Is anyone else tired of the M4 and AR15?

[ROAshooter]

"Not a bit. I am simply overwhelmed by how "wonderful" the .223 is when it took between 3 and 4 shots to bring down a deer the hunter spied at 350 yards. "Superior marksmanship" was exemplified when he/she had to track the animal for 1/2 mile to find it still kicking and bloodshot. Only then was it finally dispatched with a .22 long rifle to the animal's head. (You've seen it before)."

Its not the fault of the "wonderful" 223....when its used incorrectly....

 

[Hastings]

I enjoy shooting AR's, but there is one aspect of the "platform" that I dislike. A lot of the creativity from gun makers and potential gun designers is channeled into AR variants and accessories rather than into new firearms designs.

You can't blame them. With the popularity and adaptability of the AR, focusing talent and resources on AR stuff is easy money. The same thing could be said of 1911's, or Glocks. One spark of genius followed by thousands jumping on the gravy train. Still, if John Browning had spent all of his creative energy after the creation of the 1886/1892 rifle design coming up with variants and accessories for these rifles, we wouldn't have the model 94, the 1911, the Hi Power, or a bunch of other iconic firearms.

I wonder if there are any other potential J.M. Brownings out there today wasting their creative energies on designing another 4-rail hand guard system for an AR.

 

[md7]

I'm not sure I'd label any firearm as a be all, end all. AR included.

That said, I do like the AR and think it does what it was intended to do pretty well.

As to soul and feel.... Like many, I admire beautiful wood and blued steel. Think it's awesome on a hunting rifle and/or over under shotguns etc.

I view defensive arms differently, and place more attention on function over appearance. So, I'm ok with a glock, m&p, and AR's being a bit homely. I just want them to work!!

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

They are great "range toys" but often fall short in the field.

Every gun can "fall short in the field" when not used for the purpose it is best suited for. I'm not going to hunt moose with an AR or try to shoot ducks with an M109. Just the same that I'm not going to try to change a tire with a phillips head screw driver.

PS: This is not the thread to regale us with your .223/5.56 x 45, M4/AR15 "hunting stories". Save it for another thread which are legion.

So, you want to lambast the tool but don't want to hear any retorts.

Lol.

Okay then.

FYI: One of my ARs when combined with 75gr bullets is my most prolific doe killing rifles... so, oops.

...they come up short, requiring between two and three rounds fired to drop the game.

Male bovine fecal droppings.

Plain and simple.

 

[hso]

The OP seems to have ignored the evolution of the 5.56X45 into a viable hunting round and ignores that there's more to shooting than putting meat on the table.

 

[bannockburn]

No, still not tired of the AR15, even after having one for nearly 40 years. For me it's a fun gun to take to the range and for use in the home defense role. It is capable of excellent accuracy out to 200 yards with iron sights, it's relatively inexpensive to shoot, and it's a very modular design, lending itself to numerous configurations and applications.

I have never used it for hunting and don't ever really plan to. There are several other rifles I can choose from for that purpose. I do like the traditional wood and steel with some of my guns but I also see the benefit of having ones made with aluminum alloy and synthetic stocks.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

I am simply overwhelmed by how "wonderful" the .223 is when it took between 3 and 4 shots to bring down a deer the hunter spied at 350 yards. "Superior marksmanship" was exemplified when he/she had to track the animal for 1/2 mile to find it still kicking and bloodshot. Only then was it finally dispatched with a .22 long rifle to the animal's head. (You've seen it before).

I don't blame the gun.

I don't blame the hunter.

I blame the guide that allowed that to happen.

And no, I've never seen it before because there's no way I would allow a hunter I'm responsible for do that.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

I dunno, I'd rather think that the Colt M-4s I bought for our girls will be regarded by them as every bit as 'soulful' as the M-1s they also have received from me. While they aren't quite finished growing, I know they won't ever be able to as easily handle the Garands as they will the Colt 6920s that can easily adapt to fit them like a glove. They will be every bit as practical as weapons as they will be sentimental favorites to them.

To each his or her own, but hasn't outdoor writer Jim Zumbo touched on this before a few years back going on and on about how AR pattern rifles weren't fit for his self-styled (and arrogantly imagined) "Hunting Fraternity"?

Yeh, we remember.....

 

[Captain O]

Every gun can "fall short in the field" when not used for the purpose it is best suited for. I'm not going to hunt moose with an AR or try to shoot ducks with an M109. Just the same that I'm not going to try to change a tire with a phillips head screw driver.



So, you want to lambast the tool but don't want to hear any retorts.

Lol.

Okay then.

FYI: One of my ARs when combined with 75gr bullets is my most prolific doe killing rifles... so, oops.



Male bovine fecal droppings.

Plain and simple.

And so it begins.

 

[taliv]

"don't take irresponsible shots at game" would be good advice and a good thread.

"i prefer wood and heard a story about someone who probably shot a deer in the leg, gut and butt and blamed his rifle for not instantly killing it and blowing it 15 feet through the air like you see in the movies. will anyone commiserate with me?" is appreciably less interesting.

 

[Llama Bob]

The AR is pretty clearly the best autoloading platform anyone has come up with to date. It:

• is reliable
• can be accurized to an extreme degree
• can be chambered in anything from varmint cartridges to large/dangerous game rounds
• tends to be lighter for the same caliber than other autoloaders due to use of aluminium
• can easily be scoped with anything from CQB scopes to long range optics
• has the best accessories ecosystem of any rifle
• has the option for large or small magazines as desired.

That said, the .223 round is a varmint round - nothing magically changed from the .222. It it not really suitable for medium game (or humans for that matter) and in some states is illegal for that use. If you want to shoot creatures of that size with an AR, an AR10 is probably a good idea.

 

[Sergei Mosin]

No gun, nor any other tool made by the hand of man, whether it be of wood and steel or plastic and aluminum, has a soul. Whatever character we impute to them is entirely of our own creation, not intrinsic to the object itself. Which is a long-winded way of saying, own what you like, and accept that what you like may not be what others like.

 

[surveyor]

Am I tired of it?
Not yet..

 

[Theohazard]

I was born tired of the AR15. Don't care for the word "platform" when folks are referring to a "rifle" either. But that's the popular rifle and that's the popular word.

Why do so so many people get upset about the proper use of the word "platform"? When someone uses that word, they're not referring to one specific rifle, they're referring to the overall design. Here's the first part of the definition of the word "platform" from Merriam-Webster:

plat·form\ˈplat-ˌfȯrm\
noun
Usage: often attributive
1 : plan, design

So I would use the word "rifle" if I was talking about a specific AR-15. But the word "plaform" is better used to describe the overall design. Besides, not all AR-15 variants are rifles.

 

[JShirley]

some shooters view the M4/AR15 as the "be-all, end-all" rifle

I am 100% certain that is not at all true, considering the only niche the rifle holds is as a short to medium-range combat arm.

The 5.56 x 45 cartridge is illegal to hunt deer with in a fair number of states.

Okay, so it's obvious this is your red herring thread. Because of the modular nature of the system, it's easy to put an upper that's perfect for the deer hunting most US citizens do on an AR15.

This is not the thread to regale us with your .223/5.56 x 45, M4/AR15 "hunting stories".

No, no, we got it. This is your "I don't like ARs, so I'll make a pointless thread" thread. Check.

John

 

[Theohazard]

It it not really suitable for medium game (or humans for that matter)

You're totally right. The longest-serving military rifle cartridge in US history actually isn't suited for use on humans. You might want to let the military know this. Oh, and while you're at it, call all the other countries around the world that use this round and tell them the same thing. And the countless federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies around the country that use the .223/5.56 could probably use this information also.

 

[outlawjw]

You know the really nice thing about guns , they make one for everybody all styles & powers. Even though I know its not possible I would love one of each , & each would have its own place in my heart & gun room.
Love them all & so it ends.

 

[amprecon]

I wouldn't own a AR until they became available in 6.8spc, now I have two in that caliber. If 6.8 was available in 1999 I wouldn't own any AK's. I felt the greater energy of the 7.62x39 was more useful than 5.56. But now with the 6.8, the AR fills that niche much better.
For me, it's the caliber first then the gun, the AR in 6.8 is a perfect marriage IMO, like when the Merlin engine was put in the Mustang.

 

[LeonCarr]

I like them and I am not tired of them.

I will say that my favorite AR is a 20 inch A1 or A2 without a bunch of useless junk hanging off of it. With the popularity of the platform sadly comes the useless junk destroying the handling characteristics of the rifle and sometimes doubling the weight, which destroys the designers original intent of a lightweight rifle.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[Llama Bob]

Y You might want to let the military know this.

Oh, they know. That's why they keep replacing the ammo in the vain hope they'll find something effective.

 

[sage5907]

A few years ago it was very seldom that I heard one during deer season. Now, they are a lot more common and I shrug my shoulders when I hear one fire several shots because I know they probably didn't get the deer. I think the AR15 fits into the category of box blinds, Polaris Rangers and lots of money to spend on ammo. I don't plan on owning one but I don't care if other people do.

 

[JShirley]

With the popularity of the platform sadly comes the useless junk destroying the handling characteristics of the rifle and sometimes doubling the weight, which destroys the designers original intent of a lightweight rifle

Well...with some qualifiers, maybe. A lightweight carbine for small shooters certainly isn't festooned with an additional four lbs of optics, lasers, and lights. At the same time, with good quality barrels and ammo, the M4 and AR15 are no longer limited to 250 meter guns, either.

I think that's speaks well, again, to the modularity of the system. I would not expect an AR15 optimized for popping varmints at 500 meters to look like one set up for kicking in doors, or one configured as a hog gun.

John

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

And so it begins.

Oh please. It started in your first post where you spouted off a non-nonsensical diatribe, declared it to have been carved in stone tablets by a flaming bush then threatened to scream heretic at anyone who disagreed with you.

Get over it. It turns out this forum is packed full of people that actually know firearms, how they are used and their limitations. And, as a bonus, we can call out bad logic when we see it. Such as, your silly assertion that because the round is illegal for hunting in some states that means the round isn't actually capable. In order for that to be true you have to believe in the infallibility of law makers. You have to actually believe that the people who write laws know about firearms, their capabilities and their limitations. Go ahead, tell us all with a straight face that you honestly believe that lawmakers are firearms experts and that the firearms laws they pass are always based on sound logic, reason and science... not arbitrary silliness.

Well, go on.

We're waiting.

Didn't think so.

FYI: Several states also limit rifle hunting to straight wall pistol cartridges, so by your prior logic those are the optimal performing deer hunting rounds and everyone using a .30-06 is some sort of heathen. Sound really stupid put that way doesn't it?

The other massive logic flaw you have going is that you are directly equating hunters with bad ethics with the equipment they use. You talk about hunters taking poorly aimed, low quality or out of range shots then expect us to ride along with you in equating this to a failing of the AR-15 when anyone with any field experience knows that low ethics hunters aren't tied to a specific firearm. I've seen poor hunters with custom rifles that cost more than my car. It's not like AR-15s are possessed of some evil spirit of bad hunting that posses any hunter that holds one in their hands. The very notion that a hunter uses an AR-15, ergo they are going to take poorly aimed or out of range shots is laughably asinine.

So yeah, I know you don't want to hear hunting stories and you just want us to take your unqualified word as if from the lips of Jehovah, but at the end of the hunting season when the all the buck tags are filled someone still has to go out and fill the doe tags or the state gets mad. That's me, and my AR. So yes, from the lips to the fingertips, through the keyboard and onto your screen, the word from an actual, as in runs a real deer ranch, professional deer guide. The AR-15 does just fine against deer. I take 20-30 of them every year with one. Not a single one has yet to get back up and complain, nor has a single one of them required a second shot.

So, if what you really just mean to say is, "and so the smackdown begins", yeah, that's what's happening right now.

 

[JShirley]

Oh, they know. That's why they keep replacing the ammo in the vain hope they'll find something effective.

Bob, that's a worthless, trolling comment. The very first report on the M16 in the 60s spoke well of the "killing power" of the system compared to the M14- it was the reliability that was a problem, due to changing powders and incorrect field maintenance procedures.

The recent 5.56x45mm competitions have primarily been driven by 3 things:
1) Attempting to find "barrier blind" ammo that would stay in a straight line after penetrating light obstacles like auto glass and car doors;
2) Attempting to eliminate lead in bullets;
30 Attempts to lower cost per round.

None of those things is related to what you said.


John

http://www.army.mil/article/41283/
http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=2879

 

[Captain O]

You aren't abusing the cartridge, however, so many do. If you are feeling targeted, there must be a reason for it. Did anyone refer to you, or your personal practices? I didn't hear that, nor had I said that. Your hunting exploits are fine. I just don't care. You are so special that you are commonplace. *yawn* (Hint: it has been done to death).

Not everyone "wets their pants" or gets "misty eyed" over the .223. It has been used, cussed and discussed endlessly. There are other, more capable cartridges on the market. The .223 is an excellent rifle for police and varmint use. You can use the .223 for deer, but the .308 and .30-'06 are far more decisive and humane as ranges increase.

You'll have to learn to live with the fact.