America Is Dead...

[Frohickey]

sumpinz

About the 16th Amendment, there is a group that had done research about the ratification of the 16th Amendment, and according to the rules for ratification, the Amendment cannot be amended/changed prior to ratification by the state/s, otherwise, you could potentially have multiple variants of the same Amendment being ratified.

WTP
Seems that this group has been trying for years to have their grievances heard and their evidence presented, but have not been allowed to do so in a court of law. Strange.

I remember that this group was going to have a hearing sometime in Sept 2001. I know that this sounds like a conspiracy theory, but they were supposed to have a hearing in Sept 25-26, 2001. It was rescheduled after the Sept 11 attack, but the hearing never happened when the sponsoring Congressman decided to pull support, because of all things, the group were asking people to *NOT* file tax returns until April 15th (or whenever the tax returns were due).

I'd like to see their evidence.

 

[NIGHTWATCH]

...is it correct that people who do not bear the cost of government be able to steer the programs that government engages in?

Good point Frohicky.

 

[GeneC]

Cropcirclewalker said: "If you are a LEO, teacher, snowplow driver, public official, fireman, if you work for the FBI, the CIA, DOA, EPA, NSA, FDA, CCC, (Gawd, how many are there?), DOT, NEA, FOP, DOJ, FHA, FDIC, (Help me out, here), USA, USN, USMC, USAF, FSLIC, PBS, (Pant, Pant, Pant), NPR, BATFE, NCIS, USCG and there must be more. If you are retired military, teacher, fireman, politician, leo and/or others, If you are on socialist security, ssi, ada, medicare, medicaid and/or other welfare programs, or if you are in prison or otherwise collecting from some sort of govt. sponsored giveaway, then you are a Tax eater."



CCW, NONE of those people PAY taxes? I'm really appalled by these Micheal Moore tactics. So, do you think all the military, LEO and Govt agencies should be handed over to private, for profit companies? And the PBS stations in my area relies on private and public donations. Medicare? Anyone not willing to help care for their grandparents and great-grandparents does not deserve to live.

 

[Foreign Devil]

Sheesh. America's not "dead". The government has changed from what it was in 1789 because society has changed a little in 200 years. Government functions should adapt to deal with new conditions. Seems like that's a little too much for some people to handle.

Lots of civil liberties were in horrendous shape around the early 20th century, and all kinds of laws that make the Patriot act look tame have been overturned in the courts. Yet all some people can do is moan about how crappy our lives are because you can't by an M2 machine gun over the counter at home depot, and we're all "slaves" because we pay income taxes. And we all know paper money is unconstitutional too, so I guess we should all go back to using only coined money, at least until the economy collapses as we've been told it'll do any day now ...

 

[Frohickey]

Is it too much to ask to have a stable currency that is based on a precious commodity that is for the most part, a fixed scarce commodity?

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Gosh, Mr. GeneC, I don't know

whether to be flattered or insulted. Moore is a dork, but they give him academy rewards.

So, anyway, thanks to you I have come up with a resounding idea. Make a new law.......

If you work for the govt. (are a tax eater) then you take a 40% pay cut and you don't have to pay taxes. Good idea, huh?

No, wait, maybe that wouldn't work. Lots of people cheat on their taxes. How could a tax eater lie, cheat and steal their tax money back from the govt. if the govt. never gave it to them in the first place.

It would also make a lot of tax paying citizens upset. I know many who are angry about the health care and retirement bennies the govt. hands out.

Nope, it probably wouldn't work.

The other thing will NEVER work is the VAT or national sales tax. The govt. will never give up it's power to delve into your business. It wouldn't be no fun to have a socialist security number if all it would do is get you your pension.

Finally, as an amendment to my previous post, I thunk up a few more alphabet agencies. I forgot the IRS, DOD, FCC, FAA, OSHA, NHTSA, BLM, DOE, NASA, NOAH, CDC, USCG, NPS, DOI, DOC, and don't forget one of the biggies, DHS, and even the TSA. I'm sure there are more. I just can't think of them at the time.

You'll note that I didn't mention the Federal Reserve. That's a private organization.

 

[Glock Glockler]

CCW, NONE of those people PAY taxes?

It matters not the slightest whether or not they pay taxes, the fact that their job is administered by the govt means that there is far more waste then would be in a private company. Govt buearucrats get rewarded for blowing their budgets while people in private companies get rewarded improving efficiency and minimizing waste.

Private industry is more efficient.

So, do you think all the military, LEO and Govt agencies should be handed over to private, for profit companies?

Maybe not all, but as many as possible out of those that are not cut completely.

And the PBS stations in my area relies on private and public donations.

Great, if you like that station go ahead and support it, or it can support itself through advertising like other stations, but those of us who don't use that service shouldn't be made to pay for it.

Medicare? Anyone not willing to help care for their grandparents and great-grandparents does not deserve to live

Hmmmmm, very comforting thought considering your previous statement of my rights taking a backseat to the greater good. I suppose I could just help out my family and friends on my own and I don't need Washington taking a cut out to do so, right?

What a great concept! People taking care of themselves. I agree with your idea, Gene, let's have that.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Mr. Glocker, my meaning has been

circuitiously misunderstood. Yes, they pay taxes. Not!

It is a shell game. If they want the govt worker get 10 bucks then they pay him 14 bucks. Get it? It's a clever ploy.

They give him 14 bucks, He gives back 4 bucks. Only difference is that in the real world, where we have to show a profit, I earn 10 bucks and I give back 4 bucks to the tax eaters.

If there is anybody out there that thinks that tax eaters pay taxes..........well, never mind, it's like trying to teach a pig to sing.

 

[Gordon Fink]

Yet public employees (save for the cronies of elected officials) are usually paid less than they would be for equivalent jobs in the private sector. The fact of the matter is that government can do some things better than the private sector. Where we agree is that the government is trying to do too many things and often granting itself monopoly power in the process.

So where do we begin to cut? This question has certainly come up before, and our Republican members invariably provide a laundry list of departments and services that actually account for only a small fraction of the federal budget. Sure, we can pare these back a little bit and even eliminate some of them, but the only two really viable targets for significant cuts are Social Security and “defense†spending.

~G. Fink

 

[Frohickey]

Well, there is the pragmatist viewpoint that cuts should only be attempted to be made on those large programs that would affect the budget the most.

But there is the purist viewpoint that cuts should be attempted, or made on all programs, EVEN THE SMALLEST ONES, that are definitely wasteful, frivolous, and most definitely UNCONSTITUTIONAL. If you are going to start cutting out programs, shouldn't you start cutting on the small ones, since the resistance to those cuts would be the least. Start the small cuts, then after you have cut those, go on and on to the bigger ones. Criteria for programs that are targeted for elimination being those that are UNCONSTITUTIONAL, which is most of them.

 

[Waitone]

There isn't a private business in this country that isn't capable of cutting its operating budget by 10% at the drop of a hat. I've been in companies where the demand for a 10% cut for met then promptly followed by a directive for another 10% cut.

A $2.0 trillion budget reduced by 10% would free up $200 billion for the private sector to use. Talk about stoking the economy. A 10% budget cut will hurt only those who hand out the checks. We don't need to fret over specific programs.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Exactly right, waitone. However, when "budget cuts" are imposed on government entities, it is up to the "administrators" of each entity to decide WHAT gets cut. Invariably, it is the lowest paid positions who typically provide the most necessary services while the fatcat bureaucrats keep their salaries and perqs. The overhead continues unabated, but direct services (the ones the taxpayers are funding and expect to benefit from) are reduced.

 

[GeneC]

Wait, I understand this annual budget game that Govt agencies play( they all get an annual budget, if you use it up and can show you need more, your budget gets increased, if you don't use it, it gets lessened, so everyone attempts the former). I was in Marine aviation and we had a budget to buy $1mil of fighter jet parts /week, but the higher ups pushed for a 1% increase/wk. However, it's not the particular agency's fault and certainly not the workers fault, but the policy itself, it's just a really lame way to run anything. So, what we need is an ammendment to stop that policy and get the Govt on the LEAN program. How many tax payers'd pay for a team to go into every Govt agency and go all thru it, top to bottom and make it as efficient as possible and figure what it's budget needs to be to function in that LEAN mode and then lock it in there?

 

[Waitone]

Appeal to greed. Start at the top. Measure the efficiency of an organization by looking at dollars distributed as a percentage of the total budget. The balance is a measure of the bureaucratic overhead.

Pass through the edict to cut costs to those at the top and tell them, "Hey, your distribution efficiency is say 30% which means only 30% of your budget actually gets to those for whom you work. You are to receive a bonus if you can cut your total department budget by 10% but keep your disbribution dollars the same or increased."

End result of the example is 10% budget cut for a department comes from 70% of the department expenditures. The effective budget cut is not 10% bur more like 13 %.

Doey Eyed Optimism? I think not. That's how its done in the real world.

 

[Glock Glockler]

Gene,

What you're asking for is an honest govt for the govt, and that's just not going to happen. There will be considerable debate as to what exactly is "more efficient" and whether or not public services are going to gbe hampered by cutting X and Y. Also, do you really think a bureaucrat will ever make a suggesting that his own budget be cut or his dept be eliminated?

Bureaucrats want to preserve their jbs and politicians want to reward their cronnies by giving them cushy bureaucrat jobs, and this has not changed since the Greeks coined the term "politics" (poly = many, tics = bloodsucking parasites).

There are some functions that I believe are better handled by the govt, such as national defense and courts, but there are many other functions that can be handled far better by the free market. Many towns have been able to reduce their overhead SIGNIFICANTLY by outsourcing functions to private companies. City hall doesnt need directly employ and administer a cleaning dept when they can just hire a company to come in and clean up. The town doesnt need to own trucks and equipment to haul garbage and pave roads as they can be contracted out as well.

 

[Checkman]

YAWWWWN!

 

[GeneC]

GG, here in Florida, the Jeb Bush admin is already looking into many ways of 'privatizing' alot of Govt agencies, for that very reason. Privately owned companies are highly motivated to pare down to efficiency and more than a few politicians see the writing on the wall. This concept is no longer a political strategy, but a matter of necessity, in these times, just to survive and even the Govt feels the crunch. The winds of change are upon us folks. In case you don't realize it, but there's been several historic milestones in the recent past and I think we're right in one of those times in history of significance. Funny, some people, all it takes is an apple to fall on them to spark a whole revolution of thought, while others, the whole world could crumble around them and they'll still not notice a thing.


Checkman, nice input. Please respond again when you have another epiphany.

 

[TEX]

She ain't dead yet, but she is very, very sick. The infection took hold at the beginning of the Civil War (actually the War of Northen Aggression). When states rights were crippled it took control of the government further away from the people whom it affected. Sure some good things have been done atthe federal level, but they have way overstepped on many others, especially personal iberties. And I know it takes taxes to run the country, but it should not be an income tax. Our private financial affiars should not be any of the government's business on a routine basis, which is what the income tax laws allow. A slaes type tax would be better, but only if every price sign and receipt had how much of the price was tax (broken down)

Many of the problems stated here are so true as are others

* Having to pay a tax to retain ownership of your homestead
* A congress that spends money like a drunken sailor
* Trying to buy other countries with tax payer money
* Not allowing me to have a large portion of the money spent on public school so that I can choose a private school if I so desire. Nothing wrong with having state set scholastic standards at that private school.
* The Supreme Court becoming last say on things that IMHO it has no business tapering with and then ignoring critical issues because it doesn't want to mess with them.
* Restrictions on the 2nd. Only firearms laws we need are ones that put you in jail for a good long time for criminal use of one or gross negligence that results in an injury.
* Goverment enforced reverse discrimination - worse that the old fashion kind.

Well, I will get off the soap box for now.

TEX

 

[Glock Glockler]

In case you don't realize it, but there's been several historic milestones in the recent past and I think we're right in one of those times in history of significance. Funny, some people, all it takes is an apple to fall on them to spark a whole revolution of thought, while others, the whole world could crumble around them and they'll still not notice a thing.

Please elaborate. I happen to be one of those slow-witted ones that doesnt notice things, except for the out of control spending and govt expansion by the Bush administration.