Ammo age-limit rant

[wannabeagunsmith]

Hey everyone, so let me begin by apologizing for the upcoming rant-style write up. I feel like the entire gun community should hear this because it is such a common thing that I run into. So basically, here is today's story.. Where I attend technical school in Northern Idaho, there is a pretty well-known small-ish sporting good chain that has a great selection of guns and ammo, at this time in my life, most importantly a good supply of .22LR that I like to feed to my Mark III for stress relief. Well earlier this week they got a HUGE shipment of bricks of .22 and I of course jumped on the opportunity and bought one for myself. Talking on the phone to my dad in the nearby communist republic of Washington I mentioned the fact that there was .22 up in ID, so he of course wanted in on the wealth and requested a brick for his 10/22 and my little brother's Cricket. No problem. So today I walk in there and ask the middle-aged lady working the counter (where they keep the .22 for now) for a brick. She of course ID's me and gives me the usual "oh you are so young looking" run around I am used to (I am 19). No big deal. Well then she sort of starts to poke fun at me with another cashier which only annoys me because I am in a hurry and need to get to class. She then, out of nowhere states that she thinks .22LR should be restricted to over 21 buyers because it can be used in handguns..! Walmart and Cabela's down the road do it, after all, she says. She seemed to be under the impression that it is some law to determine what the round will be put through, pistol or rifle. I explained to her that through private party sales anyone over 18 can legally obtain a pistol. So why keep them from being able to buy ammo for the legally owned gun?? She fires back that this "isn't a private sale" or whatever. At this point I a really needing to get out the door and to class before I start an argument so I just took my ammo and left. What I would like to know is WHY is it that some people are so blindly ignorant of the law that they make up laws such as these? Especially someone working in a gun store. On top of that why was she advocating for further gun control? Lord knows that we need LESS of that. I mean, there are so many shops like that, that I can only think of two that will sell me .40 S&W for my Hi-Point 4095 Carbine. I just wish people would quit making up gun laws and leave that to the politicians, they already do that enough. Or am I overreacting? I look forward to your responses.

 

[allaroundhunter]

It really is a bad deal, and one that I only recently aged out of. But don't worry, when you turn 21 you will still get carded when buying ammunition, just like when you buy beer.

In my experience, gun shop employees can be some if the most ignorant people in the world (on many topics, not just gun - related ones). Arguing with them is just like arguing with any other fool; frustrating and pointless.


I work at a shooting range while I am in school, and while I agree that gun restrictions are too tight.... There are times when people really make you think that they are necessary. (please don't flame me for that statement, I am half joking)

 

[hamp sandwich]

I wondered the same thing when I was 19.. I'm 36... I still wonder. I figure it's a psychological thing that people develop that circumvents an overall understanding of law. Emotion tends to dictate a persons interpretation of law and, sometimes, reality.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

It's frustrating. It can be frustrating when people disagree with you and look to push their views, but even more frustrating when their views are also based on a lack logic and/or full of ignorance.

My philosophy anymore (on any topic from work to family to religion to economics) is a line from Blackhawk Down:

"You know what I think? Nobody cares what I think..."

I just do me, let people do them, and hope nobody affects me. It's not worth the hassle. You did well just walking away, it's just not worth it

 

[gojuice101]

I don't know your specific laws. However, in VA you have to be 21 to buy handgun ammo. The problem is with ammo that can be used in either rifle or handgun. It can technically be considered "handgun ammo" and restricted for people under 21 and that includes 22LR. My brother has run into that problem, since he is under 21 as did I when I was that age but that was 10 years ago when things weren't quite as bad. He was buying it for a rifle but they wouldn't sell it to him because it could be used in a handgun. It is left partly to the discretion of the specific store.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I quit trying to figure out why some people are idiots a long time ago and simply accept the fact that such people are idiots because it's in their nature to be idiots. And as George Carlin once said: "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."

The whole issue with "handgun ammo" is retarded anyway, since I can't think of a single handgun caliber that isn't also chambered in a rifle somewhere.

 

[roadchoad]

Power trip. Happens often. Not much else going on for her so she exercises control over you to up her "status" or whatever. Annoying at the least. Just remember, small people make big deals of small things.

 

[S&W620]

Power trip. Happens often. Not much else going on for her so she exercises control over you to up her "status" or whatever. Annoying at the least. Just remember, small people make big deals of small things.

Absolutely.

Good on the OP for closing his mouth and moving on, shows a lot of maturity to not take the bait. No matter how sound your argument, you're not going to change that persons mind as she simply feels the need pontificate.

 

[45_auto]

She then, out of nowhere states that she thinks .22LR should be restricted to over 21 buyers because it can be used in handguns..! Walmart and Cabela's down the road do it, after all, she says. She seemed to be under the impression that it is some law to determine what the round will be put through, pistol or rifle. I explained to her that through private party sales anyone over 18 can legally obtain a pistol. So why keep them from being able to buy ammo for the legally owned gun?? She fires back that this "isn't a private sale" or whatever?

.22LR should be restricted to over 21 buyers because it can be used in handguns..! Walmart and Cabela's down the road do it, after all, she says.

That's because Walmart and Cabela's don't want to risk some 19 year old lying to them about what type of gun the ammo will be used in, thereby causing the store to pay huge fines and legal fees and lose their FFL.

If you really want to be a gunsmith, you really ought to put a little effort into understanding the law. Her impression that there is some law to determine whether the round will be put through a rifle or handgun is correct. Selling ammo to be used in a handgun to someone under 21 can cost them their FFL. It is a federal law that an FFL cannot legally sell you ammo for a handgun if you are under 21. It is the FFL holder's responsibility to determine whether the ammo will be used in a rifle or handgun. Some will make the determination by asking the under 21 buyer which it is for. Some ban all ammo sales to anyone under 21 because an under 21 buyer who wants to use it in their Mark III might lie to them and tell the clerk it is for a rifle, although since this is the "High Road" I'm sure no 19 year old posting here would do that.

Look up [18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1), 27 CFR 478.99(b)]:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.99

Sales or deliveries to underaged persons.
A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector shall not sell or deliver (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than 18 years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition, is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than 21 years of age,

Might be easier just to go to the ATF FAQ if you're having trouble understanding the legalese terminology in the law:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/licensees-conduct-of-business.html#interchangeable-ammo-sales

Q: May a licensee sell interchangeable ammunition such as .22 cal. rimfire to a person less than 21 years old?

Yes, provided the buyer is 18 years of age or older, and the dealer is satisfied that it is for use in a rifle. If the ammunition is intended for use in a handgun, the 21-year-old minimum age requirement is applicable.

[18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1), 27 CFR 478.99(b)]

To make it simple for you, it was illegal for the saleslady to sell you ammo for your Mark III, and it's not a very smart move on your part to post that you did it on a public forum.

 

[GAMEOVER44]

So glad I live in Michigan.. they dont ID for ammo here.

Next theyll be making you register ammo..

 

[OilyPablo]

I just wish people would quit making up gun laws

Well there it is.

Don't even get me started on the silliness of SBR laws/rules/made up 'tater salad.

 

[Midwest]

The law 21 years old to buy handgun ammunition only applies to federally licensed dealers?

FFL is no longer a requirement to sell ammo, it was done away with in FOPA 86.

So how could ammo (age) be still regulated with a FFL?

And if a store has no FFL? There is no minimum age for handgun ammo?
.

 

[fallout mike]

Michigan doesn't have a age requirement on ammo huh? Interesting

 

[Ryanxia]

I believe it is their misguided policy. Problem is almost every caliber they sell can be used in a handgun.

A friend of mine who's father is a Class 3 FFL was trying to buy ammo at a Walmart when he was 19/20 (had a smoking deal going) and they wouldn't sell it to him. He explained it was for his rifle, even showed them the picture of him holding his rifle.
Very frustrating indeed.

I see people online advertising rifles (private sales) and they insist on 21+. Never understood it, I get that they want to be a bit cautious, but they're kind of screwing people that are old enough to vote and die for their country.

 

[bearcreek]

That's because Walmart and Cabela's don't want to risk some 19 year old lying to them about what type of gun the ammo will be used in, thereby causing the store to pay huge fines and legal fees and lose their FFL.

The law says the dealer has to "know or have reasonable cause to believe" which means, as far as I can tell, that they're not going to get in trouble if an underage person lies to them, since they have no control over that. I may be incorrect, if so, could you post an example of a dealer getting in trouble for this? Also, from what I read in the law, it's only illegal for the dealer to sell to an underage person but not illegal for the underage person to buy. Is that your impression?

 

[hso]

When you have time you should go back and talk to the owner about the very poor customer service provided. No retailer should make fun of a customer that they intend to sell a product to. Either don't sell it or treat each and every customer with the respect due someone supporting your business, your family and you.

As to the "handgun/rifle" ammo question, you're not the first person to run into the exact same question on .22lr. It makes no sense that you might run 9mm through an AR carbine and good to go while running it through a 9mm AR pistol would prohibit a 20 year old from purchase.

 

[F-111 John]

She seemed to be under the impression that it is some law to determine what the round will be put through, pistol or rifle.

And she is right. The handgun ammunition sales ban to those under 21 is a federal law that applies to FFL licensees. She is just protecting her store's FFL.

Here is the FAQ from the ATF website:

Q: May a licensee sell interchangeable ammunition such as .22 cal. rimfire to a person less than 21 years old?

Yes, provided the buyer is 18 years of age or older, and the dealer is satisfied that it is for use in a rifle. If the ammunition is intended for use in a handgun, the 21-year-old minimum age requirement is applicable.

[18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1), 27 CFR 478.99(b)]

 

[tark]

Ryanxia, try getting some (most) of those ignorant gun shop owners to even recognize a type 3 (curio and relics) FFL. They either never heard of such a thing, or they don't know how it works. The most common error is they think a gun has to be on the list to be a C&R. No, it has to be fifty years old or more. The list is a list of exceptions to that rule. Dealing with most gunshop employees is frustrating because half of them don't know the laws and the other half thinks they are smarter than you, because they work in a gunshop and you don't.

 

[Dudedog]

It just seems wrong to me that if you start working at 16 (like I did) you have to pay Federal Income tax. You can't vote until 18 (taxation without representation!) At 18 you can be drafted and die for your country. But you can't get a handgun or buy beer (in some states) until you are 21.


Sorry you got hassled trying to but ammo.
Poor customer service to say the least.

PS: When you are over 50 you will wish you were 19 again....

 

[GBExpat]

I wish you the best of luck with whatever occasioned your diatribe, wannabeagunsmith.

I do not know the details because years ago I gave up ever again reading huge, unformatted, monolithic blocks of text.

Causes me eyestrain and/or headache, so ...

MSWord indicates that there are 492 words in the OP.

 

[Ryanxia]

Ryanxia, try getting some (most) of those ignorant gun shop owners to even recognize a type 3 (curio and relics) FFL. They either never heard of such a thing, or they don't know how it works. The most common error is they think a gun has to be on the list to be a C&R. No, it has to be fifty years old or more. The list is a list of exceptions to that rule. Dealing with most gunshop employees is frustrating because half of them don't know the laws and the other half thinks they are smarter than you, because they work in a gunshop and you don't.

Class 3, not type 3. I was referring to the Class 3 SOT for NFA items.

 

[bearcreek]

I was asking a serious question in my post above regarding this issue. It's quite clear that it's illegal for a dealer to sell handgun ammo to a person under 21. What is not clear so far is if it is illegal for the person under 21 to buy it. Could someone clear that up for us? I've not been able to find anything addressing that question, which leads me to believe that it's fine.

 

[F-111 John]

What is not clear so far is if it is illegal for the person under 21 to buy it.

Reading 18 USC 922(b)(1), it only addresses what a licensee cannot sell, but there is nothing about what an 18-21 year old can buy. So I would presume that a face-to-face sale between two private parties is legal, depending on state law.

 

[bearcreek]

It is not legal for an FFL to sell to someone between 18 and 21.

I know that. I'll rephrase my question. Is it illegal for someone who is 18-20 years of age to buy handgun ammunition from a dealer? I'm 100% aware that it is illegal for the dealer to sell it to them. Thats not the question.

 

[il.bill]

Power trip. Happens often. Not much else going on for her so she exercises control over you to up her "status" or whatever. Annoying at the least. Just remember, small people make big deals of small things.

^ Well put.

To the OP -
Yes, you are overreacting. You did get to walk out with your ammunition, after all. Having said that, I agree that your are also correct. I have run into numerous situations where a seller would not proceed with a firearm related sale because he (or she) was ignorant of, of mistaken about, the law. It is very frustrating, and can be needlessly expensive, like having to pay the extra 01FFL dealer local transfer fee because an online seller will not ship a C&R eligible firearm to me on my 03FFL. When that is simply the seller's 'business decision' it is aggravating; when it is the seller's high-handed interpretation of 'the law', it is especially irksome. Ultimately, it is MY decision as to whether or not I will do business with that seller again.

As to the clerk's ill-informed or narrow minded comments, I always try to keep in mind that we do, after all, live in a 'free country'*. She is entitled to her own opinions and the free expression thereof, just as I am. This applies (as most often happens, it seems) even when the other person is 'wrong' and I know that I am clearly 'right'. The 1st Amendment in the Bill of Rights is as clear to me as the 2nd. A quote sometimes attributed to Patrick Henry, but most often to Voltaire, comes to mind: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Enjoy shooting your .22LR ammunition, and do not waste another minute on fretting about that poor, unhappy woman. She has to live with herself - you don't. I can not help but think that to be a student living in a beautiful place like Idaho with access to a decent amount of .22LR ammo, a suitable firearm, and a place nearby to shoot it is, as used to be said, "Sitting in the catbird seat". Happy shooting - and don't forget to smile!



*void where prohibited - some restrictions may apply