Shot Placement of Heavy for Caliber Bullets to the Vitals

[147 Grain]

Heavy for caliber bullets like the 9mm 147-gr., 40 S&W 180-gr., and 45 ACP 230-gr. provide the extra penetration needed to get through extremities or bones before reaching the vitals. Almost all controlled and informal testing through various media shows a pattern of heavier bullets outperforming their lightweight counterparts across all caliber lines. (While middleweight bonded bullets are coming around nicely, heavyweight bonded projectiles still [usually] outperform them.)

The FBI uses common sense when it says that 62% of the time in OIC's, a bullet must pass through an arm / leg, or penetrate odd angles before reaching the vitals. This is why their minimum penetration standard of 12" - 16" is in effect. They also teach to aim a little higher than many PD's (used to) do because there are more significant vital areas between the armpits and above than below that area. It's no secret when PD's state that more than 1/2 of OIC's are at "odd angles" where the bullet travels a longer distance than most civilians imagine.

When someone's life is on the line, immediately stopping the threat is paramount! BG's usually expire more quickly with higher center-mass hits than the older thinking of around the bottom of the ribs / sternum (like the old-style targets encouraged you to aim for). Notice that in the past decade, range targets have raised their center ring about 3" higher than it used to be.

A couple of well-placed bullets dead-center (or a tad to the right) between the armpits can be your best friend when your life is on the line. Self defense priorities should include:

1. Shot Placement: Center Mass Between the Armpits
2. Bullet Construction / Heavy for Caliber Weight
3. Choice of Caliber

 

[Zombiphobia]

if you want the other guy down, why would you aim below the vitals?
Makes no sense, because then you're just relying on the force of the bullet's impact and a bleed-out to stop them.

I think those targets should have a vital organ diagram...
oh crap, there's a million dollar idea I just gave away.

 

[yeti]

Don't worry, your million dollar idea has already been stolen.


Zombiphobia million $ targets:banghead:

 

[147 Grain]

Novice shooters weren't intentionally aiming too low - it's just the way they were taught; understanding human anatomy wasn't a priority like it is now.

 

[Zombiphobia]

oh sweet targets. Now I have to order some...

 

[ReloaderEd]

Shot Placem Heavy Caliber Bullets

I researched bullet penetration about twenty or thirty years ago. The late Elmer keith figured a heavy hard bullet will penetrate a large game animal such as a Grizzly. All 44 magnumbs made commercially will penetrate a large bear about 3" which equals one mad bear. A good test material is a fresh cut log of hardwood. Shooting into the side or cross grain to test penetration.
A friend of mine had a 44 magnum 4" S&w Model 29 and carried it in Alaska.
He tested all the commerical shells he could find and yes averaged 2-4 inches of penetration. I purchased a 300 gr. NEI Bullet Mold for him and cast up several hundred bullets using linotype metal at 22 bhn hardness. Sized and lubed with Alox/beeswax. They penetrated 11 to 12" cross grain in the same fresh cut log. The bullets cut out of the log had no lands or grooves they had been washed of in the wood. However, Elmer Keith was correct.
The FBI did not have good luck with the 9mm Luger and that is why the 147 grain bullet came along. I believe they went to the 40 S&W for that reason.
Personally a 155 gr. 45ACP hard cast bullet going 1250 fps will do the job quite effectively. Especially if it is hollow pointed.

 

[Prosser]

This is usually an argument no one agrees with me on, but, I'll try anyway. Depending on area, bad guys tend to be big, at least the ones that have threatened me. Bullies I think, trained from birth.

So, what would you use on a deer, or hog, that weighs in the 230-350 pound range?

Here is my take.
The original .45 colt, 250-260 grains, cast relatively soft, at 1000-1100 fps worked on both horses and people. Not that I want to shoot horses, but, at the time, it was part of war.
The 45 ACP was developed to replace revolvers. Originally, using ball ammo, JMB used a 200 grain bullet at 950 fps. It was a compromise, since it was lighter by 25% or more then each round of .45 Colt, and, would penetrate well, since the bullet did not expand.
Hague and all that.

Still, the original standard was the most effective, and, can be duplicated using .45 Super, or .451SMC.
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=215
255 grain .45 cal flat nose in .45 Super, at 1070 fps is an excellent SD round, if
cover, cars, any of the urban stuff comes into play.

I would suggest BULLET CONSTRUCTION and design, not weight, is the most important factor in SD loads.

I think the bullet makers, and ammunition makers, sold the industry on HP's. Why?
Double, or way more, their profits vs. cast bullets, which can easily be made to work.
They used boogiemen 'overpenetration' and energy transfer to sell it to LEO, and, once LEO bit, it became industry standard for SD.

That said, I like the idea of hollowpoints, but, they fail sometimes, and, most of the time, they are inadequate in weight for caliber to give adequate penetration, unless the
jacket is thicker then normal, slowing expansion.

I'm often torn with ammo selection on 9MM. I am NOT convinced the 147 grain bullets are going fast enough, nor am I convinced they penetrate adequately, and, lots of ballistic gel shows 12-14" penetration, doesn't give me warm and fuzzies.
I carry a couple clips of HP HST 147's for the simple reason I got a great deal on them, and, they seem to be a best of show for that design bullet. I also carry 147 grain flat nosed, in another clip.

I think one should remember the FBI had a 12-18" window for penetration, not 14, due to their situations: cars, armour, etc.

The FBI had little choice but to go to a heavier caliber to increase bullet weight, case capacity, and therefore the weight and velocity of the HP's that are loaded for their weapons. 9MM flat nosed, at a lighter weight, say 125-130 grains would give adequate penetration, a serious increase in velocity, nearing 1300 fps, and start breathing down the .357 Mag.

Why do I discuss this? Because I have to sell myself on 9MM carry, in the PM9.
Also, one of the reasons to shoot lower was double taps, or triple were taught, and, starting low and working up can be a fairly effective method of rapid fire.

My general take is we have been sold a bill of goods. 9MM HP's, no matter what weight, need thicker jackets to slow expansion, and get up around 18" of penetration.

I don't agree with your opening statement, since I find most of those bullet weights, in hollowpoints, marginal in penetration due to bullet design. They just open up too fast, as a general rule. It seems the company that creates the biggest expansion with the HP sells the most.

My pick is for hollow points, heavy and FAST, with low pressure.
I generally find the service calibers inadequate of shooting a heavy enough hollow point fast enough to give me the warm and fuzzies, hence .451 Detonics, or .45 Super if given a choice.

With Flat point, cast, etc. that don't open up like parachutes on steroids, I don't see the need for heavy for caliber bullets, but, medium weight, and higher velocity, to deform the bullet a bit on impact, creating a wider nose, and transfering a bit more energy. Flat points, depending on construction, can be a wonderful thing.

Lee Jurras used 185 grain bullets in the .44 mag, and killed near everything on the planet, and shot over 500k rounds, easy. He changed the bullet thickness to
the game he was shooting: heavy jackets for thick skinned, so they penetrate like a solid, thin for light game, so they expand, and transfer energy in a shallow manner.
His constant was velocity, accuracy, and point of aim. Those rounds pushed 1900 fps out of a decent length barreled 44 mag.

My pick?
Under my pillow is a .500JRH, with 440 grain flat points at 950 fps. While I'm not completely sold on it, it recoils mildly, and it's already .50" caliber.

For warm and fuzzies? .475 Linebaugh, 275 grain speer HP's, at 1550 fps, a minimum pressure load for AA9.

While I'm not sure if it would be a 100% one shot stopper, I think the flash and blast would make it so, even if I missed;-)
Bullet opens up to the size of a 2 bore rifle, and, with 275 grains, it might penetrate a bit.

 

[Lonestar49]

Food for thought..

...

Great discussion..

My thanks to all - a full meal to digest..


Ls

 

[147 Grain]

Here's a nice read, with a simply summary at the end (page 19 - last paragraph of article.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

 

[Ben86]

How cliche, a guy named 147 Grain posts a thread touting the benefits of heavy for caliber bullets. I tend to prefer mid weight myself for 9mm and .380 and heavy for .40 and .45.

 

[Buck Snort]

Prosser, how would you rate a 165 gr. bullet at 1300 fps from a 44 mag?

 

[rcmodel]

In a gun fight, I'd much prefer a 55 grain bullet at 3,200 FPS.
Or a 150 at 2,800!

Hows that fit in with your theory?

rc

 

[Prosser]

147 Grain:
Kind of ironic that you are recommending that article, since it has a LOT of what I discussed in it, and, the conclusion is penetration is the most important issue, period. It also contradicts your premise, since the rounds you mention, with perhaps the exception of XTP's from Hornady, all penetrate less then 14.5" Page 12)
"Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet.
Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet."

From Page 11:
"...essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration.
While penetration up to 18 inches is preferable a handgun bullet MUST
reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft body tissue, at a minimum, regardless of whether it expands or not.
If the bullet does not reliably penetrate to these depths, it not an effective bullet for law enforcement use"

Seems that the 147 grain 9mm HP's barely just cut it, due to around 14" penetration, according to Mr. Patrick.

As for increasing bullet size increasing penetration: One issue is usually forgotten about FMJ 125-130 grain bullets: they are designed to tumble, so part way through you get the bullet going sideways, which increases wound channel in a manner similar to a hollow point, but, it still penetrates more.


Problem they have is the rounds that do penetrate either have to be non-expanding, and lighter, so the majority of their guys/girls can qualify with them, or, they recoil too much, since you don't get penetration and bullet weight for free, not to mention velocity.

"Buck Snort Prosser, how would you rate a 165 gr. bullet at 1300 fps from a 44 mag? "

Buck: First off, guys that shoot stuff a lot swear 1350 fps is about the magic number for enough velocity to really whack something, so they notice it, and that's on animals, big and small.

That said, this brass fetcher test always comes to mind when people mention
light fast, in .44 mag:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/180grHorn44mag.html

180 grain XTP, at 1571 fps, penetrates 12.6"

Your going lighter, and slower, so recoil should be near nothing, and you might actually increase penetration by slowing it down.

If I was loading a light bullet for a .44, it would be faster and heavier: H110
with 180 grain XTP, 31.5 grains for 1896 fps, that's the Lee Jurras load,
or a heavier bullet.

240 grains will move around the velocity that you are after, easily, and will go faster, like 1582 fps.

Between the two loads I just listed are a bunch of choices that should reach 18" of penetration, easily, bullets between 200 and 225 grains, that I don't have tests on.

That said, a hunter I know has used silhouette bullets at around 165-185 grains, with fantastic effect, at 1500 fps, or more, since they don't deform, and penetrate like a solid.

"rcmodel In a gun fight, I'd much prefer a 55 grain bullet at 3,200 FPS.
Or a 150 at 2,800!

Hows that fit in with your theory?

rc "

That you are comfortable with military weapons and caliber choices?
I've never really understood .223. If you buy into Weatherby, and, explosive stuff starts happening with high velocity, which I'll buy, why not a 30-06
using a .308 bullet, weighing TWICE the .223, at HIGHER velocity?
110 grain Hornady SP at 3505 fps is doable in a 30-06.

Here's a test of a 110 grain in .308, at between 3200-3400 fps. Max load, 11" of penetration, but nearly split the block into four pieces. Doesn't fit Mr. Patrick's penetration
requirement, but, I would NOT want to get shot with it, anywhere, anytime.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/110 grain Sierra Varminter.html
To go a bit further, I have a weakness for .375 H&H:
How about a 200 Grain JFP at 3121 fps, and this with only 50kcup.

 

[J.R.W.]

If we're gonna talk rifles, how about .45-70. My personal new favorite. 405gr @ ~2000fps.

 

[Prosser]

458 Lott so I can load it down to .458 Win mag, with less pressure, or up to insane.

 

[Pete D.]

heart

A couple of well-placed bullets dead-center (or a tad to the right) between the armpits can be your best friend when your life is on the line

Well, yeah....shoot'em in the heart. Doesn't take much discussion to understand that.
Pete

 

[smartshot]

you're right, the vitals are higher than they appear of FBI "Q" targets, but they aim there to maximize their hit ratio, figuring that hitting a threat somewhere is better than shooting one inch higher than his head. Its a good practice, because alot of people would miss, if they only aimed for the "armpit" area and up. I think as it stands, only 25% of the good guy's bullets connect as it is in a high stress situation.

 

[ThunderDownUnder]

Speaking of shot placement, I once worked on a homicide case where the victim had been shot the thoracic cavity with a S&W 500. Hollowpoint. It was messy. Very messy.

 

[Prosser]

Guess I'll have to get some of those 'light' .500 caliber HP's and have them loaded. My 'guys' swear by the Barnes X bullets, the full copper ones, that open up like a flower, with steel blades, at about 1600 fps, and, this is out of the .500JRH.

 

[Oyeboten]

Awhile back, I clocked a 30 odd year old round of Remington .41 Magnum 215 Grain lead Soft Point, out of an early S & W Model 58 ( four inch Barrel )...1,300 fps


I'd guess that would be a fairly good round for penetration.