Ammo for AR15/M4?

[ctdonath]

(Get stick, find hornet's nest, insert stick, shake hard.)

What is the best defensive ammo for a medium-length AR15/M4? Looking at 16" and 14" (possibly 11") barrels. Given the many claims of lack of .223 stopping power, I'm wondering what ammo is best for defense.

The question comes from picking this up from elsewhere:

My friends in Country tell me that two, good hits will take down most insurgents when Marines are using the Black Hills 77gr 223 round. With the M855 (62gr "penetrator"), six hits are commonly required, particularly when they use the short-barreled M4.

So what should I feed my M4gery (old Colt Gov't Model AR15 lower with 16.1" Colt M4 upper) when prepping for social engagements?

 

[dmftoy1]

There's a good section over on AR15.com that tells you what you're options are. If $ is no object then I'd probably pick up the Hornady TAP ammo. If you're looking for less expensive ammo for storage then I'd buy XM193 from Federal. You can pick it up pretty reasonably from Natchez and a few other places.

(as far as the quote I'd take that with a grain of salt . .sounds like a mall ninja to me, but that's just my opinion. )

Have a good one,
Dave

 

[ctdonath]

I have reason to believe the quote is accurate, written by a major instructor with contact with troops in Iraq.

 

[DMK]

Try reading the AR15.com Ammo FAQ: the Ammo Oracle www.ammo-oracle.com

Depending on rate of twist, M193 spec 55gr, Black Hills 68-75gr, or Nato spec 77gr.

1/7 twist with hot 77gr would be the best: Fragmentation Chart

 

[ctdonath]

DMK,
Those links are making me go blind - and enlightenment is already beginning.
Seems there is a breakthrough in the works at that second link, finally pulling together all the real ballistic info that has been kicked around for years.

The fundamental question is whether one is seeking long range or fragmentation: optimal placement or maximum damage. Unlike practically all other ammo, 5.56 has these two distinct terminal behaviors; unfortunately, most people confuse them. Optimizing these behaviors require distinctly different rifle configurations, which also confuse most people.

As I'm considering sub-100m social ranges, it does appear hot 77gr thru 1/7" twist is ideal, giving the most fragmentation for the most range in a moderately compact package. (Over 100m, fragmentation advantage is lost, and a different configuration is required ... at which point one might as well switch to a suitable .308 - another thread altogether.)

Fascinating reading...will keep me busy for a while...

 

[Coronach]

Here is a key point that is lost in all of the ammo debates (it has, however, already been mentioned here):

99% of the ammo debate is about velocity, bullet weight and composition of ball ammo. Now, that's a perfectly valid point for arguing M4 vs M16A2 vs XM8 for the US Military. However, it is not much of a concern if you are not restricted to ball ammo.

Do I have a stock of NATO ball ammo on hand for my 16" carbine for plinking and SHTF what-if scenarios? Yep. But If I were going to be looking for defensive ammo, I would be fiddling with Hornady TAP, which works quite nicely out of short barrels as well as long.

Defensive ammo for the AR15 need not be ball ammo, which does a nice end-around on the whole 5.56 ammo debate.

Mike

 

[LaEscopeta]

Here’s a post comparing Terminal Ballistics of Federal .223 Ammo:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=146306&highlight=Terminal+Ballistics

My friends in Country tell me that two, good hits will take down most insurgents when Marines are using the Black Hills 77gr 223 round. With the M855 (62gr "penetrator"), six hits are commonly required, particularly when they use the short-barreled M4.

Well, I’ve never been in combat nor even the military, and I don’t know much about firearms. But I’ve never let lack of knowledge stop me before. So I’m zipping up the anti-flame suit and leaping into the 5.56 mm mouse round controversy without looking.

Is it possible soldiers/marines who report needing 2 to 6 hits to stop an enemy with a 5.56 mm round are missing with all but one of those rounds?

I’m speculating based on hearing the military expends hundreds of rifle round for every enemy hit, and the tendency of combat to distort one’s perceptions.

I don’t know, I’m just asking.

 

[JShirley]

I haven't tested against barriers, but based on penetration/expansion in water, Fed Am Eagle 50 grain HP should be about perfect close-range defensive ammo.

Currently $.26/round, shipped, from Ammoman.com, for 500 rounds.
John

 

[DMK]

Great points Coronach.

I would be fiddling with Hornady TAP, which works quite nicely out of short barrels as well as long.

I wonder though if Hornady TAP FPD has anything over Black Hills in the same bullet weight. It's quite pricy and it only seems to have shiny black nickle cases to show for it.

 

[Farnham]

.50 Beowulf. You know you just wanted a new upper anyway.

 

[NMshooter]

Isn't the Hornady TAP 75gr. just Hornady's 75gr. JHP match bullet, like the Black Hills load has the Sierra (or was it someone else's?) 77gr. JHP match bullet?

Coronach, I think the ammo you want to mention is either the Federal bonded JSP or some sort of Nosler Partition.

The ammo-oracle is a good source.

 

[blackhawk2000]

Anyone remember the DC sniper? IIRC 1 shot to the chest, was all it took to take down those people. What kind of ammo did they use?

 

[Coronach]

Coronach, I think the ammo you want to mention is either the Federal bonded JSP or some sort of Nosler Partition.

The ammo-oracle is a good source.

I'm not really an ammo expert, nor do I mean to parade myself as one. I'm merely noting that the vociferous debate on barrel length and SS-1XX vs SS-1YY ammo assumes that the user is limited to ball ammo only.

For private citizens, that is NOT the case.

Mike

 

[LaEscopeta]

Anyone remember the DC sniper? IIRC 1 shot to the chest, was all it took to take down those people. What kind of ammo did they use?

The DC/Beltway Snipers (2 person team) shot 13 people with one round each from a Bushmaster AR-15, from 50+/- to 120+/- yards. 10 of the 13 died. All of them fell down, and did not move from where they fell, i.e. all of them were stopped. I have not been able to find confirmed information on the ammo used, except it was 5.56 mm/.223. The trial transcripts would have ballistic experts stating the ammo details, but I have not been able to find on line.

(I also suspect the 5.56 mm haters will say the DC Sniper victims too old, too young, too out of shape, too passive, etc., and they would fall down no matter what hit them.)

 

[444]

At close range, being shot with a rifle is bad.
I have seen some horrible wounds and spotted laquered cases lying on the sidewalk.
My opinion, at close range, the type of bullet is gilding the lilly.
I have read on-line (meaning it is probably BS) that the DC snipers were using laquered cases.

Food for thought: ANY bullet out of a 5.56 rifle is infinitely more potent than ANY defensive or service handgun by the order of several magnitudes.

 

[ctdonath]

Understood. Just trying to understand and maximize the potential. If needed socially, n-1 shots is better than n.

And once I get rid of this Wolf .223 crap, I'll want to get some worthwhile ammo.

 

[ctdonath]

.50 Beowulf. You know you just wanted a new upper anyway.

Oh, STOP! Yes, I want one ... and a Colt Commando, and an AAC can, and a suppressed Mk. II, and ...

 

[Coronach]

...a paaaaaaartidge in a pearrrrrrrrrr treeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

 

[mmike87]

Here’s a post comparing Terminal Ballistics of Federal .223 Ammo:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=146306&highlight=Terminal+Ballistics

Well, I’ve never been in combat nor even the military, and I don’t know much about firearms. But I’ve never let lack of knowledge stop me before. So I’m zipping up the anti-flame suit and leaping into the 5.56 mm mouse round controversy without looking.

Is it possible soldiers/marines who report needing 2 to 6 hits to stop an enemy with a 5.56 mm round are missing with all but one of those rounds?

I’m speculating based on hearing the military expends hundreds of rifle round for every enemy hit, and the tendency of combat to distort one’s perceptions.

I don’t know, I’m just asking.

I can't testify to the accuracy of that statement ... but I do agree that all anecdotal evidence needs to be carefully scrutinized.

I'm not a scientist or a ballistics expert. But I am sitting here gazing at some green tip and for the life of me I can't see a six-shot takedown as possibly being typical. Sure, it isn't huge - but SIX? I don't know.

I too have never let my lack of knowledge stop me, either.

 

[ctdonath]

So what's the info on TAP rounds? Lots of references around for that being best, but little hard data or sage insights.

 

[Blackhawk 6]

I am not sure why you chose to omit the instructor's name but I will respect you desire to keep his name out of the discussion though I am fairly certain I know who he is. As I recall he was never particularly fond of the 5.56mm. Consequently, I assign little value to any comments he might offer regarding the terminal perfomance of the 5.56mm, especially when they contradict my own experience.

I am no ballistics expert but I have a bunch of trigger time on the AR-15/M-4/M-16A2 including two trips overseas.

My observations are as follows:

1. Getting center-punched by a rifle is bad. Getting center-punched by a rifle at close range is worse. Your point about using a few rounds as possible is well taken but I thing you will find that there is very little difference in terms of terminal performance at the extremely close-ranges one is likely to encounter in a home defense scenario.

2. The debate raging over the terminal performance of the 5.56mm is, in large part, much ado about nothing.

a. Much of the debate surrounding 5.56mm terminal performance centers on fragmentation and the velocity necessary to achieve it. However, if one looks at the failures being reported from both Iraq and Afghanistan you will find that many, if not most, are occuring inside the the ranges where fragmentation is supposed to occur. While men much smarter than I continue to advocate this fragmentation theory, common sense tells me something else is involved.

b. Another sizeable portion of reported "failures" are occurring at ranges where it would be impossible for the firer to determine whether or not he hit his target. A "failure" at 200 meters is probably a miss.

c. The Army's study of the issue determined that many "failures" were, in fact, peripheral hits. It also found that many of the people doing the complaining were not the ones doing the shooting.

3. The 75- and 77-grain bullets are very much in vogue these days. Keep in mind that the Mk 262 Mod0 & Mk 262 Mod1 were fielded to address inadequate lethality at extended ranges (300-600 meters) from the SPR and not as some uber-lethal CQB round. Both rounds perform well in both roles.

As to your situation my recommendations are as follows:

1. Stick to either a 14.5 or 16 inch barrel unless you have a specific requirement that requires a shorter barrel. What you gain in terms of increased maneuverability does not offset the decrease in velocity, in my opinion. There can be no question that a substantial portion of the 5.56mm's lethality is tied to its velocity.

2. Go with a 55-grain bullet. Ammunition is ubiquitous and inexpensive. That equals more trigger time which is what is really important. If you place a great deal of emphasis on bullet design, get the 55-grain TAP from Hornady. Going with the sexier 75- or 77-grain bullets is unnecessary unless you forsee a requirement to engage targets past 300 meters. Practice will be expensive or require re-zeroing prior to and following training sessions.

Hope this helps.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

a. Much of the debate surrounding 5.56mm terminal performance centers on fragmentation and the velocity necessary to achieve it. However, if one looks at the failures being reported from both Iraq and Afghanistan you will find that many, if not most, are occuring inside the the ranges where fragmentation is supposed to occur. While men much smarter than I continue to advocate this fragmentation theory, common sense tells me something else is involved

What ammunition were you using when these failures occurred? It is my understanding that one of the issues with M855 is that its complex construction means that different lots of ammo from the same factory can have completely different characteristics regarding fragmentation. One might yaw and fragment as low as 1,900fps and a second one might not fragment at all after hitting at muzzle velocity.

Even M193 travelling at a velocity sufficient to fragment either fails to yaw early enough or fails to fragment about 25% of the time if I remember my reading correctly.

From my understanding, this is why the match bullets in Mk262 are so popular. The same uniform jacket that makes the bullet excellent in the accuracy department also insures consistent performance on the terminal side.

 

[Blackhawk 6]

What ammunition were you using when these failures occurred?

I have not expereinced any failures. The failures I referred to were those being reported in Iraq/Afghanistan.

It is my understanding that one of the issues with M855 is that its complex construction means that different lots of ammo from the same factory can have completely different characteristics regarding fragmentation. One might yaw and fragment as low as 1,900fps and a second one might not fragment at all after hitting at muzzle velocity.

I knew that all SS-109 was not created equal, but I was unaware that there was that great a deviation in M855. If you have a reference, I would be interested.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I knew that all SS-109 was not created equal, but I was unaware that there was that great a deviation in M855. If you have a reference, I would be interested.

Here is a pdf discussing yaw on the M855. They discuss that around 70% of rounds will yaw at 12cm with about 15% yawing sooner and 15% yawing later.

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2001smallarms/parks1.pdf

Somewhere out there in the discussion of legality of M855 there is another pic of M855 showing some frag as low as 1900fps; but I can't find it just right now. It was an Army report for the Swiss as well in PDF.

 

[NMshooter]

At the risk of dragging this thread off topic I would like to comment about barrel length.

After I started using a LMT 5 position stock I found that opening to the second or third position made the carbine very handy, even with a 16" barrel with A2 flash hider. The difference in manuverability is dramatic, after replacing the A2 stock on my 20" rifle I found it about as handy as a fixed stock carbine.

So you can have a longer barrel and manuverability, if you do not mind shooting squared off with your target. And you can still lengthen the stock for shooting prone and other positions where you need the increased LOP.

We now return you to your regular scheduled ammo argument.