America's True Civilian Marksmanship Program: Project Appleseed

[Gun-Reck]

Sounds like Appleseed wants to be publicly inclusive of all kinds of firearms so more shooters would be inclined to sign up, pay, drive, stay in a hotel, and attend the event.

If they flatly said "only Ruger 10/22s set up with Tech Sights and GI sling", well that would probably decrease whatever attendance they were hoping for.

There are two reasons I've never attended an Appleseed.

#1 - The events are always hosted 200 miles (or more) from my home
#2 - I'm not a 10/22 guy, even though I owned one for couple years some 30 years ago

I love the idea of attending an Appleseed event. It just hasn't lined up with my situation personally.

The Ruger rotary .22LR magazines are really handy.

And the RAR uses them as well, if a bolt action is more your thing.

Tech-Sights also makes an Aperture sight for them.

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Would expect that rifle choice, for me, would be determined by the range of the course.

25 yd. would be a .22LR.
200+ yd. would be the M1 rifle.

Just common sense.

And don't think they are teaching anything at Appleseed that is not in the previously attached shooting manual and vids.

 

[35 Whelen]

Basic Marksmanship - is.

They are not teaching combat firing, or the use of advanced optics.

And if one fails at basic marksmanship, all the new technology in the world will not save them in the field.

That is why so many shooters today are so reliant on aids like benches and bipods to simply shoot adequately.

They lack basic marksmanship skills.

Exactly.
I've been a gun and shooting fanatic since I was 5 years and my father shepherded me along the best he knew how. So as a teenager and a young man shooting tiny groups with bolt rifles from concrete benches, I fancied myself a bad*** with anything that had a stock and a trigger. Then several years ago I was invited to participate in High Power competition. Talk about HUMBLING. Many of the men with whom I competed were easily keeping 10 offhand shots into a 6" target center at 100 yds. and shooting 1 1/2" groups prone, unsupported at the same distance, all with aperture sights. I was mentored by a Vietnam combat veteran who himself was a Master classified competitor who, along with another competitor, taught me things that profoundly changed the way I shoot. Since I chose to compete with a bolt rifle, all the principles such as sight picture, breathing, trigger control and follow-through and use of a sling have become integrated and are used without thinking in the field. (Off the top of my head I can think of two bull elk I likely would've never been able to hit were it not for the use of a latigo sling.)

So when I read statements such as this-

Very, very good program.

But with that said, some of their doctrine is totally obsolete.

The focus on just aperture iron sights only in a world of (extremely dependable) red dots and LPVO magnified optics is outdated at best. Additionally, read about how many veterans ever used the competition-style loop sling support in combat. The answer is next to or less than 0.

Technology has marched forward since the 1930s. They should adapt and understand that.

I just have to smile and shake my head...

35W

 

[chicharrones]

The Ruger rotary .22LR magazines are really handy.

And the RAR uses them as well, if a bolt action is more your thing.

Tech-Sights also makes an Aperture sight for them.

View attachment 1156163

That's a rifle I could get behind, if my vision didn't require optics these days.

 

[Gun-Reck]

That's a rifle I could get behind, if my vision didn't require optics these days.

Have aperture sights on all my non-scoped rifles - so that don't have to use glasses.

Their optical properties are similar to an infinite focal-plane 1x optic.

 

[Varminterror]

Sounds like Appleseed wants to be publicly inclusive of all kinds of firearms so more shooters would be inclined to sign up, pay, drive, stay in a hotel, and attend the event.

Being publicly inclusive and exclusive in person isn’t so great.

 

[chicharrones]

Have aperture sights on all my non-scoped rifles - so that don't have to use glasses.

Their optical properties are similar to an infinite focal-plane 1x optic.

I have 6 rifles with aperture sights. I can use them satisfactorily in bright light with high contrast targets, but not so well in dim light anymore. Sure, I can pop in a larger diameter aperture on some of my rifles for dim light. Unfortunately, larger apertures don't focus the front sight for me.

My pupil size is locked in due to my age and they locked in at a daylight diameter. My wife's pupils locked in at a dim light diameter and her night vision is fantastic compared to mine, but she really needs to wear sunglasses in the daytime.

Which means red dots are very useful to me when it comes to my non-magnified sighting needs.

 

[chicharrones]

Being publicly inclusive and exclusive in person isn’t so great.

It can feel like a salesman's bait and switch.

 

[CapnMac]

#1 - The events are always hosted 200 miles (or more) from my home

Yeah, back when the "main" Texas location was near Davilla, near Cameron in Milam County, is was a long way from everybody.
I was neck-deep in the establishment of the Brazos County location (Cawthen, TX), as it was virtually in my backyard.

As a note on a point made above:

Effective August 1st, 2021, The Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 rifle can again now be used at Project Appleseed clinics. Check details on our How to Prepare page: https://appleseedinfo.org/how-to-prepare/

They tend to lean hard on .22LR for beginners due to the volume of ammo wanted to go from Rookie to Rifleman.

RWVA plus Appleseed also used to be quick way to CMP qualification, too.

And, from personal experience, an M-36 canvas sling can be used instead of a 1906 leather one.

 

[Charlie98]

I went to an Appleseed event a few years back. Unfortunately, it was 100* in August, and I was both ill-prepared and overweight.

Same here. I wore shorts the first day, and got the back of my legs roasted, so I wore my old BDU pants the second day. It was hot, but at least I wasn't getting well done.

They are not teaching combat firing, or the use of advanced optics.

And if one fails at basic marksmanship, all the new technology in the world will not save them in the field.

Besides the history lessons, etc, that's really what they are trying to teach: Basic marksmanship. I mentioned in my previous post that I learned more about marksmanship over a weekend than I did in 8 weeks of Army basic training... and that's true. A sling in the Army is for slinging your weapon, not locking down into a firing position. Once I learned the tricks of properly setting up a sling, I find I use it more and more. I was a good shot in the Army... I qualified Expert with 38 of 40 hits, but I became a better marksman after the Appleseed.

so I took an iron sighted M4 Hbar with A2 sights

The first day I had my open sighted 10/22... it sucked. I brought my A2 H-bar the second day... and that worked so much better. Yes, I was sent to the end of the firing line.

Yes, they are teaching the old sling techniques. So, you need 1906 sling.

And, from personal experience, an M-36 canvas sling can be used instead of a 1906 leather one.

Our instructors pushed the M1 Carbine web sling... I don't know what the particular nomenclature is. It's quickly adjustable, and works well with the Uncle Mikes QD sling swivels. After the Appleseed, I bought about 4 of them... they are great.

Yeah, back when the "main" Texas location was near Davilla, near Cameron in Milam County, is was a long way from everybody.

I lucked out... they had a single event about 40 minutes from where I live... over in Leonard, TX, at a private range. I had been looking at Davilla, but then Leonard popped up, and I was in. Sadly, that range closed, then reopened as a 'cowboy' range of some sort, then closed again. I don't believe another Appleseed was ever held there.

They tend to lean hard on .22LR for beginners due to the volume of ammo wanted to go from Rookie to Rifleman.

I think it's more about successfully teaching marksmanship, without the distraction of heavy recoil for the shooter, or muzzle blast for others on the line. True... the 22LR gives those who may not have an otherwise suitable rifle a chance to learn basic marksmanship without breaking the bank... either on a firearm, or ammo. They put me down on the end, and I tried to get as far away from the shooter next to me... a young lady with a 10/22. It was obvious she was at first distracted by the blast from my AR, then flinching. She did not do well.

 

[CapnMac]

without the distraction of heavy recoil for the shooter, or muzzle blast for others on the line.

That's worth restating for any training situation.

And part of why I did not select a "weekend" to qualify with my 1903. That, and bringing different rifles can be distracting for the "ooh-ahh" factor, too.

Tek Sights and basic rifles can help teach that it's not the bells and whistles, it's the fundamentals.

 

[Charlie98]

Tek Sights and basic rifles can help teach that it's not the bells and whistles, it's the fundamentals.

+1

 

[CraigC]

I've been to two and thoroughly enjoyed them. If you think it's outdated, you're totally missing the point. It's basic marksmanship for all ages. Not combat training. Iron sights levels the playing field and IMHO, it's a very necessary skill to learn. Any proficient iron sight shooter can pick up a rifle with an optic and shoot it well but the reverse isn't necessarily true.

I also don't know how you show up with a less than ideal rifle. I knew exactly what kind of rifle was optimal and even put one together for the purpose. I also knew they pushed the GI web sling but I wanted to use the 1907.



At my 2nd shoot, it had a new stock and was doing double duty as my long range rig.

 

[Varminterror]

I also don't know how you show up with a less than ideal rifle.

In my case, as described above, I showed up with a less than ideal rifle because 1) I read the website which says “any rifle,” and 2) I contacted the instructors which also said “any rifle,” and then when I showed up, they flipped the script to “you should have a 22 with iron sights and non-tube mag.”

I guess I’m the fool for taking grown men at their word.

 

[CraigC]

In my case, as described above, I showed up with a less than ideal rifle because 1) I read the website which says “any rifle,” and 2) I contacted the instructors which also said “any rifle,” and then when I showed up, they flipped the script to “you should have a 22 with iron sights and non-tube mag.”

I guess I’m the fool for taking grown men at their word.

Nobody said you were a fool. I guess I read enough discussion on RFC and other forums to know exactly what rifles people were taking, what rifles were optimal and what rifles were less so. However, I had courses with folks who did the same legwork you did and were a little disappointed to be shooting 25yds with centerfire AR's and one guy had an AK underfolder. Live and learn.

 

[nugi]

History - is, my friend.

American history is no different.

Either one understands it, or they have been misled.

History is always a story. Wikipedia or modern Ed somehow made us forget this basic truth. Someone is always telling a story, culling events and factors irrelevant to their story and including the events and factors they find relevant.

 

[Varminterror]

Live and learn.

I’ve been attending training, instructing my own, competing, and hosting competitions with firearms for over half of my life. “Live and learn” really shouldn’t be a means of how participants figure out what gear is needed to be allowed to participate - not just what gear is optimal, but what gear is allowed. Twice out of 3 events, I wasn’t allowed to shoot for record - and the other instance, I was shuffled around and had to shoot out of order.

Granted, this was some time ago, and I do hope instructors would do a better job of communicating what they want brought, but based on their website, it doesn’t seem any different. I do not see anything on their site saying scoped rifles can’t shoot for score (bipods ARE precluded), and I don’t see any prohibition on tube-fed rifles. Maybe they’ve changed those rules, I can’t say, but that was my experience - I read the site, called the instructors, read forums, and took a scoped 10/22. No score because of the scope. Didn’t like the extremist messaging the instructors tried passing, so I didn’t go back with them. A few years later, I went back, with an iron sighted AR, which was allowed for score, but had to shoot out of order and was a hassle - sure, Live and Learn on that one. So I did, and when I went back with an iron sighted 22, I wasn’t allowed to shoot at all because of the tube mag.

The website or either instructors could have laid out “bring an iron sighted 22 with a sling. you can bring a scope or a bipod but you won’t be allowed to shoot for score. Don’t bring a tube fed rifle, we can’t allow them. And you can bring a centerfire, but it causes problems and you’ll have to shoot out of order so you’re not blasting the rest of the line of rimfires”.

I’ve been attending training, instructing courses, competing, and hosting competition for over 20yrs, there’s no reason anyone should be unwittingly showing up with disallowed rifles, after being advised by the instructors/MD’s themselves. As a directly parallel example - when I recertified for my NRA Rifle Instructor credential, I called the Training Counselor and asked what rifle he preferred - technically he was supposed to allow any rifle, but he really prefers students use iron sights, and his berm is pretty small and really meant for Rimfire, and his property has close neighbors, so I could bring a centerfire, but he’d prefer I use a Rimfire. I took a Marlin 60, instead of the AR I usually use for the live fire portion of my Rifle (BoRS) classes I had offered, and instead of my scoped 10/22, I mentioned exactly that to the TC over the phone, he said it sounded great, and I was allowed to requalify as expected when I arrived for his class…

So I “Lived” 3 Appleseeds, and “Learned” that their instructors and their website don’t actually describe what they will allow to be used at their range days.

 

[Mike J]

I’ve been attending training, instructing my own, competing, and hosting competitions with firearms for over half of my life. “Live and learn” really shouldn’t be a means of how participants figure out what gear is needed to be allowed to participate - not just what gear is optimal, but what gear is allowed. Twice out of 3 events, I wasn’t allowed to shoot for record - and the other instance, I was shuffled around and had to shoot out of order.

Granted, this was some time ago, and I do hope instructors would do a better job of communicating what they want brought, but based on their website, it doesn’t seem any different. I do not see anything on their site saying scoped rifles can’t shoot for score (bipods ARE precluded), and I don’t see any prohibition on tube-fed rifles. Maybe they’ve changed those rules, I can’t say, but that was my experience - I read the site, called the instructors, read forums, and took a scoped 10/22. No score because of the scope. Didn’t like the extremist messaging the instructors tried passing, so I didn’t go back with them. A few years later, I went back, with an iron sighted AR, which was allowed for score, but had to shoot out of order and was a hassle - sure, Live and Learn on that one. So I did, and when I went back with an iron sighted 22, I wasn’t allowed to shoot at all because of the tube mag.

The website or either instructors could have laid out “bring an iron sighted 22 with a sling. you can bring a scope or a bipod but you won’t be allowed to shoot for score. Don’t bring a tube fed rifle, we can’t allow them. And you can bring a centerfire, but it causes problems and you’ll have to shoot out of order so you’re not blasting the rest of the line of rimfires”.

I’ve been attending training, instructing courses, competing, and hosting competition for over 20yrs, there’s no reason anyone should be unwittingly showing up with disallowed rifles, after being advised by the instructors/MD’s themselves. As a directly parallel example - when I recertified for my NRA Rifle Instructor credential, I called the Training Counselor and asked what rifle he preferred - technically he was supposed to allow any rifle, but he really prefers students use iron sights, and his berm is pretty small and really meant for Rimfire, and his property has close neighbors, so I could bring a centerfire, but he’d prefer I use a Rimfire. I took a Marlin 60, instead of the AR I usually use for the live fire portion of my Rifle (BoRS) classes I had offered, and instead of my scoped 10/22, I mentioned exactly that to the TC over the phone, he said it sounded great, and I was allowed to requalify as expected when I arrived for his class…

So I “Lived” 3 Appleseeds, and “Learned” that their instructors and their website don’t actually describe what they will allow to be used at their range days.

That has to be extremely frustrating.

 

[kBob]

I have taken an Appleseed and “attended” two with my kids.

I slapped Tech Sites on a 10-22 and larger sling swivels for a GI canvas sling ( I learned NOT to use the nylon model half a century ago.)

After my experience I added an extended mag release, modified my bolt lock, and did a trigger job I leaned of on The old (when it was worthwhile) RimFire Central. Before my kids took their classes I also broke down all my BX-10 rotary mags, cleaned them, lubed, and properly rewound them.

As a former High School Social Studies Teacher I enjoyed the history bits a lot, all three times.

-kBob