Is anyone else tired of the M4 and AR15?

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Captain O

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While these rifles are fine for both military and police service, IMO they have no "soul". There's no "feel" to the rifle. No "spirit" or character. Granted they are light and accurate, but it seems that some shooters view the M4/AR15 as the "be-all, end-all" rifle.

Nothing could be further from the truth! The 5.56 x 45 cartridge is illegal to hunt deer with in a fair number of states. There are a lot of "shotgun only" states where no center fire rifle cartridges are allowed, but I digress. The 5.56 x 45 cartridge isn't allowed, because it doesn't have the one-shot stopping abilities of the .25 and .30 caliber cartridges. They are great "range toys" but often fall short in the field.

I generally prefer wood and steel. Granted they may be heavier than the AR derivatives, but usually have more power than the .223" military cartridges. These are made for varmints and people. When it comes to "larger" medium-sized game, they come up short, requiring between two and three rounds fired to drop the game. This is not a good positive attribute for a hunting rifle. It tears up game, and often wounded quarry wanders off into the wilderness to perish. (This comes from overestimation of the cartridge fired for the animal being harvested).

"Slob" or egotistical "hunters" often exceed the capabilities of the round fired and ignore the consequences of their actions. The game and other men and women that hunt responsibly also suffer.

Does anyone else observe this, and hold it in contempt? I can't help thinking that the modern hunter can do much better than this. Choose an effective cartridge that doesn't tear up the game, but stops it with a well placed round.

We need to think very hard before we pull out an AR15 or M4 in .223 before we put on the camouflage, lace up your hunting boots, pack up your deer bags and hunting knives to head out this fall.

To paraphrase what Clint Eastwood said in the film Magnum Force: "A man's got to know his rifle cartridge's limitations".

Think about it.

PS: This is not the thread to regale us with your .223/5.56 x 45, M4/AR15 "hunting stories". Save it for another thread which are legion. Thank you, very much!
 
I really like the ar15 for its intended uses, and for hunting it has its place, but i agree with you about the lack of soul. Bringing down a deer with a wood and steel rifle just has a great nostalgia to it, and something in 30 cal really does it for me. I won't argue that 223 isn't adequate, but with all the better options why not be more ethical in the shot. Of course i hunt some in areas where animals are large, but the 30-06 just feels good to me.
 
The at is good for what it is good for& for the man doing the hunting . I have one & I love it for beaver crows ,coyote ,ground hogs , bobcat , &feral swine when one is all you want . its good for big gun practice with little gun price . BUTi also have a variety of calibres & style rifles up to 300weatherby & so I use what the terrain & game call for. So no there is no rifle I'm tired of .
 
Tired? Not hardly, the AR platform is a home tinkers Lego set, of course having only twenty five in the safes and giving another nine to friends and relatives should not suggest I am aflicted with "AR-itis". I have more fun building, shooting, modifying, disassembling, and rebuilding in another configuration which keeps me off the streets when the snow falls. Currently I am in Texas as guest of a buddy where I have taken a couple of 200 pound feral boars with one of my AR's, also shooting a dozen that I brought with me at steel plates and gongs at various distances.
Tired? Well my body is pretty tired but my enthusiasm for the AR platform is not. Oh then there is the issue of a .30 cal AR--- love my 300 Blackout's more than my DPMS LR 308, last year the Blaackout took a 350# boar with a single shot. The soul as you put it may not be in the rifle but it sure excites my "soul" to be firing, hunting or assembling an AR.
 
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So we are not to regale you with 5.56mm hunting stories, but are to simply submit to your stories and theories without rebuttal? I'm confused, were you seeking discourse in this to make a thread, or simply making a statement that you dislike the Stoner rifle?

I happen to be sick and tired of some M4/AR15 rifles, mostly the cheap junkers that deviate from the original concept of a fighting carbine or rifle. Threads on this are legion here and other places, so I won't go on an epic rant. Suffice to say I am sick of M4's and AR's that are improperly assembled using inferior to mil-spec parts. Sadly this covers a large number of these firearms that are being made to a price point and not a standard. Others are overpriced turds with a lot of extra machining done to them for cosmetics and no improvement in function, these often grace the covers of gun rags.

I will now ignore your pleading to not hear about the 5.56mm round being used for hunting, I've seen it work quite well on mule deer, whitetail deer, and antelope. Not my first choice, but with proper bullet selection it will do the trick.
 
I'm tired of hearing about it, you can't hardly get a good gun magazine anymore unless your an AR nut. I don't really like the platform, and I definitely don't care to read the same article over and over with not much more than the manufacturers name changed. Honestly, Guns of the Old West has become my favorite gun magazine.

I'd also consider the .223 insufficient for anything larger than coyote, I'd never deer hunt with one.
 
I agree with DeepSouth on the gun rag nonsense. Sorry I don't need to read about some ******bag boutique AR "manufacturer" that just bought a CNC milling machine and is turning out a tarted up lower and upper set with a bunch of bling parts on it. If it doesn't do anything new function wise, then it is a waste of paper and ink to write about.
 
Let me guess, the M1 carbine is far superior as a hunting rifle.

Is that what you want to hear? ;)
Not a bit. I am simply overwhelmed by how "wonderful" the .223 is when it took between 3 and 4 shots to bring down a deer the hunter spied at 350 yards. "Superior marksmanship" was exemplified when he/she had to track the animal for 1/2 mile to find it still kicking and bloodshot. Only then was it finally dispatched with a .22 long rifle to the animal's head. (You've seen it before).

Good job! :rolleyes: :fire:
 
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I'm tired of hearing about it, you can't hardly get a good gun magazine anymore unless your an AR nut. I don't really like the platform, and I definitely don't care to read the same article over and over with not much more than the manufacturers name changed. Honestly, Guns of the Old West has become my favorite gun magazine.

I'd also consider the .223 insufficient for anything larger than coyote, I'd never deer hunt with one.
Yep, same old $#!#, different month. *yawn*

And publishers look wide-eyed and wonder why I don't subscribe to their rags. As you said, they seem to recycle the same old crapola. They are a waste of ink and paper.

Nothing to see here, keep moving.
 
Not a bit. I am simply overwhelmed by how "wonderful" the .223 is when it took between 3 and 4 shots to bring down a deer the hunter spied at 350 yards. "Superior marksmanship" was exemplified when he/she had to track the animal for 1/2 mile to find it still kicking and bloodshot. Only then was it finally dispatched with a .22 long rifle the the animal's head. (You've seen it before).

Good job! :rolleyes: :fire:
That is probably not an ethical shot for most hunters no matter what they are using. Shot placement is critical, and at that range is too variable unless you have a superbly accurate rifle and shooter who is up to the task.
 
Mostly bored, and I like AR style rifles. Different calibers, new features, sure. Same design costing 4x what they should? Yawn.

Cover what's new and interesting.

And while it's possible to hunt deer and hog sized game with a 223, it isn't a good idea in my opinion. It's just marginal for an animal of that size.
 
That is probably not an ethical shot for most hunters no matter what they are using. Shot placement is critical, and at that range is too variable unless you have a superbly accurate rifle and shooter who is up to the task.
No, it isn't ethical. There are, however, unethical "hunters" that will try to pull it off... repeatedly ad nauseam.

The shot is usually preceded by the following phrases: "Hey Vern, thar's a buck! Hold my beer and watch this"!
 
I too, am sick of the AR15 platform and I haven't even finished building mine (waiting on parts to show up). The problem with this platform is that it has everything you could possibly want. It's ergonomic, it's modular to excess, it comes in just about whatever caliber you can think to cram in it, it's lightweight, and it is easy to shoot. It lacks soul, but it makes up for it from an engineering standpoint. The selection of parts is overwhelming...

As for AR's and hunting, bullet selection, barrel length (for the velocity), and distance will play a big role. Personally, if I wanted to hunt deer with this rifle, I'd build a 6x45 (6mm/223) upper and use that. About 100 FPS faster at the same bullet weight and a massive selection in bullet choice. If not a 6x45 upper, then a .300 blackout upper. Both rounds pack a lot more punch than ye olde .223 REM/5.56x45 does.
 
I was born tired of the AR15. Don't care for the word "platform" when folks are referring to a "rifle" either. But that's the popular rifle and that's the popular word.
 
I see, this is one of these threads where the OP thinks his opinion is the only one. 223 is legal for hunting here. It's the AR that isn't legal. I own a bunch and they are only for the range due to the hunting regs. If you don't like them, fine. I will clue you into something.....no firearm has a soul because they are all tools. Wood and steel is no better than wood and plastic. So feel free to bash something because you don't like it.
 
I'm not a bit tired of the AR/M4. What I am tired of, are the AR snobs. If you enjoy shooting, why would you get tired of fun, economical, an accurate firearms? Buy what you like, shoot it and have some fun, life's to short.:)
 
I really like the ar15 for its intended uses, and for hunting it has its place, but i agree with you about the lack of soul. Bringing down a deer with a wood and steel rifle just has a great nostalgia to it, and something in 30 cal really does it for me. I won't argue that 223 isn't adequate, but with all the better options why not be more ethical in the shot. Of course i hunt some in areas where animals are large, but the 30-06 just feels good to me.

There isn't much in life that can't be fixed with $500.00 and a .30-'06"! :D
 
I do hate when an animal suffers because of a lack of consideration of the shooter, because hunter he is not.
But hey the world is what it is ,because it does take all kinds . Love em lead them gently in the right direction & hope it takes. Shoot what you shoot , love what you love & allow others the same consideration . t.There are mags out there that don't even mention AR's . A Sauer 7 mm rem is my idea of a good dream if they were just a little more accurate.
 
Anything a gun magazine publishes on existing firearms is the same stuff, different month. Only new firearms are different...any yet, they're not all that different, either.

So the issue with gun magazines doesn't really amount to much with me because it's no different than for nearly any other gun.

The AR-15 never used to appeal to me at all, simply because I never found the format to be something I found esthetically pleasing. Then I shot an M-16 one day in the Navy and thought "hmmm...this is a dang accurate, nice shooting rifle!"

But still...it didn't appeal much to me.

Then I bought an M&P-15 Sport for my wife. Fitted it with a sight, took it out and sighted it in. 200 rounds later, I realized I needed to stop shooting or I'd blow through the whole case I had bought for her. It's simply one FUN rifle to shoot, and plenty accurate as well.

I think the "soul" is really nothing more than personal appeal. It's got plenty of "feel" to me, just in a different way. It weighs in at about the same as any of my other rifles, so no big deal there.

And for those who like to customize their guns...it just doesn't get much better than the AR-15 platform.


You will always have people who think this or that gun is the "be-all, end-all" of rifles, pistols, or revolvers. Meh, whatever. Certainly Glock fans (er...excuse me...GLOCK fans) think the Glock is the ultimate, for example. Whatever...I'm secure in my understanding that in reality no gun is the ultimate for every use.

As for the 5.56/.223 for deer hunting...many states, and many hunters, have put the lie to it not being legal or adequate for deer hunting. The round has plenty of penetration power and there are excellent hunting rounds made for the rifle, as well.


In the end...if any given firearm doesn't appeal to someone, no big deal. There are plenty of other choices out there and there is no reason to stick with anything one does not like.

:)
 
let's see, nearly infinitely customizable platform that has had 5 decades of development, holds an easy 30 rounds, great accuracy and muzzle velocity in a proven man-stopping cartridge, and if you don't like 5.56, you can always throw on another upper of which the caliber number of offerings is great. Or you can make it a 22lr with a 3rd upper. Available match triggers and sights are top notch. Parts are available for all levels of builder, from casual to precision. As such, one gun can serve many purposes and do so well at all of them.

What's not to like?

(well I hate the buffer tube 'spring')
 
I like the AR platform. I had mostly cowboy guns, but wanted to get into 3gun. Need a AR for that. Fun to go to the range with. On the shelf ammo still cheap.
that's just my opinion.
 
No, i think it is a great platform and versatile cartridge. At the last count I had it was only illegal in 4 states for big game in states where rifles are allowed. And these laws weren't written to exclude the 223, but are archaic laws written years before the 223 even existed to exclude the 22 Hornet. Within just the last few years as PROOF has emerged that the 223 and 22-250 loaded with proper bullets are more than adequate for deer size game several states have changed their laws to allow them. Anyone that has kept up with the advances in bullet technology understands this. We aren't living in the 1950's anymore. In 2016 a good 243 bullet will do anything a 150 gr 30-06 bullet was needed for 60 years ago.

You can now buy a very good AR for around $500, that will weigh under 7 lbs scoped that will out shoot most bolt rifles in the same price range. Depeding on how it is set up it can be a very good home defense rifle, varmint rifle and is certainly suitable for deer size game. That is a lot of rifle that covers a lot of ground that is also the cheapest center fire to shoot.
 
It took me years to fully appreciate the beauty of three platforms (for example): Bushmaster AR-15s, Remington M870s and Savage M12s. These autoloaders, pump-actions and bolt-actions possess one common, fantastic feature. They all are modular. They are so simple to service and to shoot. To boot, they are reliable and accurate. What's not to like?

Certainly I like my Winchester M70s and my Weatherby Mark V. What sets the modular designs apart is that you can service even them with minimal tools, minimal effort, minimal cost and maximum effectiveness. My solution to the .223 Rem being on the light side for deer was to purchase a S&W, M&P-10 in .308 Win. BTW, it is blisteringly accurate, and it hits hard. I bought it as a gun for my nieces and nephews to train with, as well as to hunt deer and boar.

I liken the AR rifles to the A10 Warthog: a bit homely perhaps, but packs a Hades of a lot of fire power. :)

Geno
 
Am I tired of it ? No probably not, but I get what you are saying....

I hunted with my Winchester M70 in 30-06 for more than 25 years now. I've had a few other rifles, mostly rim fire, a 30-30 and a black powder rifle. A while ago I started reloading for pistol. Naturally that prompted me to want to load for rifle. So I did what any normal person would do I bought a rifle that I could reload for. I got a cheap bolt rifle in .243. Black plastic stock and ugly. You know what ? I really enjoy that ugly rifle, and reloading for it is fun too. A year and a half ago I bought my first AR. Being budget minded I also got one all put together and on the cheaper end of the scale (Ruger AR). You know what ? It was fun too. So naturally I decided to reload for it as well, and damn this thing is pretty accurate. I've always been told a bolt action will be more accurate that any semi auto. My best group ever with any of my rifles is with my little 16" AR.

So to sum it up I get what you are saying. I'll drag the 30-06 or .243 to hunt deer. I still love wood and blued steel. They all have their place though and those black plastic rifles sure are fun, and damn they're pretty accurate too.

-Jeff
 
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