I like to put a CZ-70 loaded with 32 ACP and an extra mag in my winter coat pocket. I just carry Fiocci ball ammo in it, and I have an understanding of what that is and isn't and it is fine for my purposes.
Ammo? Maybe I’m wrong.
- Thread starter bullseye308
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I agree in spirit, .380 or bigger.
sometimes reality steps in though, and let’s say for sake of argument you can only shoot a .22 due to wrist or hand or some other ailment or injury. Then all bets are off and you carry what you can. A .22 is better than nothing and if you can put 2, 3 or 10 rounds where you want them it has a better than zero chance of helping. Especially when, according to other stats, once the attacker knows they are in a gunfight they will often cease and look for an easier target.
C-grunt
Member
I disagree that 22 and up are equal with sub optimal shot placement. When talking about the duty calibers, you can make that argument. Dropping below that, there is be noticeable differences. Ive seen plenty of people incapacitated or unable to continue their attack due to shots outside of the head and chest.
A couple buddies got into a gunfight with a chick. She took a 45 ACP 230 grain HST to the shoulder which shattered her humerus bone. She physically could no longer use that arm to continue her attack. A 22, 25, or 32 just isn't going to do that.
I've also seen the duty calibers turn leg and arm wounds into serious deadly threats. The smaller calibers rarely do that unless they direct hit the major arteries. The duty calibers can sever the arteries through direct hits or shattering the nearby bones.
Like was said before, shot placement is king and penetration is queen. However penetration doesnt mean its always straight on unobstructed shots.
A couple buddies got into a gunfight with a chick. She took a 45 ACP 230 grain HST to the shoulder which shattered her humerus bone. She physically could no longer use that arm to continue her attack. A 22, 25, or 32 just isn't going to do that.
I've also seen the duty calibers turn leg and arm wounds into serious deadly threats. The smaller calibers rarely do that unless they direct hit the major arteries. The duty calibers can sever the arteries through direct hits or shattering the nearby bones.
Like was said before, shot placement is king and penetration is queen. However penetration doesnt mean its always straight on unobstructed shots.
I'll not intentionally handicap myself on carry handgun; I can dress as I choose, work isn't a factor.
9mm minimum (HST/Golden Saber) regardless of where, including walking the dogs in a "good area".
9mm minimum (HST/Golden Saber) regardless of where, including walking the dogs in a "good area".
Technically true but needs perspective.
On a 200 lb adult male a 45 caliber hole and a 35 caliber hole are both small holes. On a 20 lb dog a 45 caliber hole is bigger relative to the size of the animal. And a 35 caliber bullet that penetrates 15" will damage more tissue than a 45 caliber hole that penetrates 12".
At the end of the day a decent HP that has proven to expand and will penetrate 12" or more is generally going to do the job. It doesn't seem to matter much what caliber it starts out as or how fast it is going.
I'm perfectly comfortable with a 9mm load that does that. But at the same time I have pistols in 45 and 10mm that I also carry at times just because I like them. To me 380 is about as small as I'll go and then only if I simply cannot make a larger pistol work.
If you're comfortable with a 22 then use it. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I'm not comfortable with one. At least not yet. I've been known to change my mind and if I see compelling evidence I will.
Rockrivr1
Member
I pocket carry a .380 pretty much every day. To me all of the above are important to making sure you put down your target/threat. In this caliber I think ammo choice is critical. I carry with Hornady Critical Defense ammo. It has a polymer insert within the JHP that allows it to pass through heavy clothing upon initial impact and then expansion to create a large deep wound channel. Seeing demonstrations of this ammo has me confident it does what it says. I've always hear people say that .380 is not an effective round due to it losing a lot of its effectiveness when passing through clothing, so this round takes that issue away to some extent. Again, all of this is subject to individual belief, where you put your rounds and your ability to pull the trigger under stress effectively when needed.
Trey Veston
Member
I carry a 10mm. I no longer worry about caliber debates.
Old_Grouch
Member
I carry a .38 Spl most of the time. I don't worry about them either.
OP
OP
I carry a 9mm and don’t worry. Imperfect shot placement is corrected by volume of fire if necessary. I do practice, and will do my best to put hits where they will work, but have no problems sharing as much ammo with the threat as necessary to convince it to stop.
Good Lord willing I’ll never have to put the theory to use, as I’m sure everyone else here feels the same way, but you plan for the worst and hope for the best.
Good Lord willing I’ll never have to put the theory to use, as I’m sure everyone else here feels the same way, but you plan for the worst and hope for the best.
OP
OP
Charlie98
Member
The cartridge I carry depends mostly on having a pistol it will fit in, that I'm able to carry concealed, that I can draw and present in a positive manner, and I can shoot with reasonable accuracy. In my case, it's a 9mm, loaded with a 124-135grn HP bullet.
It'd be great to have a .45 Super the size of a .380 pocket pistol that I could draw with reliability and shoot with reasonable accuracy... but I live in Realville.
OP
OP
I carried a gen 3 Glock 17L with a TLR-1HL IWB daily for years with my gold dot loads and only because it was a great combo that always worked. Never a problem and it was comfortable even on long drives or working all day.
Charlie98
Member
I carry a Kahr CW9... as opposed to the Kahr CM9 or PM9, all of which I own. Yes, the 'M's' pack better, but in draw and present drills I found I was fumbling with the grip even with the grip clear of clothing, and my accuracy in draw-n-shoot was not worthy, IMHO. The 1 round longer CW grip cured all of that... so that is a tradeoff I have accommodated. One of the 'M's' usually ride along as a backup piece, or stowed in my BOB.
I love that some of you can pack full-sized pistols... I can't. Because of what I do, how I'm built, and how I dress, I simply can't do it... and keep my piece concealed... unless I want to wear a sweat shirt in the TX August heat, etc. I can conceal a CW9 under a T- or polo shirt.
Glock 19 is "compact" but easily concealed AIWB under a loose untucked shirt, pattern or print helps break any bulge, as pictured:
Charlie98
Member
...for you.
Not me. Further, I'm not a Glock person... they do not fit my hands well, although I understand what you are driving at. Everyone has to find what works for them.Information like this reminds me why I like my .38/.357 snubbies. I do not own a semi, but often think about rectifying that. As of yet, though, I have not done so. The one reason I might move to a semi is the increasingly worrisome social disintegration we experience today. So a full size pistol is on the horizon for me, I think.
sgt127
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To quote a good friend of mine:
Poke a hole.
Poke it all the way through.
Poke the biggest hole you can.
Im weird about penetration. I want that round to go through a bicep, enter the chest cavity, through all the squishy stuff and, come out the other side.
I want it to shatter the pelvic girdle.
Not just through the Sternum and stop before the spine.
As mentioned. Accuracy is king. Penetration is Queen. Nothing else matters to me at that point.
Poke a hole.
Poke it all the way through.
Poke the biggest hole you can.
Im weird about penetration. I want that round to go through a bicep, enter the chest cavity, through all the squishy stuff and, come out the other side.
I want it to shatter the pelvic girdle.
Not just through the Sternum and stop before the spine.
As mentioned. Accuracy is king. Penetration is Queen. Nothing else matters to me at that point.
BlueHeelerFl
Member
As someone that does not have any hunting experience I find it interesting that a HP and a cast 44 will do similar damage. Is there a big difference with penetration ?
BlueHeelerFl
Member
I have a hard time concealing as well due to being overweight and short. A belly and love handles don't help with concealing, and limit where I can conceal on my waistline.
I then run into the next.problem. The locations that work did right on the nack of my hip, and get uncomfortable over time. The larger the gun the worse this becomes
Old_Grouch
Member
Yes, there is. Penetration is affected by resistance vs momentum. Consider two 240 grain .44 bullets at the same velocity. The cast does not expand and the hollow point expands to, oh let's say .75. Both have the same momentum (velocity x weight) but the expanded one has greater resistance so, assuming exact same shot placement, it won't penetrate as deeply.
Very little. BUT we are talking about xtp and other bullets that weren't really great at expanding. Pretty sure xtp actually stood for extreme penetration. Federal fusion is the only 44 hunting bullet I've used that may be decent for SD and i don't honestly know if it was ever advertised for SD. Plus it's a cartridge that over penetrates a white tail deer anyway. Unless you crash through a shoulder bone and then hit the other side, it's going through the deer. And I never used a scope on a 44 so I never took shots over 75 100 yard. I would push 100 yards if the situation is good. But it's Usually shorter. In 460 I've never had the bullet stop in a deer. Ive only used xtp-mag for hunting in that one. 250 or 300 gr.
In 10mm I've seen more difference. I've used silver tips and black talon back in the day. Those two and xtp are all ive seen in 10mm HP. They never done a tremendous amount more damage and didn't penetrate as far. They still blew through all the vitals and did their job. Very few went all the way through if any. I don't recall any. They did deflect a bit more than the xtp or cast. They did expand and i never lost a deer. The xtp and cast that I've used since then are pretty similar to each other. The xtp sometimes exits, sometimes not if it's slowed by a bone bigger than a rib. Same for cast. Generally though my cast is 180 while the xtp is 200. A person, id imagine would be even less likely to stop one. If your shooting through both shoulders your likely in trouble yourself claiming sd. I would think a person would be pretty similar though.
I love the xtp for hunting for the same reason I don't carry it for SD. I view it as a cast bullet that if it's hits bone might expand just a little. Lol. Ive recovered several. Never seen one id say expanded fully. Maybe in a beast bigger than a white tail. On beef I always shoot in the head. Xtp or cast.
But again my shot placement when hunting is pretty good. If I can't hit within 4 or 5 inches I'll pass on the shot. Not really an option for SD so I'll take all the expansion I can get.
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Please include ...
"better than nothing"
"wouldn't want to get shot with it"
"nobody volunteer to get shot with it"
Another bit of research:
Greg Ellifritz is the full time firearms and defensive tactics training officer for a central Ohio police department. He holds instructor or master instructor certifications in more than 75 different weapon systems, defensive tactics programs and police specialty areas. Greg has a master's degree in Public Policy and Management and is an instructor for both the Ohio Peace Officer's Training Academy and the Tactical Defense Institute.
"This study took me a long time and a lot of effort to complete. Despite the work it took, I'm glad I did it. The results I got from the study lead me to believe that there really isn't that much difference between most defensive handgun rounds and calibers. None is a death ray, but most work adequately...even the lowly .22s. I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet. There isn't one. And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important.
Take a look at the data. I hope it helps you decide what weapon to carry. No matter which gun you choose, pick one that is reliable and train with it until you can get fast accurate hits. Nothing beyond that really matters!"
https://www.fogammo.com/blogs/news/131936455-an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power
Massad Ayoob:
“Buy the best gun you can afford: Your life may literally depend on it one day. But remember, the gun you buy is only the fourth consideration when preparing to defend your life against armed criminal assault. Most important is mental awareness and preparedness; the second consideration is a knowledge of tactics that will allow you to evade and defeat armed attack; the third consideration is skill with the safety equipment (in this case, your ability to shoot well under stress), and only after all that has been achieved does it matter whether you’re carrying a Harrington & Richardson .22, or a Smith & Wesson .44 Magnum”
This is not directed at anyone in particular
You are probably not going to change my opinion on this topic, and I am probably not going to change yours. I have read the studies, and researched, and, made my decisions. I have carried from a .22 WMR revolver in a jacket pocket, to a 45 ACP or Colt on my hip, I'll not bore you with when and why. I currently carry a 9mm with 10, or a .380 with 7, sometimes I carry a reload.
My wife has a Sig p365 10 rounds of 9mm and an LCPII with 10 rounds of federal punch in .22LR. She also carries a spare mag almost always, her choice, her decision. Depending on how her hands and wrists feel on any given day she could be carrying either, but, whenever she can she is carrying something. At least at the range, she can put a hand sized group of holes center mass in a target at 10 yards, and she is getting better at Mozambique drills every time we go to the range. I am more conscientious each day about not pissing her off
Yes, I also agree any caliber is better than nothing, some are better than others, or at least make me feel like I am better prepared, and there are not any I want to get shot with
Dave
Greg Ellifritz is the full time firearms and defensive tactics training officer for a central Ohio police department. He holds instructor or master instructor certifications in more than 75 different weapon systems, defensive tactics programs and police specialty areas. Greg has a master's degree in Public Policy and Management and is an instructor for both the Ohio Peace Officer's Training Academy and the Tactical Defense Institute.
"This study took me a long time and a lot of effort to complete. Despite the work it took, I'm glad I did it. The results I got from the study lead me to believe that there really isn't that much difference between most defensive handgun rounds and calibers. None is a death ray, but most work adequately...even the lowly .22s. I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet. There isn't one. And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important.
Take a look at the data. I hope it helps you decide what weapon to carry. No matter which gun you choose, pick one that is reliable and train with it until you can get fast accurate hits. Nothing beyond that really matters!"
https://www.fogammo.com/blogs/news/131936455-an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power
Massad Ayoob:
“Buy the best gun you can afford: Your life may literally depend on it one day. But remember, the gun you buy is only the fourth consideration when preparing to defend your life against armed criminal assault. Most important is mental awareness and preparedness; the second consideration is a knowledge of tactics that will allow you to evade and defeat armed attack; the third consideration is skill with the safety equipment (in this case, your ability to shoot well under stress), and only after all that has been achieved does it matter whether you’re carrying a Harrington & Richardson .22, or a Smith & Wesson .44 Magnum”
This is not directed at anyone in particular
You are probably not going to change my opinion on this topic, and I am probably not going to change yours. I have read the studies, and researched, and, made my decisions. I have carried from a .22 WMR revolver in a jacket pocket, to a 45 ACP or Colt on my hip, I'll not bore you with when and why. I currently carry a 9mm with 10, or a .380 with 7, sometimes I carry a reload.
My wife has a Sig p365 10 rounds of 9mm and an LCPII with 10 rounds of federal punch in .22LR. She also carries a spare mag almost always, her choice, her decision. Depending on how her hands and wrists feel on any given day she could be carrying either, but, whenever she can she is carrying something. At least at the range, she can put a hand sized group of holes center mass in a target at 10 yards, and she is getting better at Mozambique drills every time we go to the range. I am more conscientious each day about not pissing her off
Yes, I also agree any caliber is better than nothing, some are better than others, or at least make me feel like I am better prepared, and there are not any I want to get shot with
Dave
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BillTell
Member
- Joined
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- Messages
- 264
Okay, some generalizations I will agree with. But this is all just a Balancing Act.
To the issue of Caliber VS Shot Placement, I'll take Shot Placement. I carry as small as .32 Winchester Silver Tips in the summer in my Seecamp, but understand that is an extremely close quarter solution if I need to use it. As soon as it's practical to carry under long sleeves, I go to my 9mm's with Gold Dot Law Enforcement Duty ammo, or one of my .45's. I believe as the weather gets colder and the clothing layers thicken, you have to increase the Caliber/Power side of the equation. These larger weapons also increase my shot distance from about 5 ft. with my Seecamp to at least 25 yards with any of my other pistols.
I am primarily a handgun hunter. I have taken many deer over the last 30+ years with various handguns. I use either 180 grain Black Talons in .357 Magnum, 240 grain XTP's in .44 Magnum, or 150 gr. soft points in .308 loaded into 7.62X39 cases. In all the years I've hunted with the handgun, I have missed twice. (once the result of a brass blowout in my Super Blackhawk) All the rest of my shots hit the deer where I aimed. What I can tell you is this. The number of deer that dropped where I hit them with the first shot I can count on one hand. Most of the time that happened, it was the result of the bullet passing close by/into the spine. Most of my kills are one shot kills. I rarely use two shots, and I have used 3 shots twice in my life. (hitting the deer 3 out of 3 shots) I practice with my extremely accurate weapons out to 100 yards, and most of the deer I shoot are in the 40-75 yard range. Most of the time the deer travel up to 40 yards after being hit. I've only had 2 deer go beyond that in my life, both of which was hit with a shotgun.
Bottom line is you can have "Dead man walking", or, worse, still coming at you with a knife. There's a reason I don't carry a single shot pistol for protection. I'll take multiple shots with the most power practical, (can't carry my .45's in a Tee shirt and gym shorts concealed) and shoot until the threat is stopped or I run out of ammo.
I hit this deer with a 180 grain Black Talon in .357 magnum from my MGM custom 9.5" barrel,
at 35/40 yards. It went through the right shoulder, through the heart , out the ribs and leg on the other side. Complete pass through 3 heavy bones. At the shot, it took 3-4 bounding leaps, and went about 40 yards. Don't think I could have had better shot placement.
To the issue of Caliber VS Shot Placement, I'll take Shot Placement. I carry as small as .32 Winchester Silver Tips in the summer in my Seecamp, but understand that is an extremely close quarter solution if I need to use it. As soon as it's practical to carry under long sleeves, I go to my 9mm's with Gold Dot Law Enforcement Duty ammo, or one of my .45's. I believe as the weather gets colder and the clothing layers thicken, you have to increase the Caliber/Power side of the equation. These larger weapons also increase my shot distance from about 5 ft. with my Seecamp to at least 25 yards with any of my other pistols.
I am primarily a handgun hunter. I have taken many deer over the last 30+ years with various handguns. I use either 180 grain Black Talons in .357 Magnum, 240 grain XTP's in .44 Magnum, or 150 gr. soft points in .308 loaded into 7.62X39 cases. In all the years I've hunted with the handgun, I have missed twice. (once the result of a brass blowout in my Super Blackhawk) All the rest of my shots hit the deer where I aimed. What I can tell you is this. The number of deer that dropped where I hit them with the first shot I can count on one hand. Most of the time that happened, it was the result of the bullet passing close by/into the spine. Most of my kills are one shot kills. I rarely use two shots, and I have used 3 shots twice in my life. (hitting the deer 3 out of 3 shots) I practice with my extremely accurate weapons out to 100 yards, and most of the deer I shoot are in the 40-75 yard range. Most of the time the deer travel up to 40 yards after being hit. I've only had 2 deer go beyond that in my life, both of which was hit with a shotgun.
Bottom line is you can have "Dead man walking", or, worse, still coming at you with a knife. There's a reason I don't carry a single shot pistol for protection. I'll take multiple shots with the most power practical, (can't carry my .45's in a Tee shirt and gym shorts concealed) and shoot until the threat is stopped or I run out of ammo.
I hit this deer with a 180 grain Black Talon in .357 magnum from my MGM custom 9.5" barrel,
at 35/40 yards. It went through the right shoulder, through the heart , out the ribs and leg on the other side. Complete pass through 3 heavy bones. At the shot, it took 3-4 bounding leaps, and went about 40 yards. Don't think I could have had better shot placement.Usually 2-4 hops. Id say that's pretty average in my experience too with my 10mm/44 and 460
Depends on the animal too though. The farthest ive had a deer run was a small one that walked out at my 100 yard target when I was shooting my 338 lapua to check alignment. Ran 200 or so yards uphill and left a massive trail. Both lungs gone.
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