Ammo size.....confused

[Ben86]

I know this sounds silly but wikipedia actually has some decent articles on calibers and on the right side of the page are bullet and case dimensions as well as other pertinent information. Back when I was a noob it's how I searched and compared different calibers in short order.

 

[Manco]

As for why .357 Magnum (actually .357 S&W Magnum, and based on .38 Special) was named as such, I would guess that it's because the "Magnum" part makes it sound powerful as it is, and that ".357" is not only the accurate diameter of the modern bullets (a personal preference of the inventor, perhaps?), but sounds cooler than ".38 Magnum" or ".36 Magnum".

Had nothing to do with cool-factor everything to do with safety.

So it was named ".357 Magnum" instead of ".38 Magnum" because of safety? Yeah, I feel SO much safer with the first name than the second name.

357 was not based on the .38 special, it was based on the 38/44.

The .38-44 HV load used the exact same case as the .38 Special. It was a super-hot, way out-of-spec load, much like "Ruger-only" .45 Colt loads today. Indeed, it was the ballistic basis for the .357 Magnum which had a lengthened case for safety reasons, but the case is based on the .38 Special case, which is what I meant. .38-44 HV was sort of a transitional thing, and a needless detail when the subject is ammo size versus caliber name. I was talking about caliber name and not case length.

 

[Manco]

Um.........

The bottom line: don't trust what the caliber name supposedly tells you--it's just a name. Look it up in Wikipedia or a reference book to find the real characteristics.

 

[ImNrml]

I'm fairly new to shooting. when I was starting out I found the huge variety in types and sizes of cartridges daunting. What helped me was realizing the vast majority of pistols I saw used a limited number of cartridges. Once I memorized these and their relation to each other it was easier for me to relate a new round to what I already knew.

I'm in the US, so the 80/20 rule might give different results depending on where you are. Gross generalizations are ahead, but will be corrected shortly by members of the community. Also, my context is defensive handguns likely to be seen in the store or a local gun range.

From smallest to largest, by handgun category:

Semi-Automatics
-------------------------
.380 ACP -- .355" diameter bullet. Spoken it's "Three-Eighty", written you'll see the ACP left off. Smaller cartridge that seems to be popular in small compact self-defense pistols
9mm Parabellum (9mm Luger, 9x19mm) -- .356" diameter bullet. Spoken it's usually just called a "Nine Millimeter". If you see 9mm written it's probably this round. I think of this as the baseline semi-auto cartridge.
.40 S&W -- .40" bullet. Another popular handgun round, larger than the 9mm. It's a new cartridge (as these things go) and has become a popular sidearm caliber for law enforcement and self-defense.
.45 ACP -- .452" bullet. I hear this called either just "Forty-five" or "45 Caliber". Large semi-auto round that's been popular for a long time. Under the 80/20 rule its probably the largest semi-auto caliber you'll see frequently.

Revolvers
--------------
.38 Special -- .357" bullet. I've only heard it called a "Thirty-Eight Special". This is the round used in your classic police/G-man revolver.
.357 Magnum -- .357" bullet. You'll hear "Three-fifty-seven" and "357 Magnum". This uses the same bullet as the .38 Special, but in a longer case.

Both
-------
.22 Long Rifle (.22lr) -- .223" bullet. Generally spoken as "Twenty-two". Very popular as a recreational cartridge. There are a number of popular semi-autos and revolvers that shoot the .22lr

Don't know if this will help, but if you are familiar with these cartridges you'll know what most common defensive handguns shoot. There are patches of logical, consistent naming across cartridges, they just aren't consistent with each other.

 

[george29]

a needless detail

which is what I meant

Accuracy of information is never a needless detail, I understand that you don't like being corrected but every member has a right to an accurate depiction and not a version of what someone actually meant.

So it was named ".357 Magnum" instead of ".38 Magnum" because of safety? Yeah, I feel SO much safer with the first name than the second name.

Your sarcasm is not appreciated, take the sarcasm to someone else and please leave it off the forum.

Indeed, it was the ballistic basis for the .357 Magnum which had a lengthened case for safety reasons

Like I said, it was called a 357 for safety reasons so that people would not attempt to load in weaker 38's, I believe the cases were elongated after the name change to ensure that this mistake could not happen. So YES Manco, it was a safety issue. Thanks for corroborating this in your own words.

Last, the 38-44 was not an attempt to make the .38 special a .38 magnum, there was an acknowledgement that the .38 special was not doing the job of penetrating car door and bulletproof vests and in order to compete with the newly designed Colt .38 Super which DID penetrate car doors & bulletproof vests, Major Doug Wesson took the .38 caliber bullet which was already in production as a .38 special, and brought the specs of the charge to that of the .38 super fully aware that the revolvers could not take that kind of pressure safely, the new 38 was built on a 44 frame.

The first 38/44 Heavy Duty was shipped from Smith & Wesson on 2 April 1930. This model was built in response to law enforcement's requirement for an arm that would shoot a high speed round which could penetrate car bodies and bullet proof vests. The collaboration between Smith & Wesson, Remington and Elmer Keith produced the 38/44 S&W cartridge which could launch a 158 grain bullet at 1175 fps and producing 460 foot pounds of energy. This round would penetrate 11ea 7/8inch thick boards and would go thru the trunk of a car, seats, dash and into the engine area. The factory first offered this gun in a 5 inch barrel, blue or nickel finish and service stocks. Some special orders were received early in production for the pistol with adjustable sights which was the precursor of the 38/44 Outdoorsman which would first appear in 1931. The 38/44 Heavy Duty was the father of the .357 Registered Magnum which appeared in 1935.

 

[Manco]

Accuracy of information is never a needless detail, I understand that you don't like being corrected but every member has a right to an accurate depiction and not a version of what someone actually meant.

I wasn't writing a treatise on caliber evolution for a reference book, I was briefly mentioning a major relationship between two prominent calibers while leaving out an obscure historical footnote since the OP, a newcomer to this stuff, was feeling overwhelmed as it is. Some may consider .38-44 HV a separate caliber, while others consider it a transitional form--just a "wildcat" load in a .38 Special case. It's not something that needs to be debated in response to a novice's questions regarding caliber designations versus the actual characteristics. Now, if .38-44 HV were common, then that would be different.

Like I said, it was called a 357 for safety reasons so that people would not attempt to load in weaker 38's, I believe the cases were elongated after the name change to ensure that this mistake could not happen.

If that was the actual intention, then a short explanation would have been nice because it's not obvious that the numerical name change would have been deemed necessary given the "Magnum" portion of the name and the lengthened case (even though the latter might have come later as you believe). I'm sorry if my sarcasm offended you, but admittedly I was slightly annoyed at having confusing details (.38-44 HV) interjected into an explanation intended for beginners (I think my explanations were probably overly involved as they were).

So YES Manco, it was a safety issue. Thanks for corroborating this in your own words.

I hope you meant that sarcastically because the redundant change to the numerical portion of the name still doesn't make me feel any safer.

Last, the 38-44 was not an attempt to make the .38 special a .38 magnum, there was an acknowledgement that the .38 special was not doing the job of penetrating car door and bulletproof vests and in order to compete with the newly designed Colt .38 Super which DID penetrate car doors & bulletproof vests, Major Doug Wesson took the .38 caliber bullet which was already in production as a .38 special, and brought the specs of the charge to that of the .38 super fully aware that the revolvers could not take that kind of pressure safely, the new 38 was built on a 44 frame.

None of which matters to nor clears up any confusion for beginners reading this thread, including the OP--that's the audience for this thread (hence my last post, which dispenses with all of the needless details).