Well, I accept that but I'd still like to hear how you will attack the elbow? What did you do exactly? If shooting at anything aside from COM, I'd think it'd be more effective to shoot at the hip than the knee. There's the common iliac arteries, lateral femoral, femoral nerves etc in the region in addition to the joint itself.
Evolution of Combative Anatomy
- Thread starter mercop
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mercop
Member.
I am not talking about shooting. I am talking about default targeting with and defending against open hand, stick and edged weapons. The interchangeability between these three things and allowing the transition to a firearm. During a shooting you will shoot at COM or the perceived threat.
mercop
Member.
Usually by moving to the outside controlling the wrist with with my right hand, then you have the option of smashing with your palm, elbow or pushing with your body. This not only keeps you to the outside but puts you to the side of the knee as you continue to move to the rear of your attacker.
We are going to try to shoot some video today and get it up.
We are going to try to shoot some video today and get it up.
WardenWolf
member
I prefer to be inside simply because it affords better striking potential. The elbow is a devastating weapon in close quarters, and on the inside there is virtually no defense against it. You can easily stun an opponent by rapid elbow strikes to the face and head. He also has a very hard time striking back, as you are turned sideways and basically have your shoulder directly against his chest. He doesn't have room to build up rotational energy.
The problem with being on the outside is the main thing you will probably want to do is break the opponent's arm by locking the elbow and snapping it. This requires much greater precision and strength than elbow strikes from the inside, though. It has to be done just right. It also places you at an angle where it is difficult to effectively attack the opponent's head, as you are outside his shoulders. A more clever opponent can also mess this strategy up by moving towards you instead of pulling away, thus causing his elbow to bend and denying you a firm hold.
Bottom line: If you land an elbow strike on your opponent's head or face, he is going to be VERY fuzzy-headed regardless of what other damage it does to him. He is not going to be able to think and react quickly for the next several seconds, seconds you can use to disarm him. Strikes to the inside of an opponent's wrist will also weaken his grip on whatever weapon he is holding. If administered while he is still addled from blunt-force strikes to the head, you will almost certainly gain control of the weapon. And the beauty of it: you can always administer more blows until you DO gain control of the weapon.
I've been in fights. None over control of a weapon, but I know how people react when they get hit, and I know how balance and leverage work. Inside is far better from a layman's perspective. From a martial arts perspective, it probably won't matter. But from a layman's perspective where you don't have the advantage of special techniques and moves, inside is a far better choice.
The problem with being on the outside is the main thing you will probably want to do is break the opponent's arm by locking the elbow and snapping it. This requires much greater precision and strength than elbow strikes from the inside, though. It has to be done just right. It also places you at an angle where it is difficult to effectively attack the opponent's head, as you are outside his shoulders. A more clever opponent can also mess this strategy up by moving towards you instead of pulling away, thus causing his elbow to bend and denying you a firm hold.
Bottom line: If you land an elbow strike on your opponent's head or face, he is going to be VERY fuzzy-headed regardless of what other damage it does to him. He is not going to be able to think and react quickly for the next several seconds, seconds you can use to disarm him. Strikes to the inside of an opponent's wrist will also weaken his grip on whatever weapon he is holding. If administered while he is still addled from blunt-force strikes to the head, you will almost certainly gain control of the weapon. And the beauty of it: you can always administer more blows until you DO gain control of the weapon.
I've been in fights. None over control of a weapon, but I know how people react when they get hit, and I know how balance and leverage work. Inside is far better from a layman's perspective. From a martial arts perspective, it probably won't matter. But from a layman's perspective where you don't have the advantage of special techniques and moves, inside is a far better choice.
mercop
Member.
I agree you need to know how to fight from the inside since you usually start off there.
IMHO the hardest thing to defend against is an edged weapon. My basic rules for edged weapons defense are these-
Get off the center line
Try not to get cut
Get cut as little as possible
The easiest way to get off the center line is to move to the outside. If attacked with an edged weapon you need to block/evade the initial attack before your launch your own attack or worry about subsequent attacks. I am not comfortable utilizing head shots while defending against the knife without controlling the weapon first or at the same time.
IMHO the hardest thing to defend against is an edged weapon. My basic rules for edged weapons defense are these-
Get off the center line
Try not to get cut
Get cut as little as possible
The easiest way to get off the center line is to move to the outside. If attacked with an edged weapon you need to block/evade the initial attack before your launch your own attack or worry about subsequent attacks. I am not comfortable utilizing head shots while defending against the knife without controlling the weapon first or at the same time.
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Big + 1 to that. Against a knife the outside is the place to be. Hopefully giving you a shot at a low kick/stomp to the knee,which will then give you many options (like run)
My biggest fear is being caught on the inside against a unseen knife.
mercop
Member.
Train for the blade and it is the hand or an impact weapon you will be OK. Not the other way around.
I really do not think palm strikes will work well, that the elbow is too robust for this to work, and wouldn't predict any sort of debilitating injury from what you have described but I wish you luck on it anyways and would be interested in watching your shoot. Perhaps try some full on sparring? If you want some anatomical advice, the ulna is what hinges with the humerus, and its located on the inside of the forearm, opposite side from the thumb. It's held in place with some strong fibrous connective tissue though.
autospike
Member
A kick or strike to the side of the knee can be bad because that knee is supporting weight. I don't get how you're going to do *damage* to an elbow like that in an alive situation. Obviously an arm bar is another matter. Watch a UFC fight and see how many elbows strikes are thrown and how many punches and kicks to the body are blocked by an elbow.
There's one way to find out and that is to get a cup and a mouthpiece and have someone give you some real pressure (as opposed to someone that will give up on the first ouchie). Go to the nearest MMA gym and I'm sure someone will step up and let you try palm striking their elbow whilst they are attacking you.
Personally, I think Red Zone is the best thing going for knife defense right now.
There's one way to find out and that is to get a cup and a mouthpiece and have someone give you some real pressure (as opposed to someone that will give up on the first ouchie). Go to the nearest MMA gym and I'm sure someone will step up and let you try palm striking their elbow whilst they are attacking you.
Personally, I think Red Zone is the best thing going for knife defense right now.
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mercop
Member.
What else have you been exposed to besides Red Zone?
By highlighting "real" you seem to suggest that I don't train like a big boy. Was that your intent? I am no stranger to hard training or gyms. What is the purpose of your attached thumbnail of an MMA fight in a cage in a post where we are obviously speaking about surviving on the street, not the canvas.
By highlighting "real" you seem to suggest that I don't train like a big boy. Was that your intent? I am no stranger to hard training or gyms. What is the purpose of your attached thumbnail of an MMA fight in a cage in a post where we are obviously speaking about surviving on the street, not the canvas.
autospike
Member
Nope, not saying you're not training hard. I don't know you. If I read you correctly, the example you gave was that you showed it to a friend and it hurt. From what you wrote, I didn't get the idea that you had really pressure tested it. I thought you mentioned that it would even be tough to actually pull off training this on a partner without serious injury. Have you? If not, I really do believe that somebody will let you try. And you can probably find "that guy" at a local MMA gym.
The purpose of the pic was to show that an elbow is not a fragile piece of anatomy. It is used to block and strike all the time (as I had mentioned before).
If you've got a technique that is good enough to work on the deadly streets, shouldn't it also work on canvas? How can those guys absorb a strike to the elbow and strike with an elbow and not always be put out of commission?
I have been exposed to various knife defenses, "If he does this, you do that" and I was disappointed. I've also been "mugged" by a lot of training partners and gotten "stabbed" a lot. It seems that the best way to keep from getting perforated is to control that knife arm very quickly. Never really trained *a system* except for Red Zone. Have you ever trained Red Zone? If so, what were your thoughts? What is it missing? What could be better?
The purpose of the pic was to show that an elbow is not a fragile piece of anatomy. It is used to block and strike all the time (as I had mentioned before).
If you've got a technique that is good enough to work on the deadly streets, shouldn't it also work on canvas? How can those guys absorb a strike to the elbow and strike with an elbow and not always be put out of commission?
I have been exposed to various knife defenses, "If he does this, you do that" and I was disappointed. I've also been "mugged" by a lot of training partners and gotten "stabbed" a lot. It seems that the best way to keep from getting perforated is to control that knife arm very quickly. Never really trained *a system* except for Red Zone. Have you ever trained Red Zone? If so, what were your thoughts? What is it missing? What could be better?
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Interesting conversation. But I have to agree with Auto about delivery systems and their use in as resistive an environment as you can get to determine the efficacy of your techniques. And yeah, have trained a little in some stuff, but not comabitives and not too much into MMA but have trained some BJJ( I am old and beat up with a herniated disc from too many years of being dumped on the mat and have had knee surgery for a popped ACL and broken miniscus and a few other injuries for a quarter century's worth of playing captain ninja, fun though it was). So now I train for what I like and am interested in and think it has some merit for me personally, though that merit is not wholely involved in utility. It's what I like. I think that training helps, but I have come to the conclusion that being aware and not hanging out with stupid people in stupid places will reap much better rewards than most martial arts practice, if you just want to limit your potential for receiving harm.
I have known two people stabbed in real fights, I have also know two people mugged by multiple assailants, one person being my brother. I have also known a former co-worker's friend shot and killed by gangsters who killed him when he opened the door. They had the wrong address and were looking to give some reprisal pain to some other gangster....if but for the wrong address.
The first stabbing, ice pick went through the webbing of his protecting hand into the abdomen, but not so deep as to cause permanent harm. The other was when the guy took mount in a street altercation and the grounded guy's buddy stabbed the person I know in the back. That person almost died. In both the stabbing incidents, it was ego driven that went from shouting and punching to brass tacks in a hurry. If people knew the consequences of violence and are more able to control their emotions better, then they could walk away from things like this without thinking that it's just a small tussle to prove one's manliness.
As for the muggings, both had multiple assailants setting up the intended victim who didn't suspect what was happening until too late.
So the questions that come from this is that in a real defensive situation, awareness first and acknowleding that raised hair feeling that says, "Uh uh."
Two, don't let your ego and anger get away from you. Martial arts in general, despite some practice to the contrary in resistive environments can usually only accomodate one-on-one scenarios with a wider range of techniques and allowance for movement in ranges (being taken down for ground and pound). When multiple attacker practice is done, it can't be done to the same level as one-on-one since being hurt is not the objective and much more control has to be levied in that training environment for protection of the people.
When you are being set up for real, there will be three reasons that allow the attacker(s) to try to get his way. And those are either access to arms that makes him more dandgerous than flying solo without them; multiple attackers; or a combination of the two. In these cases, H-2-H martial arts are probably not going to help you, regardless of what you know and would probably be used as a last recourse for survivability of the encounter.
If it goes to unarmed against armed, you've already slid down a long chasm wall. Which brings a couple of things to the forefront. One, if you don't have your gun/knife/stick out when the bad guy(s) has his aimed at you head, you're not going to bring it out now. Essentially you are relegated to a responsive act and trying to get a four inch folder out of your pocket after the fact may be much harder than one supposes. In fear of your life it is controlling the bad guy's weapon and either closing the distance for body control or creating distance from the threat. If, as in the case of my friend who got stabbed while tied up with the the downed opponent, multiple attackers with weapons are involved it's gonna mean a steep hill to climb out from under and no amount of martial arts will help in that case.
I have known two people stabbed in real fights, I have also know two people mugged by multiple assailants, one person being my brother. I have also known a former co-worker's friend shot and killed by gangsters who killed him when he opened the door. They had the wrong address and were looking to give some reprisal pain to some other gangster....if but for the wrong address.
The first stabbing, ice pick went through the webbing of his protecting hand into the abdomen, but not so deep as to cause permanent harm. The other was when the guy took mount in a street altercation and the grounded guy's buddy stabbed the person I know in the back. That person almost died. In both the stabbing incidents, it was ego driven that went from shouting and punching to brass tacks in a hurry. If people knew the consequences of violence and are more able to control their emotions better, then they could walk away from things like this without thinking that it's just a small tussle to prove one's manliness.
As for the muggings, both had multiple assailants setting up the intended victim who didn't suspect what was happening until too late.
So the questions that come from this is that in a real defensive situation, awareness first and acknowleding that raised hair feeling that says, "Uh uh."
Two, don't let your ego and anger get away from you. Martial arts in general, despite some practice to the contrary in resistive environments can usually only accomodate one-on-one scenarios with a wider range of techniques and allowance for movement in ranges (being taken down for ground and pound). When multiple attacker practice is done, it can't be done to the same level as one-on-one since being hurt is not the objective and much more control has to be levied in that training environment for protection of the people.
When you are being set up for real, there will be three reasons that allow the attacker(s) to try to get his way. And those are either access to arms that makes him more dandgerous than flying solo without them; multiple attackers; or a combination of the two. In these cases, H-2-H martial arts are probably not going to help you, regardless of what you know and would probably be used as a last recourse for survivability of the encounter.
If it goes to unarmed against armed, you've already slid down a long chasm wall. Which brings a couple of things to the forefront. One, if you don't have your gun/knife/stick out when the bad guy(s) has his aimed at you head, you're not going to bring it out now. Essentially you are relegated to a responsive act and trying to get a four inch folder out of your pocket after the fact may be much harder than one supposes. In fear of your life it is controlling the bad guy's weapon and either closing the distance for body control or creating distance from the threat. If, as in the case of my friend who got stabbed while tied up with the the downed opponent, multiple attackers with weapons are involved it's gonna mean a steep hill to climb out from under and no amount of martial arts will help in that case.
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mercop
Member.
auto spike, the gentleman I was using to shoot the video was my best friend and training partner is is also and air marshal. When you are to the outside and the arm is outstretched by using your other hand and you palm smash the area of the insertion point of the tricep just above the elbow even lightly it hurts, and he reminded me that it did.
My core MA background is in traditional Yoshin Ryu Ju Jitsu which as I am sure you know pretty much ends everything with joint destruction and chokes. Over the years we have found that the #1 accidental injury is the hyper extension of the elbow.
What I teach for open hand defense against edged weapons is based on my experience in regards to the positions you normally end up when locking horns with a guy and exploring effective options from there.
I have not trained in the Red Zone and don't know if it has any holes or is missing anything at all. What I do know is that the martial arts I have been exposed too too often focus on defending against a knife you can see and the trainers they use are about 2-3 times the size of what my research tells me you are likely to face.
And in the future can you take it easier on me, I have delicate elbows
Thanks for continuing the conversation.
My core MA background is in traditional Yoshin Ryu Ju Jitsu which as I am sure you know pretty much ends everything with joint destruction and chokes. Over the years we have found that the #1 accidental injury is the hyper extension of the elbow.
What I teach for open hand defense against edged weapons is based on my experience in regards to the positions you normally end up when locking horns with a guy and exploring effective options from there.
I have not trained in the Red Zone and don't know if it has any holes or is missing anything at all. What I do know is that the martial arts I have been exposed too too often focus on defending against a knife you can see and the trainers they use are about 2-3 times the size of what my research tells me you are likely to face.
And in the future can you take it easier on me, I have delicate elbows
Thanks for continuing the conversation.
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trackaddict88
Member
He's right, it DOES hurt. Also, it's a fairly easy move. Not stength but rather timing and technique. As my Sensei said "accuracy, speed, and power - in that order"
It's important to make a distinction in violence between "hurt" and "injury." "Hurt" can be toughed out and worked through (or not even felt due to drugs or adrenaline). "Injury" in the sense that something is broken and doesn't function anymore is objective. If the connective tissue in the elbow is torn so than the forearm and hand below no longer function...who cares if it "hurts?"
If the connective tissue isn't torn and the elbow still functions, you haven't accomplished anything you could bet your life on.
Training with "aliveness" or resistance ala MMA has some great advantages (as discussed here and elsewhere) but some huge disadvantages as well. If I'm training to break things inside of people...how do I train that full speed against a resisting opponent? Either I fail and prove that what I'm doing sucks...or I succeed and my training partner goes to the hospital and I go to jail.
Criminals don't train (much, some do a little in prison)...they just injure people anyway they can. They don't "prove" it in MMA gyms...they prove it in the news headlines. Want to survive a violent conflict? Do what criminals do, injure them 1st.
What if they jump you and injure you 1st? Well, either they keep going and kill you...or you have a moment where you can move and function and you injure them and keep going until they are done.
As far as anatomy is concerned, the annals of sports medicine are filled with places athletes commonly get injured by a body colliding with them or them colliding with the planet. All these areas of the body are what is vulnerable to you injuring on purpose in a violent situation.
Knee, ankle, groin, eye, neck, clavicle, spleen, kidney, liver, jaw, throat, brain (via concussion), etc...(elbow too)
If the connective tissue isn't torn and the elbow still functions, you haven't accomplished anything you could bet your life on.
Training with "aliveness" or resistance ala MMA has some great advantages (as discussed here and elsewhere) but some huge disadvantages as well. If I'm training to break things inside of people...how do I train that full speed against a resisting opponent? Either I fail and prove that what I'm doing sucks...or I succeed and my training partner goes to the hospital and I go to jail.
Criminals don't train (much, some do a little in prison)...they just injure people anyway they can. They don't "prove" it in MMA gyms...they prove it in the news headlines. Want to survive a violent conflict? Do what criminals do, injure them 1st.
What if they jump you and injure you 1st? Well, either they keep going and kill you...or you have a moment where you can move and function and you injure them and keep going until they are done.
As far as anatomy is concerned, the annals of sports medicine are filled with places athletes commonly get injured by a body colliding with them or them colliding with the planet. All these areas of the body are what is vulnerable to you injuring on purpose in a violent situation.
Knee, ankle, groin, eye, neck, clavicle, spleen, kidney, liver, jaw, throat, brain (via concussion), etc...(elbow too
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