An interesting thought..

[LRS_Ranger]

I have been trying to find a good IDPA load for my Springfield .45 and in the course of doing so, I've come up with a good light, accurate, fast shooting load. I don't know if it meets power factor because I don't have a chrono, but I plan to test that soon. I've settled on 3.5 gr of TiteGroup under a 230Gr laser-cast solid. Anyway, I was thinking that a bullet that slow might not have some of the over penetration attributes that a regular full-power FMJ load does. Would this make it a good candidate for a SD round? I'm not too worried on expansion, as it's a 45, and I figure if a 45 cal solid will bring down a cape buffalo, it should work for a 2 legged predator. In addition, as I shoot a ton of these things, I'm pretty good with them, and I know that they feed 100% reliable. Finally, you wouldn't have to worry about your HP design failing for whatever reason; a winter jacket isn't going to plug a round nose.

Please don't turn this into a caliber discussion, I don't care that a 9mm HP will expand to bigger than .45 inches. I know that you aren't supposed to use hand loads for self defense, but I'm not too concerned with that for the purposes of this discussion. With that being said, whaddya all think? Anybody have some ballistic gel?

 

[303Jeff]

I'll say this...

That bullet must be going about 600 fps, more or less. And in a gun designed for .45 ACP-especially if it's a 1911-you should have less recoil than a factory 9mm. I'll look up the calculations, but you may end up with a .45 with about the knockdown power of the 9mm. Which isn't something to sneeze at. I don't know, I would be interested to see come calculations though.

 

[303Jeff]

Okay after looking around, I think I may have found something interesting. If that thing is going 650 fps, who knows how fast it's going but let's assume 650, then it should have about 216 ft-lbs of force. A 124 gr 9mm +P at 1180 fps has 383 ft-lbs of force. I'd say stick with factory rounds...

Edit: Now I see what you were angling for. Shooting FMJ instead of hollow points without over-penetration. Only thing is, even if it dumps all of its energy in the target, it's less than a 9mm +P HP, which as you say can expand over .45 inches. If anything I would say you could go with a stronger load and still shoot FMJ. Man, what a good question, it's quite a thought-provoker.

 

[LRS_Ranger]

Yea, I know it's a low energy round, but I've never really subscribed to the "energy is the end all" point of view. As slow as they are going they tend to smash up whatever I shoot at pretty good. The bullet that solidified the .45 as the "man stopper" was the FMJ in WWI and WWII. If that bullet goes clean through the target, all it is really doing is punching a hole almost a half inch across through the target. It seems to me that whether the slug stops in the target or keeps going through, it's not going to really matter as long as the plumbing is hit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't a lot of the African big bores like the 458 Lott getting complete pass throughs on big game? Even if not they sure aren't getting any expansion, which means a simple .45 hole through the vitals. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. If I could bet on which would be the most effective, a 45 slug or a 17 bullet with the same energy, my vote would be on the 45. Of course the 17 is going much faster, but I would count on the 45 stopping the threat faster, simply because it is going to smash a big freaking hole in whatever it hits.

I should do a penetration test with water jugs or phone books, as unscientific as that is. And you are right about not much recoil.. the split times out of my TRP are pretty speedy! Also one other thing to think about, a soft 45 is going to have a lot less flash and muzzle blast than a hot 9mm. Ever shot out of a car? You don't think about noise and concussion till you try it!

Just more midnight musings....

 

[Oyeboten]

In this regard, to my mind anyway, for slower speeds of FPS ( under 800 say, ) a flat front Wadcutter, or a semi Wad loaded backwards, out of a .45 Caliber Revolver, would tend to do even better, at same FPS, than any of the Bullet shapes likely to be chambered by a 1911 type.

 

[LRS_Ranger]

True. Too bad "Deadliest Warrior" and their anatomically correct gel dummies doesn't do a test for us. Will a slow heavy slug fail to shoot through and still do enough damage...

 

[Sam1911]

I have been trying to find a good IDPA load for my Springfield .45 and in the course of doing so, I've come up with a good light, accurate, fast shooting load. I don't know if it meets power factor because I don't have a chrono, but I plan to test that soon.

That's half a grain under the listed starting load for a 230 gr. lead round nose. To make IDPA power floor you'll need to be moving them at better than 718 fps. Hodgdon says if you were loading 4.0 gr. you should be getting around 751 fps, which would be a good safety margin -- though every gun is different and you won't know what you have until you chrono it in your gun.

As for punching holes in bad guys, yeah it will probably work. People have killed other people with a whole lot less for centuries now. I'd never trust any load that would penetrate "enough" not to penetrate "too much" if something I cared about was behind it -- and I think the whole argument about "over-penetration" is so much wasted breath to begin with.

In a defensive shooting, you are almost certainly going to shoot multiple shots, and the most trained shooter stands a far better than 50% chance of missing his mark with some of them. Hard to worry about OVER-penetration when you've got stray bullets headed off into the background that haven't been slowed down by Mr. Badguy's tissues. But that's just my philosophy and I have to consider that as I envision defensive shooting situations.

 

[303Jeff]

Well it certainly brings up some interesting points from many different sides of the equation, but really I think the revelation here is that there isn't any right or wrong answer. You can debate about the advantages of this and disadvantages of that, but as Sam said, in the end you need to just hit the target.

After doing some thinking about Sam's post I think I personally may just want to go with whatever has the biggest diameter, controllable recoil, and decent speed. That says 45 ACP to me, no matter what load. Maybe .40 S&W. Or maybe 454 Casull, who knows.

 

[fireman 9731]

While its certainly better than nothing, if you want less penetration, go with a lighter bullet.

That being said, if you are accustomed to it, and it has proven accurate and reliable, shoot it all day long. There are far worse options out there.