammo specs are basically this:
M1 ball 174grn FMJ @2700fps (muzzle) IMR 17, 1185 and 1186
M2 ball 151grn FMJ @2805fps IMR 1185, 4676 and around 1943 or so 4895 came into use and post WW2 was WC852, CMR 100
M2 AP 165grn FMJ AP @2775fps Same as M2 Ball

Powder weight can vary from lot to lot and what powder was used from as low as ~44.0 all the way up to 60.0grn
 
Most descriptions of A2495 will say it was designed around the 308. Reading all the above, would it be more accurate to say it was designed around loads intended for 7.62 NATO used in auto loaders vs. generic 308 Win and bolt guns? That better stuff could be used in the latter?

But as long as I'm here, I do have a question. What were the specs of the original ammo issued to a WWII GI for his Garand? Bullet type and weight, powder and velocity? Internet is long on things like "Ball" and "M2" but short on describing what that means.


When I talked to Accurate Arms, they told me AA2495 was a pressure curve duplicate of IMR 4895. And I can't tell much of a difference over a chronograph between the two.

As to the original specs. Understand there are those who want to prove the Garand is not weak, so they are going to promote magnum level reloading in the things. (and guess what, that person got their post in, before I got mine) Something else, what is in the TM's and specs is not reloading data. And what they were doing, at the powder makers, is different than what reloaders do.

First of all, for match ammunition, this was my standard in a Garand.

68xJXfZ.jpg

If I kept my 168's and 175's around that velocity, the rifle shot well and I did not have malfunctions.

As for the 150's, all the US military ammunition I have fired, from the Garand days, was surprisingly mild. It is very possible that the ammunition was deliberately kept on the low end, because no one wanted malfunctions in combat.

This is very interesting, I got this with my lot of WC852

JY4grpU.jpg

The Quality Assurance specialist has cartridges calibrated to a Frankford Arsenal pressure barrel. He has the FA pressures and velocities, and he "corrects" the pressures and velocities in the vendor pressure barrel to the Frankford Arsenal numbers. He is getting pressures of 40 K, 41 K psia, velocities are actually below 2750 fps. And temperatures only approach 50 K when the powder is cooked to 125 F.

The original pressures and velocities were based on WW1 ammunition specifications and the pressures were a not to exceed. As powder technology advanced, the spec velocities could be met without powder pressures ever exceeding maximum pressures. I am going to claim, as time went on, both the Army Ammunition Arsenals and the Army rifle manufacturer's more or less adjusted their products in a symbiotic relationship. No one wanted malfunctions, and the extra work that would result from scandals.

I keep my 150 grain bullet at, or below 2700 fps for my Garands, M1903's, and M1917's.

However, civilian hot dogs want magnum level performances, and you will read all the time guys who are trying to make these things into magnums. Which then is why the CMP puts out these sort of warnings.

AB1sdAA.jpg

if I were to buy factory ammunition for my Garand, I would look for something like this:

V0uiHQb.jpg

made for a Garand gas system.

I would run away from any box like this

cNchTR7.jpg

If you want to be a hot dog, then just do it. I am not your advocate. You want to prove something about the strength of the Garand, have fun with your loads. I am not going to duplicate them, and I will ignore your advice.
 

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To clarify, if these (the 4895's and 2495) are gas gun powders, what are the best 308 bolt gun stick powders? Varget and 4064?
 
When I talked to Accurate Arms, they told me AA2495 was a pressure curve duplicate of IMR 4895. And I can't tell much of a difference over a chronograph between the two.

As to the original specs. Understand there are those who want to prove the Garand is not weak, so they are going to promote magnum level reloading in the things. (and guess what, that person got their post in, before I got mine) Something else, what is in the TM's and specs is not reloading data. And what they were doing, at the powder makers, is different than what reloaders do.

First of all, for match ammunition, this was my standard in a Garand.

View attachment 1047914

If I kept my 168's and 175's around that velocity, the rifle shot well and I did not have malfunctions.

As for the 150's, all the US military ammunition I have fired, from the Garand days, was surprisingly mild. It is very possible that the ammunition was deliberately kept on the low end, because no one wanted malfunctions in combat.

This is very interesting, I got this with my lot of WC852

View attachment 1047915

The Quality Assurance specialist has cartridges calibrated to a Frankford Arsenal pressure barrel. He has the FA pressures and velocities, and he "corrects" the pressures and velocities in the vendor pressure barrel to the Frankford Arsenal numbers. He is getting pressures of 40 K, 41 K psia, velocities are actually below 2750 fps. And temperatures only approach 50 K when the powder is cooked to 125 F.

The original pressures and velocities were based on WW1 ammunition specifications and the pressures were a not to exceed. As powder technology advanced, the spec velocities could be met without powder pressures ever exceeding maximum pressures. I am going to claim, as time went on, both the Army Ammunition Arsenals and the Army rifle manufacturer's more or less adjusted their products in a symbiotic relationship. No one wanted malfunctions, and the extra work that would result from scandals.

I keep my 150 grain bullet at, or below 2700 fps for my Garands, M1903's, and M1917's.

However, civilian hot dogs want magnum level performances, and you will read all the time guys who are trying to make these things into magnums. Which then is why the CMP puts out these sort of warnings.

View attachment 1047916

if I were to buy factory ammunition for my Garand, I would look for something like this:

View attachment 1047917

made for a Garand gas system.

I would run away from any box like this

View attachment 1047918

If you want to be a hot dog, then just do it. I am not your advocate. You want to prove something about the strength of the Garand, have fun with your loads. I am not going to duplicate them, and I will ignore your advice.
The problem is your chart has the 40-41k psi in CUP. In an actual SAAMI test barrel setup the numbers are what I posted. Many people like you seem to confuse CUP vs PSI readings.

As to the rest of your post it's not really relevant except to be misleading. Especially the CMP "Warning"..*chuckle*

Superformance loads have chamber pressure around 56-57k PSI and the port pressure is only a few percent more than the highest M2 Ball port pressure.
 
To clarify, if these (the 4895's and 2495) are gas gun powders, what are the best 308 bolt gun stick powders? Varget and 4064?
Varget and 4064 are great gas gun powders.

The simple answer is it depends.... your rifle will tell you what it likes.

I use 48.0 Varget in my garands with my 168s and 175s and I love it. So do my bolt guns.

Its pretty much a clone of the M72 Match load.
 
The problem is your chart has the 40-41k psi in CUP. In an actual SAAMI test barrel setup the numbers are what I posted. Many people like you seem to confuse CUP vs PSI readings.

As to the rest of your post it's not really relevant except to be misleading. Especially the CMP "Warning"..*chuckle*

Superformance loads have chamber pressure around 56-57k PSI and the port pressure is only a few percent more than the highest M2 Ball port pressure.

I think you are playing three card monte with SAAMI Psia and CUP. The Garand, and M14 were designed under the assumption that CUP was psia. Only until later was instrumentation improved enough that it was found that CUP did not measure the peak peak.

You have stated that you want to prove that the Garand is not weak and that is just wonderful. How many rounds of commercial ammunition have you shot in one of the things? How many NRA highpower matches have you competed in, with your commercial ammunition and your Garand? Shooters usually learn to cut their loads after their first alibi, how many alibi's have you had? What exactly is your experience?.

I don't see a purpose in trying to determine the endurance limits of a Garand, nor in pushing the rifle to those limits. I have seen enough malfunctions with commercial level ammunition to not recommend that level of loading, and I have seen with the M1a, enough cracked receivers to know, you can break these things.

That is one of the CMP warnings that you seemed to have missed. Few Garands are new. Many have been through multiple rebuilds, even though the entire rifle only had to survive a 6000 round endurance test. After 6000 rounds, the rifle was expected to go back to depot and it was acceptable if any, or all parts were scrapped. I talked to one Marine Armorer who worked on a Garand rebuild line, and they scrapped a lot of cracked receivers. Just how many rebuilds have these Garands been though?. A new receiver may handle hot loads for a while, but old receivers will crack. And your advice is to push Garands to their design limits to prove they are not weak?

This guy was shooting Greek surplus, some of that Greek surplus that due to age, was over pressure. It cracked the receiver heel.

s7M56fl.jpg

3mjwJkm.jpg

and this is what you want for others?
 
I think you are playing three card monte with SAAMI Psia and CUP. The Garand, and M14 were designed under the assumption that CUP was psia. Only until later was instrumentation improved enough that it was found that CUP did not measure the peak peak.

You have stated that you want to prove that the Garand is not weak and that is just wonderful. How many rounds of commercial ammunition have you shot in one of the things? How many NRA highpower matches have you competed in, with your commercial ammunition and your Garand? Shooters usually learn to cut their loads after their first alibi, how many alibi's have you had? What exactly is your experience?.

I don't see a purpose in trying to determine the endurance limits of a Garand, nor in pushing the rifle to those limits. I have seen enough malfunctions with commercial level ammunition to not recommend that level of loading, and I have seen with the M1a, enough cracked receivers to know, you can break these things.

That is one of the CMP warnings that you seemed to have missed. Few Garands are new. Many have been through multiple rebuilds, even though the entire rifle only had to survive a 6000 round endurance test. After 6000 rounds, the rifle was expected to go back to depot and it was acceptable if any, or all parts were scrapped. I talked to one Marine Armorer who worked on a Garand rebuild line, and they scrapped a lot of cracked receivers. Just how many rebuilds have these Garands been though?. A new receiver may handle hot loads for a while, but old receivers will crack. And your advice is to push Garands to their design limits to prove they are not weak?

This guy was shooting Greek surplus, some of that Greek surplus that due to age, was over pressure. It cracked the receiver heel.

View attachment 1047960

View attachment 1047961

and this is what you want for others?
You seem confused...

I merely stated your comment about M2 ball being low 41k psi was incorrect...it's 41k "CUP".

I posted actual pressure numbers from milsurp ammo that showed pressures were from 49-61k in "PSI".

As we know... 50k CUP is basically 60180 "PSI" (new SAAMI spec)

My posting isn't to force shooter's to run their garands at max pressure...that's on them.

I'm telling them that their milsurp ammo (some of it) is at max SAAMI chamber pressure.... some isn't. So if you're shooting milsurp it can vary. Commercial ammo falls into the same pressure range as milsurp...so no worries there.


RE: cracked heels... Notice the military was having guns fail with USGI ammo. That tells us a few things.

1. We know certain batches of garands did have brittle heels.
2. Oprod spring length is important
3. Shooting "M2 ball only" isn't going to save your receiver if 1 and 2 are still a problem.


HXP...you have speculated it was overpressure...but provided no details. Current testing over several years doesn't show any issues.

More likely...it was a weak oprod spring and/or brittle heels.


What I want...is shooters to educated enough to know the actual data and THEN make their own decisions... Not automatically shoot/handload weak ammo just because you "say so"..


Understand?
 
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