Ammo comparison: 7.62x25 Tok vs. .357 sig

[leadcounsel]

So both are bottlenecked and hot rounds. What does the .357 Sig have that that Tok doesn't, and why the need to develop the Sig round?

Why didn't the Tok round just get picked up by a modern company - thinking S&W makes new ammo and a handgun to accompany it...

 

[Birdmang]

,357 sig is a lot hotter/faster

 

[bigfatdave]

Why didn't the Tok round just get picked up by a modern company

I don't have a good answer for that, I would buy a modern handgun and carbine in Tok at any reasonable price.

How about Springfield Armory releases something in the XD line in Tok?
Why not a CZ in Tok?

What I really want is a 1911-like handgun built to run Tokarev or a modern equivalent by one of the lower-end companies like RIA (see the 22tcm) and an M1 Carbine like weapon to go with it, if they shared magazines I'd buy without seeing or handling one.

 

[rcmodel]

Non-Corrosive boxer primed cases you can reload?

The main reason it has not been adopted by an American manufacture is, it is too long to work in a 9mm or .45 size frame.

Firearms companies make a profit on police sales. Civilian sales is a sideline.
And many of todays cops have smaller female hands.

Nobody is going to tool up to make a bigger gun then a .45 for a smaller caliber then a 9mm if there is no police market for it.
And there wouldn't be.

The 7.62x25 was at it's best as a sub-machinegun cartridge.
Handguns were an afterthought, and they didn't prove all that great in military service.

rc

 

[mio]

dont know about the ballistics but 357 is something we all know here in the US so its probably a lot easier to market given the ballistics being close.

 

[firesky101]

The tokarev round is very long for a handgun round, and most people have problems wrapping their hands around a frame designed for double stacked long cartridges. Besides a majority of Americans (read most firearm consumers) like large bore pistol rounds. The 7.62x25 is basically a very fast .32acp, a lot of people wont carry a 9mm cartridge like the .357 sig much less a 7.62mm like the tokarev. Personally I like the tokarev but to each his own.

 

[wally]

The main problem with the 7,62x25 Tok is its too long for "standard" 10mm/.45ACP frames so they'd be starting from scratch. Like the 10mm, its a niche round which will likely fade away once the surplus ammo dries up, so it'd take a major leap of faith on the part of the manufacturer to make the investment.

Non-Corrosive boxer primed cases you can reload?

Wolf "Gold", Privi, and I believe S&B still sells them.

I shoot lots of 7.62x25 in my Romanian TTC, CZ-52, and CNC Machine AR 7.62.25 AR upper that uses modified PPsH-43 mags. I stocked up on the ammo as deep as I could store it when it was ~$110/1200 rounds or less.

 

[rcmodel]

Wolf "Gold", Privi, and I believe S&B still sells them.

Yes, I know.

But were it not for the boatloads of corrosive ammo and surplus guns sold here?
And the cheap surplus ammo now drying up and getting more expensive?

Wolf, Privi, and S&B would never have got on the new ammo bandwagon.

rc

 

[DWFan]

J&G Sales periodically markets (and always sells out) a 7.62x25mm conversion of the M1911. Loaded with factory hardball, the round is long; loaded with the Hornady XTP, its no longer than the 9x23 Winchester.
http://www.jgsales.com/7.62x25-toka...mm-or-38super.-new,-by-j-g-sales.-p-6472.html
Other than the fact that both are bottleneck cartridges, there is no comparison between the 7.62x25 and the .357 SIG.
If the .357 SIG is "hot", (the 9x23 Winchester will match it), what does that make the 9x25 Dillon? or the .38 Casull?

 

[Kachok]

7.62x25 is smaller caliber and faster, 357 Sig is larger caliber and slower, at their limits both push similar levels of energy, so clear penatration advantage to the 7.62 and an edge in soft tissue damage to the 357.

 

[NG VI]

.357 is loaded with projectiles in more useful weight ranges.

7.62x25 has very light projectiles available, generally it only shares bullets with pocket pistols whose bullets will not tolerate the speeds the 7.62x25 would push them to. Penetration suffers as a result, unless loading FMJ, in which case terminal performance is abysmal.

.357 is an available chambering of nearly every current production pistol that can be had in .40 S&W.

7.62x25 is available in a couple of orphaned Soviet and Czech pistols that have been out of production for fifty years and a couple of subguns that have been out of production even longer, and the Bizon, which we will never be able to buy no matter how cool it is.

.357 uses projectiles of a ubiquitous diameter and so can be reloaded with an extremely wide variety of bullets or purchased loaded with a wide variety of bullets of known performance characteristics and quality.

7.62x25 is loaded either with FMJ bullets or with JHPs of unknown performance. There is no very standard, known quantity defense bullet like the Gold Dot or Ranger-T or Golden Saber available for the 7.62x25, though it could potentially be loaded with incredibly unsuitable .32 ACP bullets. It shares a bore diameter with no other service caliber cartridges, only pocket pistols calibers, a couple of uncommon revolver cartridges, and some rifle cartridges. No bullets that are typically pushed to the speeds that 7.62x25 would push them, so there is no readily available pool of data to draw from.


.357 fits in short-action service pistols (9mm/.40 size)
7.62x25 doesn't even fit in long-action platforms (.45/10mm/.38 Super size)


Basically, why would any manufacturer try to tool up to produce a completely non-standard cartridge whose time has come and gone a half a century ago? Everything about it would need to be produced nearly from scratch. It would be a really interesting self-loading trail-type carbine round, but nothing like that exists.

 

[bigfatdave]

The main problem with the 7,62x25 Tok is its too long for "standard" 10mm/.45ACP frames so they'd be starting from scratch.

Your phrasing shook the magic 8-ball I use for a brain and it came up with the name "Coonan"
http://www.coonaninc.com/products.php/pistol/

.357mag:
Case length 1.29 in (33 mm)
Overall length 1.59 in (40 mm)

7.62x25 Tokarev:
Case length 25 mm (0.98 in)
Overall length 34 mm (1.3 in)

Tokarev will fit in a Coonan frame, does anyone know someone in the Coonan company they could ask about this concept?

===

Separate thought ... wouldn't the projectiles used in .30carbine be suitable for Tokarev? .30carb soft points are fairly potent. I'm not a reloader, so I don't know if it would be a no-go.

 

[leadcounsel]

For those saying that the Tok is too big for a handgun, the Yugo Tok is a single stack 9 round handgun. It's very comfortable in the hand. You could probably easily make it a 10 or 11 rounder with a slight widening.

 

[bigfatdave]

nah, make it shorter and stubbier, officer1911 size or so, maybe with a 4-4.5" barrel and call it a concealment gun.

and leave it thin

 

[R.W.Dale]

The main problem with the 7,62x25 Tok is its too long for "standard" 10mm/.45ACP frames so they'd be starting from scratch.

Your phrasing shook the magic 8-ball I use for a brain and it came up with the name "Coonan"
http://www.coonaninc.com/products.php/pistol/

.357mag:
Case length 1.29 in (33 mm)
Overall length 1.59 in (40 mm)

7.62x25 Tokarev:
Case length 25 mm (0.98 in)
Overall length 34 mm (1.3 in)

Tokarev will fit in a Coonan frame, does anyone know someone in the Coonan company they could ask about this concept?

===

Separate thought ... wouldn't the projectiles used in .30carbine be suitable for Tokarev? .30carb soft points are fairly potent. I'm not a reloader, so I don't know if it would be a no-go.

Well consider the coonan is a $1500 custom gun that you're going to make more expensive by chambering it in a vastly less powerful chambeing.

30 carbine uses .308" dial bullets starting at 110grs.
7.62x25 uses .310 to .312 depending no heavier than 100g

30 carbine is kind of an abyssmal performer from a handgun x25 is more so.

Having owned both the sig round and the tok I can say that the 357sig is better in every way and is much more compatible with the 21'st century handgunner

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[bigfatdave]

Having owned both the sig round and the tok I can say that the 357sig is better in every way and is much more compatible with the 21'st century handgunner

is that because the Tok was loaded up to antique standards with antique metallurgy?

Imagine a roughly-Tokarev sized round loaded with those JSP bullets in a necked-down 9x{something} case, make it a little shorter, because modern powders get more pressure in an equivalent volume (I think, again, not a handloader)
Make it compatible with the older Tok for plinking ammo, perhaps, but beef it up to modern pressures.

I don't know, am I too far into fantasy land here, or would it be possible for a modern manufacturer to get a new cartridge on the market like SIG and Federal did?
We have .32 NAA, which is .380 ACP down to .32 ... why not a bigger cousin to it that was pushed by a bigger manufacturer than NAA? (hey, I like NAA, but they aren't exactly high-volume and they don't have an industry-steering presence)

 

[R.W.Dale]

is that because the Tok was loaded up to antique standards with antique metallurgy?

Imagine a roughly-Tokarev sized round loaded with those JSP bullets in a necked-down 9x{something} case, make it a little shorter, because modern powders get more pressure in an equivalent volume (I think, again, not a handloader)
Make it compatible with the older Tok for plinking ammo, perhaps, but beef it up to modern pressures.

I don't know, am I too far into fantasy land here, or would it be possible for a modern manufacturer to get a new cartridge on the market like SIG and Federal did?
We have .32 NAA, which is .380 ACP down to .32 ... why not a bigger cousin to it that was pushed by a bigger manufacturer than NAA? (hey, I like NAA, but they aren't exactly high-volume and they don't have an industry-steering presence)

You just designed 357 sig.

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[bigfatdave]

You just designed 357 sig.

but I can cram more of my design's 9mm wide cases into a magazine than the 10mm wide .357sig cases

Possibly not a major improvement, but where is the cheap practice ammo for .357sig? My design lets you practice with cheapo Tok ammo.

AND my design leaves a refreshing pine scent in the air when fired!

 

[R.W.Dale]

but I can cram more of my design's 9mm wide cases into a magazine than the 10mm wide .357sig cases

Possibly not a major improvement, but where is the cheap practice ammo for .357sig? My design lets you practice with cheapo Tok ammo.

AND my design leaves a refreshing pine scent in the air when fired!

You mean the cheap o tokarev ammo that no longer exists?

30luger is 9mm necked down. Its been around longer than 9mm and 45 acp has. What was the last gun you saw chambered for it?

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[mgmorden]

Firearms companies make a profit on police sales. Civilian sales is a sideline.

WAY too big of a simplification. One of the largest firearms manufacturers in the country - Ruger - has only a miniscule portion of their sales to government/police agencies. There are plenty of other companies like Kahr, Kel-tec, etc that do no measurable amount of police sales, yet still do plenty of business. Heck as much as they are maligned, Hi Point is certainly profitable, and they do no LE sales.

Realistically though, you have to look at it from a practicality standpoint. If you're going to create a bottleneck round, what's a rather fat and very popular round out there to start with? Something that won't require new frames or mags and already has pistols out there designed to use it? .40 S&W.

Now, if you're going to neck that down, you need to go with something smaller than .40. What other caliber of bullet is already manufactured in insanely bulk quantities for another popular round? 9mm.

So, .40S&W case necked down to 9mm bullet = .357 SIG. It's just that simple.

 

[wally]

30luger is 9mm necked down.

Actually 9mm is .30 Luger "un-necked".

I'd always thought 9mm was some careful "optimization" seeing how it hits .45ACP energy levels with about half the powder and half the bullet mass, but according to "Tales of the Gun" on the History Channel the P-08 Luger originally was in .30 Luger but the German Army wasn't ready for that small of a bore for a pistol and wanted larger bullets. Removing the neck putting in the biggest bullet that'd fit basically yielded the 9mm Parabellum.

 

[NG VI]

Crazy how haphazardly the single most efficient and popular pistol cartridge the world has ever seen was developed isn't it?

 

[bigfatdave]

30luger is 9mm necked down.

technically it is the other way around, which probably saved a bunch of time in the ammo factories when they dumped that silly neck-down step.

 

[bigfatdave]

You mean the cheap o tokarev ammo that no longer exists?

prices are up, but it remains cheaper than the cheapest .357sig I've ever seen (granted, I don't do a lot of shopping for .357sig, it is a fascinating caliber I feel no need to add to my armory)

 

[leadcounsel]

So it appears the Tok is shorter than the Sig. If as much money was invested in the Tok round, then people could plink with the cheap surplus and us quality self defense offerings that are currently offered in the overpriced Sig rounds.