Anatomy of a knock-out
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chimera101
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"Street fights are rarely one-on-one...better to run away if you can..."
I took martial arts for many years and there were several things they always stressed about street fighting:
1. Avoid a fight at all costs. It's ok to run/walk away.
2. Only fight to protect yourself or someone else.
3. If you are forced to fight, fight to win.
I took martial arts for many years and there were several things they always stressed about street fighting:
1. Avoid a fight at all costs. It's ok to run/walk away.
2. Only fight to protect yourself or someone else.
3. If you are forced to fight, fight to win.
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
I've been in a good many fights outside of the dojo. Lost three. Sustained closed head injuries in all three. All three were from behind. In one, an onlooker just couldn't stand it any more, jumped out of the crowd, coldcocked me, and then attacked the guy I was fighting
Amnesia for three days.
In another, I was suddenly hit from behind with a baseball bat...didn't know I was in a fight until then. Paralyzed my leg for a few minutes.
I don't remember what happened the third time for some reason.
Working on situatiional awareness should be your first priority.
I work as an Emergency Department RN. It's been several years since I've studied this question but I've seen quite a few posts here on the mechanics of a knockout that neuroscientists disproved quite some time ago. The last time I checked neuroscience was not absolutely sure of the mechanism(s) involved.
One thing to remember about such injury is that the damage is cumulative with each subsequent insult.
Now, don't get me wrong with my saying this for I think highly of Brazilian Jiujitsu, but I had a guy say to me once,"Brazilian Jiujitsu is the best one on one unarmed martial art in the world."
I replied,"That may well be true but it still leaves you with two problems-finding a way to fight me one on one and finding a way to fight me unarmed."
Amnesia for three days.In another, I was suddenly hit from behind with a baseball bat...didn't know I was in a fight until then. Paralyzed my leg for a few minutes.
I don't remember what happened the third time for some reason.
Working on situatiional awareness should be your first priority.
I work as an Emergency Department RN. It's been several years since I've studied this question but I've seen quite a few posts here on the mechanics of a knockout that neuroscientists disproved quite some time ago. The last time I checked neuroscience was not absolutely sure of the mechanism(s) involved.
One thing to remember about such injury is that the damage is cumulative with each subsequent insult.
Now, don't get me wrong with my saying this for I think highly of Brazilian Jiujitsu, but I had a guy say to me once,"Brazilian Jiujitsu is the best one on one unarmed martial art in the world."
I replied,"That may well be true but it still leaves you with two problems-finding a way to fight me one on one and finding a way to fight me unarmed."
Cosmoline
Member
There you go.
If any of your plans involve getting within grabbing distance of a foe, I'd suggest you make other plans. I'd put almost no value in unarmed martial arts, except as a means of getting to your iron or an exit safely. If the threat is non-lethal, you should concentrate on escape. If the threat is lethal, you'd better have something in your hand.
thexrayboy
Member
Research using MRI scans over time is showing that many soccer players display changes in brain structure consistent with physical damage. The mechanisms of KO and concussion are still poorly understood at this time.
However evidence is becoming conclusive that even minor but repetetive insult to the brain can become cumulative and lead to significant sequelae later in life. Muhammed Ali did not develop his condition overnite. He is in all probability paying a dear price now for the fame and fortune boxing brought him in the 60's and 70's. Steve Young of 49er fame could also say a
few words about the costs incurred from multiple concussions.
its not legal to carry or own a gun here.......
....... so most things go to fights in the uk. i've worked in security all my life and did ok at boxing. like previous replys, keep that chin down.... sort of look thru ya eyebrows. the top tip i can give ya is to recognise the point in any confromtation (if there is one) when you just KNOW its gonna go physical. act now and be fast and aggresive. the 1st person to react to this wins the fight in over 90% of the scraps. be 1st. act as soon as you know its gonna go bad.
....... so most things go to fights in the uk. i've worked in security all my life and did ok at boxing. like previous replys, keep that chin down.... sort of look thru ya eyebrows. the top tip i can give ya is to recognise the point in any confromtation (if there is one) when you just KNOW its gonna go physical. act now and be fast and aggresive. the 1st person to react to this wins the fight in over 90% of the scraps. be 1st. act as soon as you know its gonna go bad.
James T Thomas
Member
beating or the punch
"Chrisyuk:"
Your post about seeing the blow before it occurs is valuable; a premptive strike is best.
The "hook" seems to be unseen before it lands, rather than the quick jab or straight right. Right?
"Chrisyuk:"
Your post about seeing the blow before it occurs is valuable; a premptive strike is best.
The "hook" seems to be unseen before it lands, rather than the quick jab or straight right. Right?
SSN Vet
Member
stay light on your feet and get the heck out of the way.
james t
the most popular shot thrown at me by far "on the cobbles" as we like to say is what i call the "school yard right" - its a big arcing over-the-shoulder type clumsy hook. imagine ya tv starts flickering and you give it a tap on top, that sorta angal. now this is really easy to see comin off untrained guys. they suck up a load a air, position emselves side on with left leg in front (if you give em room to they will take small left leg step forward - if ya don't right leg steps back ) then arm and shoulder swings back and you know the rest. you should try and be stood not quite side on but NEVER flat to em and to gain space have both hands open and non-aggresivly chest hight and maybe 10 or so inches away from ya self. this is ya "guard" or "fence" and should control the guy to make him step back to throw the shot. so when he does step back and you see the start of the swing, your own short straight right basically has caught him on the "run up". as you get good at seein this stuff you will learn to bang em out long before the pysical signs appear. if you can throw a punch ( no substitute for boxing ) by the time your gone they will be wakin up with a crowd round em.......
the most popular shot thrown at me by far "on the cobbles" as we like to say is what i call the "school yard right" - its a big arcing over-the-shoulder type clumsy hook. imagine ya tv starts flickering and you give it a tap on top, that sorta angal. now this is really easy to see comin off untrained guys. they suck up a load a air, position emselves side on with left leg in front (if you give em room to they will take small left leg step forward - if ya don't right leg steps back ) then arm and shoulder swings back and you know the rest. you should try and be stood not quite side on but NEVER flat to em and to gain space have both hands open and non-aggresivly chest hight and maybe 10 or so inches away from ya self. this is ya "guard" or "fence" and should control the guy to make him step back to throw the shot. so when he does step back and you see the start of the swing, your own short straight right basically has caught him on the "run up". as you get good at seein this stuff you will learn to bang em out long before the pysical signs appear. if you can throw a punch ( no substitute for boxing ) by the time your gone they will be wakin up with a crowd round em.......
James T Thomas
Member
sweet science
"Chris-"
Your description and recommendations are great. Thanks.
Jim
"Chris-"
Your description and recommendations are great. Thanks.
Jim
A person can't knock you out if they can't get close enough with their fists in the first place-take out his knee with a low kick, most people are extremely clumsy and can't avoid a low knee kick even if they see it coming. And once he collapses, follow up blows or running are options.
"The mechanisms of KO and concussion are still poorly understood at this time."
Bingo!
Many folks who suffer head trauma with resulting unconsciousness wake in a few moments and show no lasting effects. The best explanation I have encountered is the same as 'hitting the funny bone' type response. The nerve discharges in response to the physical blow. Patients should still be checked for intra cranial bleeding. Observation is often all that is required for about 24 hours to make sure no further symptoms occur.
A harder blow may produce localized bleeding. Either on the surface or in the brain tissue itself. CNS tissue is relatively soft stuff. It is softer than jello. A rise in pressure can even cause CNS tissue to be extruded from burr holes intended to relieve the pressure. For serious bleeding cranial capping is sometimes better option.
A very hard blow can move all the way to tearing of CNS tissue, typically accompanied by bleeding. These are very dangerous injuries, often accompanied with bone fractures.
Blood is not good for CNS material. Besides the rise in pressure withing the confines of the skull, blood contact itself appears to cause damage to neurons.
The typical cause of death from intra cranial pressure is the pushing of the brain stem down through the base of the skull (the hole where the spinal cord enters the skull).
The opening is relatively small, and as pressure in the skull rises the brain is pushed down towards the opening. The pressure from the skull on the stem causes nerve conduction problems for the CNS and muscle control required for respiration is impaired.
Keeping the chin down can help prevent an opponent from gaining a hold and snapping the skull backwards, with the resulting fore and aft rebound of the brain itself.
Bingo!
Many folks who suffer head trauma with resulting unconsciousness wake in a few moments and show no lasting effects. The best explanation I have encountered is the same as 'hitting the funny bone' type response. The nerve discharges in response to the physical blow. Patients should still be checked for intra cranial bleeding. Observation is often all that is required for about 24 hours to make sure no further symptoms occur.
A harder blow may produce localized bleeding. Either on the surface or in the brain tissue itself. CNS tissue is relatively soft stuff. It is softer than jello. A rise in pressure can even cause CNS tissue to be extruded from burr holes intended to relieve the pressure. For serious bleeding cranial capping is sometimes better option.
A very hard blow can move all the way to tearing of CNS tissue, typically accompanied by bleeding. These are very dangerous injuries, often accompanied with bone fractures.
Blood is not good for CNS material. Besides the rise in pressure withing the confines of the skull, blood contact itself appears to cause damage to neurons.
The typical cause of death from intra cranial pressure is the pushing of the brain stem down through the base of the skull (the hole where the spinal cord enters the skull).
The opening is relatively small, and as pressure in the skull rises the brain is pushed down towards the opening. The pressure from the skull on the stem causes nerve conduction problems for the CNS and muscle control required for respiration is impaired.
Keeping the chin down can help prevent an opponent from gaining a hold and snapping the skull backwards, with the resulting fore and aft rebound of the brain itself.
hey sawyer, are you a good kicker ?
its just that, no disrespect mate, most people ain't. i was't to bad at kicking, i won the british and commonwealth pro kickboxing titles. punching and grappling are the street-smart stuff, kickers just don't get the time usually. the bigest problem is balance. no matter who you are, bruce lee and van dam included, if you take one foot off the floor you've lost 50% of ya balance, add to that most street brawls turn to fast, rushing aggresive charges and the fact that a slow punch is still faster than a quick kick. i used to have a video that was 3 hours long of real fights from CCTV, camcorders, police cars, news and everywhere. the kickers all came unstuck.
its just that, no disrespect mate, most people ain't. i was't to bad at kicking, i won the british and commonwealth pro kickboxing titles. punching and grappling are the street-smart stuff, kickers just don't get the time usually. the bigest problem is balance. no matter who you are, bruce lee and van dam included, if you take one foot off the floor you've lost 50% of ya balance, add to that most street brawls turn to fast, rushing aggresive charges and the fact that a slow punch is still faster than a quick kick. i used to have a video that was 3 hours long of real fights from CCTV, camcorders, police cars, news and everywhere. the kickers all came unstuck.
I'm a pretty good kicker, (I'm also Asian, btw, perhaps kicking is more natural to me, I've noticed most people of other races tend to want to fight mostly with their hands, and are unwilling/unable to fight with kicks, that is where the kicker has an advantage. The classic low, non telegraphic Jeet Kune Do sidekick to the knee works almost perfectly 99% of the time, it's pretty humorous even when sparring in a friendly way with people, they simply can't get close enough to do anything and are clumsily trying not to fall down while awkwardly backing away, in a real fight, the blow would be quite devastating to the knee.
I don't believe in getting entangled with an assailant in the first place that I'm grappling with him on the ground, a real streetfight is not a MMA match, it's all about destroying the knees, then either running or stomping him into unconciousness, imho.
I don't believe in getting entangled with an assailant in the first place that I'm grappling with him on the ground, a real streetfight is not a MMA match, it's all about destroying the knees, then either running or stomping him into unconciousness, imho.
hi sawyer
just wondering mate, have you pulled off a fight ending kick in the street ? it ain't easy, bangin' someone out with ya fists works loads better. for kicks to be effective you need space, time and terain on ya side - thats pretty much everthing ya don't get - theres no substitute for a good old 123, and if that don't work you are gonna be rollin round so it pays to know some grapplin. the only kick i'd wanna show anyone for street is the 'pendulem' kick, short-low-your-instep-to his kneecap (then stamp down shin,and take control) pulled that off a few times, but it ain't no man stopper, just a fight winner, if ya catch my drift. when in doubt..... CLOUT!!!!! be first, be fast, be gone.
just wondering mate, have you pulled off a fight ending kick in the street ? it ain't easy, bangin' someone out with ya fists works loads better. for kicks to be effective you need space, time and terain on ya side - thats pretty much everthing ya don't get - theres no substitute for a good old 123, and if that don't work you are gonna be rollin round so it pays to know some grapplin. the only kick i'd wanna show anyone for street is the 'pendulem' kick, short-low-your-instep-to his kneecap (then stamp down shin,and take control) pulled that off a few times, but it ain't no man stopper, just a fight winner, if ya catch my drift. when in doubt..... CLOUT!!!!! be first, be fast, be gone.
Cousin Mike
Member
Everyone should know at least something about how to defend themselves with their hands. I know some disagree, but there are some situations where your fists, or even just the willingness to use them - might serve you a lot better than a gun. Chrisyuk, and a few others for example, definitely know what I mean by that.
PS - as someone who has spent most of his life in martial arts and boxing, it's amazing some of the stuff being touted here as viable self-defense tactics by some of the other folks. I think most of us who have been trained to fight would agree that if you absolutely have to fight someone...
...keep your feet on the damned ground.
If you simply MUST show off in the middle of a fight, and throw a kick at a conscious, functioning person, it had better be placed below the knee - any higher and you're taking a serious chance at giving that leg over to your opponent. Throw a kick @ someone who knows what he's doing (or simply expecting it), and that could be the last kick you ever throw.
PS - as someone who has spent most of his life in martial arts and boxing, it's amazing some of the stuff being touted here as viable self-defense tactics by some of the other folks. I think most of us who have been trained to fight would agree that if you absolutely have to fight someone...
...keep your feet on the damned ground.
If you simply MUST show off in the middle of a fight, and throw a kick at a conscious, functioning person, it had better be placed below the knee - any higher and you're taking a serious chance at giving that leg over to your opponent. Throw a kick @ someone who knows what he's doing (or simply expecting it), and that could be the last kick you ever throw.
WolfMansDad
Member
+1 Cousin Mike, and everyone ought to know something about punching and grappling both. Each has its own application. I've used jiu-jitsu many times to subdue unruly drunks, when escalation to punching would have made me the bad guy.
Only date long-legged women!
spot on cousin mike.....
...... and thank you, i've done security all my life on this little island, across the pond, and apparently we brits are known world wide as the most ready to fight for nothing idiots on the planet, my own travels have confirmed it ! luckly, i've never really come unstuck, thank the lord, and the wife says i'm a trouble magnet. top tip..... focus on the jaw line and keep lookin at it until you've banged him over, your fists will land where your eyes are lookin, almost all off the time and the jaw is the spot, temples are ok but can really hurt ya hands.......
...... and thank you, i've done security all my life on this little island, across the pond, and apparently we brits are known world wide as the most ready to fight for nothing idiots on the planet, my own travels have confirmed it ! luckly, i've never really come unstuck, thank the lord, and the wife says i'm a trouble magnet. top tip..... focus on the jaw line and keep lookin at it until you've banged him over, your fists will land where your eyes are lookin, almost all off the time and the jaw is the spot, temples are ok but can really hurt ya hands.......
well, apparently what I said is true, most of the respondents are probably white, and espouse punching and grappling, and you know what, that may indeed be the best solution for these particular, and most people-most people are extremely awkward when it comes to kicking. However the facts about kicking are thus:
a kick is the hardest blow the human body can deliver.
It can be delivered from farther out, and can stop an assailant's attack, and at the very least will obviously ruin his momentum and plan of attack, he can't do s..t if he's stumbling backwards trying to avoid the kicks, or even more stupidly if he's trying to "absorb" them.
However, since most people are unable to fight well with kicks, they'll have to duke it out. Me, I'd take out their knees every time with a kick.
a kick is the hardest blow the human body can deliver.
It can be delivered from farther out, and can stop an assailant's attack, and at the very least will obviously ruin his momentum and plan of attack, he can't do s..t if he's stumbling backwards trying to avoid the kicks, or even more stupidly if he's trying to "absorb" them.
However, since most people are unable to fight well with kicks, they'll have to duke it out. Me, I'd take out their knees every time with a kick.
question for ya mate...
how many times has a kick come to finish conclusivly a street fight you've had ? in 20 years of fighting on a weekly basis i can't think of one, and as i said earlier, i can definatly kick. a puncher will beat a kicker 99% of the time.... and all you guys reading this out there, do you agree with me or sawyer ?
how many times has a kick come to finish conclusivly a street fight you've had ? in 20 years of fighting on a weekly basis i can't think of one, and as i said earlier, i can definatly kick. a puncher will beat a kicker 99% of the time.... and all you guys reading this out there, do you agree with me or sawyer ?
I've done it enough times that it's my preferred method of attack. I am talking about self defense, it sounds like you work security and/or a bouncer type job, obviously you don't want to severely and permanently maim the drunken people you run into, so punching and grappling with them is a better idea.
however, I do believe mostly kicking (with much training of course) is the better choice for children and women, they may still lose the fight, but it's a much better choice than any punching and grappling techniques- teaching and advising them about punching assailants and rolling around with them on the ground is repulsive, quite frankly (and probably useless, given their lack of overall strength)- kicking them in the knees, shins, stomping the instep, etc. then screaming and running is the best option.
however, I do believe mostly kicking (with much training of course) is the better choice for children and women, they may still lose the fight, but it's a much better choice than any punching and grappling techniques- teaching and advising them about punching assailants and rolling around with them on the ground is repulsive, quite frankly (and probably useless, given their lack of overall strength)- kicking them in the knees, shins, stomping the instep, etc. then screaming and running is the best option.
rantingredneck
Member
I've gotta go with Chris on this one. Sawyer, you may be as good at kicking as you say you are. I don't know you and therefore cannot pass judgement on that. The problem I see with your statements here is that they make some assumptions about your theoretical opponent that may or may not be true. Some people you can get away with lifting your leg against. Some you can't. Not knowing this about your attacker at the moment the fight commences would indicate a need to keep both feet planted firmly on the ground IMHO.
I think you guys should just try it out in a friendly way with some sparring partners-don't tell them where you are aiming, and obviously don't kick them in the knee for real- just have them try to replicate a typical bar type confrontation-you'll find that it's easy to fend them off with low knee and shin kicks from the classic JKD on guard postion, they won't be able to close in on you.
Now in a serious self defense situation, fake a punch to the opponent's eyes, his hands will come up instinctively and that's when you destroy the knee closest to you with a low JKD side kick, (it's such a low kick a person usually won't lose his balance unless he's extremely uncoordinated and clumsy.) He'll collapse like a house of cards.
Now in a serious self defense situation, fake a punch to the opponent's eyes, his hands will come up instinctively and that's when you destroy the knee closest to you with a low JKD side kick, (it's such a low kick a person usually won't lose his balance unless he's extremely uncoordinated and clumsy.) He'll collapse like a house of cards.
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