An Encounter with a Lesson Attached....

[Dave McCracken]

I went to PGC yesterday to shoot some patterns from my TB and Frankenstein. Been having trouble at Wobble with the low angles and wanted to see if I was still on with both shotguns.

FWIW, I am hitting better with Frankenstein.

Anyway, I bought a couple patterning targets at the clubhouse. The employee who sold them told me someone was already down on Range 2 shooting some patterns but had been there a while and likely was already done. Wrong...

As I pulled in, I saw it was a friend and fellow member of the Geezer League, Doug Kelly.

He's one of the nicest guys you ever met. Even older than me, he collects fine shotguns. He was seeing where his latest was hitting. He had a stack of targets, a roll of tape and a tape measure. He was trying the new toy at 25 yards, a good distance for that bore and choke.

As you may know, Yr Humble Scrivener has little use for the picayune 410 bore. This was so pretty I didn't even care it was a 410.

Think of a high grade Parker SxS with sumptous wood, skeleton butt, fine engraving and two pencil sized holes at the back end of the barrels. Yup, a fine 410. Chokes were .009 and .011".

Doug let me hold it. I did so carefully, knowing it was worth more than most SUVs. Shouldering it felt good, and it came to point like a full sized double even with its 5 lb weight.

You'd like it, trust me...

So, I stood by while Doug fired a series of loads from 25 yards, seeking the best pattern at that distance for skeet and even some live pigeons.

Afterwards, Doug helped me set up and marked off 16 yards with his tape measure while I unsocked Frank and grabbed 3 shells. Standing at 16 yards, I shot as if the mark at the center was a bird flying straight away from me. No aiming, bringing up the 870 and shooting as it touched my cheek like I do on clays and birds. Repeated twice, then walked up and checked the impacts.
I had a choke in that barrel of 39 POC, and the whole spread was maybe 10". Clearly, the patterns were centered for windage, but all the pellets were above the aiming mark. Instead of 60-40, it was more like 100/0. This explained the misses on the low angle shots.

Shooting the TB was the same, except the patterns center were a bit left, like 2", and just as high.

Here's the rule, moving the stock 1/16" will move the pattern 1 inch at 16 yards. The Brits came up with this, and it does work for most folks.

So, to regain the POI I like, I'll have to drop the stock about 1/4" and shim in some cast on the TB, about 1/8 for starters.

Fit is crucial and it does change as we age, gain/lose weight, etc. My form has changed due to this thrice accursed arthritis.

After we cleaned up and I headed for Range 7, I got to musing.

Between Doug and myself, we have about a century of shotgunning behind us.

We were out there, while a number of less experienced, younger shooters were up on the other ranges with shotguns they've never patterned or at least not recently.

Patterning is simple, fast and inexpensive. It ID's probs and lets us know how to fix them.

Why don't more folks do it?.....

 

[sm]

Excellent Post!

Here's the rule, moving the stock 1/16" will move the pattern 1 inch at 16 yards. The Brits came up with this, and it does work for most folks.

To be read again and again and again...

Folks change as they age. I am not just referring to kids, adults change as well.

Patterning is simple, fast and inexpensive. It ID's probs and lets us know how to fix them.

Why don't more folks do it?.....

Folks want to buy skill and targets.

It is not "in" to actually earn anything. IF one 'buys' what is "supposed" to be what Team Walrus uses...good to go.

I'm not being cynical, I am being dead serious. Folks teach Folks how to treat them.

I have a LOT of respect for a lot of members here. Mr. Jim Kennan is just one such person.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2145348&postcount=4

I have said before and will repeat - because the makers believe they are making expensive toys for gun nuts, not serious weapons.

Not just shotguns and patterning. Folks, no matter what firearm platform, want to be "accepted into" circles. Sad, many feel they can "buy" this acceptance.

Each individual is different. Each firearm and each each loading is different. One only knows if they actually go out and learn, train, pattern their guns and loads for tasks.

Steve

 

[BozemanMT]

As a reasonably new shooter (19 months) who shoots pretty well I think (larry, you can speak up here, I'll pay you the $20 later. ) and the wife who shoots better than me after 6 months I think I can speak to this.

You don't wanna take time to pattern (even when the board is on the course). It's something only those "old" guys do who are really good (Of course, you never make the connection. )

But, in august, after the new SxS was bought by my wife, we were walking back with extra shells and said "let's pattern these"

VERY INTERESTING results. Beuatiful patterns from our reloads (patting self on back), but the wife's Lanbeer bottom barrel shot right about 6 inches. so, that's something she began to compensate for. Was very interesting. We now pattern our new guns almost immediately. (not quite, but we try)

The other part is, a guy I shoot with who definately shoots better than I do (already a 50 straight at trap, and mid 70's on a TOUGH sporting clays course ) and we started at exactly the same time. He's never patterned his gun. He refuses to do it, even when we walk by the pattern board. I dunno, but he shoots better than me.
I figure more information is better.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

Guilty as charged...

The only gun I have patterned extensively is my 28 ga 870. The rest I just shoot.

Slacking, I know. I promise to do better.

larry, you can speak up here, I'll pay you the $20 later.

Brian, I still owe you big time, so I'll give you a 10% discount.

Brian is a good shot, I saw him. Doesn't mean I didn't notice the couple times he missed the first bird and I smoked both, but still...

 

[axeman_g]

patterning

To be honest, I used to pattern all my shotguns at a indoor rifle range until the owner stopped allowing shotguns for some reason.

The local trap/skeet facilities here that are open to the public do not have a patterning area. This is but one of the many reasons I cant wait to join a private club when I move.

I am seriously in need of some patterning right now for my new to me citori and a 870 sp I cant shoot well.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks, folks.

Steve, not enough people know that the price of expertise is measured in sweat, not dollars.

I know folks who have dropped thousands on new guns, gadgets, etc, but have not done 15 minutes of patterning in their lives.

Brian,my Father had no need to pattern hs favorite shotgun, it worked so well in his hands it didn't matter. But, he had me pattern on a ramshackle shed later burned for practice so I'd know where my old 16 was shooting. I must have painted that wall white 20 times.

Larry, you're forgiven.( Hand raised in benediction) Now go forth and pattern, my son....

Axe, you've got the right idea. There may be another reason for poor shooting with a given shotgun, but patterning removes some variables.....

 

[sm]

Couple of Thoughts if I May...

- I do understand not everyone has a place to pattern shotguns. Some Ranges are not set up, or if they were at one time- the pattern board material is all shot up, in need of repair. Lack of Room [read: safe areas with backstop] or, as mentioned, indoor ranges no longer allow. Add weather being cooler and some parts of the country, just have a lot of wet, snow, mud...

-Talk to club leaders and donate pattern board material. Get some friends to go in with with you on the cost and building of. Let this be part of your "passing forward" in the contributions to club. Even if not a member, just a responsible guest, family member of guest, visitor of guest.

-Same applies to a friend out in the country, with a safe area to shoot. Again Responsible Shooters and Hunters do these things.

-Hay Bales if you have them work, also double for Archery Practice. If you have Bales of Hay, donate some. These also work to protect trap machines used in 5 stand and Sporting Clays.

-Perhaps one has access to Plywood, Drywall, Building materials...Donate these and your time. Then again if you don't - going in with a few friends this is not expensive, and the rewards outweigh the cost. And not just the lessons from patterning your gun.

-One does not have to get fancy, or all complicated. Sure on Range or Club being nice and matching surroundings is nice, again check with Club leaders. Just often times the main thing is safe area with backstops.
For instance Having a Red Flag to show "hot range" is good, shows responsiblity and if any folks not into guns show up to snoop...knocks the winds out of their sails as to how bad guns and owners are.

-Simple wooden or metal frames, with standard dimensions are best. Say for instance think of an "Easel" with 4X4 "frame". This just takes a standard 4x8 cut into.

-Easiest way I know to hang targets is to take Weed-Whacker line, and using 2 small eye bolts at top and 2 at bottom. Clothes pins hold the top, the paper goes behind the line on the bottom.

-Just keep some extra clothes pins, weed-whacker line and eye bolts handy next to pattern board, just have a duffle bag or pull along tote is better. Old ice chests with wheels, those garden totes, wagons ...anything to allow one to tote out and bring back in.

-Don't forget the trash can.

-Distances, Tape measure donated works, then again knowing one's stride is not a bad skill to know anyway.

-For ease of mowing , easy to drill into groud, insert PVC at various ranges and just stick a flag made from coat hangers with yardage, like those flags lawn maintenance folks use. Just pull up when time to leave, the folks doing mowing appreciate this.

One of the last times I assisted someone patterning, snagged a cardboard box a dishwasher came in. Bungie Cord top and bottom, old tire inside to keep box in place. Newpaper company has these stacks of blank newsprint for free for the asking - still tip the folks.

We walked off various distances, shot, made notes, then the spare tire was put back in the shed, bungie cords hung back on wall, box in burn barrel.

Got an old Hoola-Hoop and not sure what to do with it? Cut it and re-tape for 30" circle.

Sharpie pens with a 15" piece of string works...but I have drawn enough circles and counted enough pellets, I normally stick a pc of tape , mount gun to face and shoot. If someone else , like a kid wants finally get out of the hoola-hoop for a dog, wants to place over the holes..."Now that is pretty cool".

Slugs: I normally use the small dessert size paper plates, or index cards.

IIRC Clint Smith is one, Awerbuck another suggests using 9" paper plates with a 3x5 index card atop. Yeah it looks like a Teddy. While this is great for handgun drills, works great for shotguns too.

I often use the smaller plates and fold the index card into, or use a Post-It note.

This replicates longer distances with the targets being smaller. Trains the brain to focus , especially under stress, that aim small - miss small. Perhaps "point small" - "dust small".

Kids.
These are our future. Get them involved making these, these are shared moments and kids grow up too fast.

Show a kid how to take a yardstick and draw a line horizontal and vertical. Now they have 4 quandrants. Easier to count pellets.
There is a math lesson in here.

One can hear a "light bulb" go off in a kids brain. Say the loading has 400 pellets according to chart ( pellet size to the ounce). "Oh...oh...400/4 = 100, and if I were to do this ( adds lines, bisects a angle to get another line...).

400/8 = 50, and that geometry stuff does come in handy"

There is something very rewarding when a parent whom home-schools, shares her kid, just had to use the eraser board, ruin the board marker making dots, to show how a pattern board works...

"Yeah mom, dad, if I take a protractor I can do a 45* here and do this".

Hey I may still suck at math, I still know how drive a teacher nuts tho'...better if the teachers are the parents.

Kids: PLEASE do NOT use mom's best Cassarole Dish to dump pellets so you can count them to make sure the pellets to the ounce chart is correct. Do wear gloves and wash hands...I get into enough trouble all by myself, I do not need your help.

It is good to be the Adopted Uncle.

 

[P95Carry]

Dave - A1 info

Steve - even more A1 info.

I am bad at patterning - why? Doggone laziness, to get things all set up - simple as that! Too often my range trip is everything but shottie - and yet usually have place to myself so really no excuse!!

 

[sm]

Just for Chris

Now you other folks just read another thread...go on...

Chris my friend,
Have I got a deal for you. I know how you like big bores. I have seen your pics of low light muzzle blasts. You do great photography and we have spoken of many things on the phone...except.

Pattern one's gun in low light and dark.

There is NO gurarntee one is going to have a 70* sunshine day when they shoot a shotgun. Trust me I know, I competed in blistering heat, freezing cold, ice, sleet, snow, and even thought one is not supposed to compete when there is lightening, or the tornado warning is blaring...I've done that too.

Shoot off's were often at low light , or under the lights with white targets.

Shooting at low light, or darkness is different than shooting in light of day.

Yes I pattern guns at low light or darkness. Controlled enviornment, Extra Safety measures applied.

Do check and make arrangements in regards to lights and shooting after dark - as in many areas one may be accused of hunting/ poaching at night. Check your Reg's.

Still one may do very well in "getting gun to face and hitting" during light of day.
WE all shoot different in low light and dark.

I'm not using Sure-Fires, or any mounted lights, this is good and advisable for those that do.

One may only have a single light on property, a coyote comes onto property. Perhaps a motion light is the light, and say again the postitive ID of critter is seen , then into shadow fringes.

One drill we do...is there is low watt bulb with a switch that throws light onto target.

Part of this is awareness, how to evade and retreat as some states require.

It also teaches one to "see" , identify a threat, or not.

Old Pants legs stuffed, and pulled laterally, with a motion light coming on to simulate a coyote, whatever...that had just eaten the family pet is the target.

Just get someone else to take the pics of the shotgun muzzle blast.

You can use this with new shooters you teach to remind them of choosing loads in any firearm for defense and muzzle blast affecting their ability to get off subsequent shots.

Beats watching TV.

 

[P95Carry]

Haha - most anything beats watching TV!! I watch mainly the weather channel - and sometimes too the weather channel!

Good points re reduced light Steve - in fact I have often been at the range late - which was how that muzzle blast pic got done.

So maybe I must take along old Mr 870 for end of session excercize - good idea and I may well yet achieve that! I would need an assistant tho to get the muzzle blast pics - got me thinking tho

 

[farscott]

I am a shotgun novice; however, I have patterned every shotgun I own before doing anything "real" with it. I find that, due to my small stature, I often need to have adjustments made to the standard stocks before I can have a shotgun hit where I FEEL I am pointing it. If the gun is meant for hunting, I pattern it with the coat I intend to wear. If the gun is for sports, I pattern it with a shirt I might wear on the trap range.

I often use ad hoc patterning boards, including once using an old sheet hanging from the clothesline with the other end weighted down with bricks, on my own property. Not pretty, but it works.

 

[TrapperReady]

I pattern my target loads with my two main clays guns and I do it with a variety of choke tubes as well. Hunting shells get shot at a pattern board, and I do a quick visual inspection... "Does the pattern look dense enough to kill the intended game?". Personally, I don't like counting holes unless I think it's absolutely necessary.

Almost all of my guns have been shot at a board at least to verify the POI.

However, I will admit to sometimes using "guesstimation" on a gun or load and simply shooting a round or two of sporting clays. If the targets are breaking well, then I may not worry about patterning. If my scores drop, then I'll see what's going on.

 

[P95Carry]

If the targets are breaking well, then I may not worry about patterning. If my scores drop, then I'll see what's going on.

Ahhh Trapper - good, someone else who does it my way at times

 

[sm]

Steve's Tip...oh heck I forget what number...

Box of broken targets are usually free for the asking. Load trap machine with broken target, yell "pull" , slap trigger and fire downrange...

"Dang Chris! You are really good, why that target just barely made it out from the trap house before you busted it..."

Yeah I know, another brilliant tip.

Hey, sometimes one does not have time to pattern - it happens. Don't mean one cannot look good in front of folks that don't know better.

Hey, us older folks like Dave, Chris...do know a few things.

"Cheating, Blackmail and Bribery will outdo youth and skill".

I had a T shirt with that on it, a hat too. I gave it to a 23 y/o single gal...she outshot her best friend...age 21. Guess you had to be there...

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

Doggone laziness, to get things all set up - simple as that!

Me too, can I use that excuse?

Oh, wait, I have a berm out back, ten steps away. It's too muddy! Oh, yeah, there are those two t-posts out in the field for when the range is muddy, 3/4 mile of nothing but trees beyond it.

Pheasant hunt for tomorrow fell through, its gonna be 70 degrees here tomorrow, and I'm shooting some clays with another THR member on Sunday. Looks like the Citori is due for some patterning. Most likely use the 28's more anyway.

Steve, I never thought of trying the low light shooting. The closest I've ever come was probably "dusking" on ducks, or early mornings in the blind. And its not like we don't have coyotes around here either, I've killed two in the last three weeks (25-06, broad daylight).

Oh, and Steve, I read your post to Chris only. Can't help it, I'm just nosy.

 

[9mmMike]

Around here, it is difficult to find anywhere to pattern. Even at one of the first "high class" SC course, the patterning board was always in a state of disrepair and all but unusable.
I finally had to set up targets at an outside pistol range.
I would not be at all surprised to hear that over 90% of the shotgunners around here have never patterned, ever.

 

[riverdog]

Another one guilty as charged. . .

. . .and my range has a patterning board set up, they just don't provide targets.

. . .Afterwards, Doug helped me set up and marked off 16 yards with his tape measure while I unsocked Frank and grabbed 3 shells. Standing at 16 yards, I shot as if the mark at the center was a bird flying straight away from me. No aiming, bringing up the 870 and shooting as it touched my cheek like I do on clays and birds. Repeated twice, then walked up and checked the impacts. . .

Okay, but why is the gun patterned at 16 yds when the 16 Yard Trap clay will normally be taken beyond 30 yards? In my neophyte mind it seems that besides checking POI of the gun, shot density with different chokes & shot should/could also be checked to determine optimum choke & shot combinations. I've been using an IM choke in my 870, but I may be better served by shooting Mod from the 16 yard line. My BT-99 came with only a Mod choke on it's back-bored barrel, so maybe that's optimum, but it may be too tight. Fortunately a full set of chokes came with my 525.

Do you shoot at 16 so that the entire pattern stays on paper and just extrapolate the pattern/density at twice that range. That actually makes sense if it holds in practice. If that is the case, what is the optimum pattern spread at 16 yards for Trap? Thanks for this thread -- inquiring minds.

 

[Dave McCracken]

You missed the part down further,my friend. Moving the Center Of Pattern 1 inch at 16 yards requires moving the stock 1/16" in the proper direction. IOW, to drop the pattern 4" at 16 yards, I should move the stock down 4/16 or 1/4".

This has little to do with 16 yard trap. Sorry about the mixup....

To make this as easy as possible, use the tightest choke on hand.

 

[riverdog]

Thanks for clarifying, that's pretty straightforward. I was confusing your 16 yds with the 16 yard line and it didn't make sense, now I see that the two 16's weren't supposed to correlate. This is very doable, I've got Full chokes for everything here.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Full will work. The TB has 28 POC, the choke tube in Frank had 39.

It's important to shoot as if at a live bird flying directly away, do not aim or premount.

 

[anapex]

I too am guilty of giving Dave a "blank stare" when he asks if I've patterned a gun yet. Can I just claim that having Dave shoot the gun is my form of patterning?

 

[TrapperReady]

Can I just claim that having Dave shoot the gun is my form of patterning?

No.

But having Dave pattern your gun would count. Steve seems pretty devious. You might want to PM him and see if he has any suggestions about how to make that happen.

 

[Dave McCracken]

There's all kinds of bennies to patterning. I went to PGC this afternoon to check a few things on #6. As I put up the first patterning sheet, I looked down and noticed a knife someone had lost.

It's a Benchmade Mini Styker. Looks like a decent piece, but way tactical with the tanto point, half serrations, etc.

anapex, when diaper changing and so on allows, I'll be glad to take you down to Range II and walk you through your initiation with the patterning board.

 

[anapex]

I think I may try to sneak away this week Dave. I have a christmas present I bought myself that's just been begging to be shot.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Another Shotgun?!.....

Which works better for you, Saturday or Sunday?