Ancient IMR-3031 safe to use?

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Hey guys, my grandfather just sold me his prehistoric RCBS reloading gear. He can't shoot or reload anymore because of a familial tremor (bless his heart). Included in this deal was two pounds of IMR-3031 powder. In a Nosler reloading guide, it says to take deteriorated powder to the local police to dispose of it. What i'm wondering is if this powder is too old and unsafe to use anymore.

One of the tins says that it was purchased at Ace Hardware for $3.15, I'm guessing its from the 70's.

IMG_0059.jpg
 
If it looks, pours, and smells like new, or nearly so, it's fine.

If discolored, lumpy, and/or smells a lot different, burn it or use it for fertilizer.
 
If its in the original container, been kept airtight, no rust on the can and doesn't smell acidic it probably is still good. There is no reason why it couldn't be.

The easiest way to dispose of powder is sprinkle it on your grass. The nitrogen makes it great fertilizer.
 
First...the can looks to be in very good condition. So, open it and smell the powder. If it has "gone bad" it will often smell bad. I use some IMR4064 in my .30-30 that I picked up with used RCBS equipment in '73

If you are doubtful...load two or three and go shoot them. Powder, if kept in conditions that make you comfortable,can have a very long shelf life.

We should a shoot bit more. That way it would never get a chance to get very old!:D

Lets see...two pounds is about $50 around here. You have to decide about useing it.

A month ago I found a can that felt wet on the outer surface. When I checked inside it didn't look good...so I burned it. It burned with a white hot flame about 24 inches high. I just didn't trust puting it through my gun.

Mark
 
^^ right on. I still use powder from the 60's and it's good. All depends on how it was stored and if it passes the smell test. ALso look for rust or red discoloration inside the metal cans. That's another sure sign of deterioration.

By the way, I don't think my local police would have a clue about what to do with old powder. They are there to enforce laws, not dispose of old powder. :eek: If it's no good, just pour it on your flowers. High nitrogen and makes great fertilizer.
 
If there is no reason to believe its bad, load one round and see how it shoots.
 
Smell test? Oh dear, this is actually the first reloading I've ever done.

The powder smells a bit like oil based paints I've used for model aircraft in times past (waaay times past).

The cans were sealed and were kept in the bottom drawer of a cabinet in the upstairs closet we use for guns. It doesn't get that hot or humid here (southwestern Wyoming) so I don't imagine that it's been damaged at all by moisture.

All the grains seem to be intact, in that they're all the small cylinder shaped grains.

Also, would this be a good powder to use in a 308. Win? The Nosler guide lists it as a load, so I imagine that it would be OK.
 
I have used very old 3031 that was stored in a paper bag inside of a sealed mason jar. I got it from a very old man who bought it surplus in the early 1960's(?). It worked well enough in .308 Winchester with 150 grain bullets.
 
Your original post brings up another curiosity: why would a grandfather not be happy to give his reloading gear to a decent grandson? I would be thrilled to have future grandchildren to leave such important items to. I wish your grandfather improved health, and hope that the two of you can enjoy reloading together. It would be great to have such a mentor.
 
Old powder is powder ya don't have to buy--again

Hello the camp! As an inveterate wheeler-dealer, I have picked up odds and ends of powder in deals back to mid-60s. One such, '68 I believe, got me a 5-digit Super Blackhawk and a partial can of red dot. In late 90s, I wanted some .45acp loads; out came the reddot---and some primers from the same deal, cci's. I loaded up the Dillon measure and commenced. After about 200 rd, I was down to the short hairs; I started weighing each charge. After 30-40 charges, I got one quite short of the 5 gr I was throwing. First, all those rounds went off. Second, the Dillon powder measure was like Maxwell House--good to the last drop--and all those throws varied no more than the .1 gr as advertised. If ya got it, load it. See ya round the campfire. mm
 
why would a grandfather not be happy to give his reloading gear to a decent grandson?

don't know the details here, but sometimes in life folks are simply too proud to admit things to themselves. It might have been a bargain struck up by the grandson, so as not to bring up issues that the grandfather might dwell on. Not knowing the circumstances, the deal might have only been pennies on the dollars worth of the equipment. Simply a gesture of love, and respect, over a payment of goods.

As to the powder, yep it should have that thinner smell to it, the grains should roll out of the can like small roller bearings. If all is good with that, I would use it in a heartbeat. If it's the same lot number or close to it even better.

Load up 5-10 rounds from each can so you can compare it to each other if not. By using a id level load you should be able to find a load that will shoot decent with said weight in grains from either can.

That said, I wouldn't go to the extreme measure of working up a top end load, just something that might be suitable for paper punching, and possibly light hunting rounds. Once you burn through it, the newer stuff might be a little faster or slower simply due to lot differences, and your going to have to adjust your load a little.

I've used 3031 in several calibers over the years with results between OK and awesome. In fact one of the most accurate loads I ever developed for my .270 used 46.5grs, under the Nosler 130gr BT. This was a load I worked up for my mom just before she quite hunting in her late 60's, and one with which she got her buck, from Pop's stand, using his rifle, while he stayed at the house. Long story but great finish.
 
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The deal between grandfather and grandson is non of our business. The grand dad (or grand son) may have a very good reason to sell rather than give.
don't know the details here, but sometimes in life folks are simply too proud to admit things to themselves. It might have been a bargain struck up by the grandson, so as not to bring up issues that the grandfather might dwell on. Not knowing the circumstances, the deal might have only been pennies on the dollars worth of the equipment. Simply a gesture of love, and respect, over a payment of goods.
Exactly.

As others have posted, if it looks OK and smells OK, it is OK. I have a can of 3031 that looks just like that one. It is fine. I had some much newer powder go bad on me. Go figure. :)
 
Wow, thanks for all the help. I'll probably be posting on this forum many more times with questions about reloading.

For those wondering:
I'm staying at my grandparents house this summer while working concrete for the family business. My grandparents even requested that I not pay any room and board, even though I offered. So, I thought it would be best to buy the gear, rather than just ask for it after all they've done for me this summer.
 
I'm in the process of using up some powder from the '70s that I bought at a good price several years back. Waste not, want not.
 
The powder smells a bit like oil based paints I've used for model aircraft in times past

OK. Sounds good to me.
You are smelling the solvents alcohol, acetone, ether used in powder manufacture. Deteriorated powder would have an acidic smell, maybe even visible red nitric fumes; the can would be rusted inside and part of the powder going to dust.

People are shooting surplus ammunition older than this with no worry about the powder.
 
I have some cans of propellant from I think the 40's according to the cans. Hi-Vel#2 for one and it is still as good as ever in the 300 Savage.:D I will be sad when I run out.
When the local PD/FD gets some propellant turned in I usually am the one that gets a call to dispose of it safely.
 
Also, would this be a good powder to use in a 308. Win? The Nosler guide lists it as a load, so I imagine that it would be OK.
While not a "classic powder" for loading the 308 I see no reason why you can't use it. It's a little on the faster side of powders usually used to load the 308 but it will be fine. The Hodgdon Load Data Site provides load data for bullets ranging from 110gr to 200gr in the 308 for IMR3031. Most of the Max load data shows a compressed load probably because it's a faster powder than usually used in the 308 like I mentioned above.
 
A couple of years ago a friend needed some cash and sold me his Tikka in .308wcf.

The only powder I could get to shoot decently was IMR3031. It's one of my favorite powders in the .30/30 and .45/70.

If it smells like finger nail polish remover (acetone) and or starting fluid (ether) it'll be good.

If it smells like vinegar (acetic acid) or old asprin then it's bad. If bad, throw it on the lawn or the azalea's.
 
Good for your grandpa on selling it to you, and good for you on being adult enough to buy it. I always found that when I worked for something and paid for it, I treasured it more. If it was a gift, it would be wrapped under a tree. Shoot that powder up and just for giggle invite your Grandpa down to the reloading room and maybe you will learn a thing or two. Not to mention some great old stories that don't get told around the dinner table.
 
Dump the whole can in to a cardboard box make sure you tape the corners of the box first. If it looks clean its OK if it has rusty looking dust its bad.
 
Success!

Looks like the powder is performing beautifully (and for my first load too)!

Here's my setup:

Brass: Winchester "Super Speed" (probably older than the powder, looks like new)
Primer: CCI Large Rifle
Powder: 41 grains of IMR-3031
Bullet: Nosler Ballistic Tip, 150gr. (.308")
Rifle: Remington 700 SPS w/ Sightron 6x32


Should'a seen the smile on my grandpa's face when he saw this group. Stuff like this at 100 yards was unheard of back in his day (as said by him).

Range Conditions: 69 degrees F w/ 10-20mph NNE crosswind.
IMG_0085.jpg
 
It good you were able to get that kind of accuracy the first time out. It's even better you put a smile on your Grandfather's face! Well done on both...
 
Whether powder is good is not easily answered unless the powder has gross indications of going bad.

The gross indications are the bitter smell due to NOx, red powder granules, fuming gas emissions, others have said “red gas”. By the time you see this the powder went bad a long time before.

Half of all the surplus IMR 4895 I purchased went bad.

The first 16 lbs, I used up eight pounds quickly. For whatever reason, I pulled the bullets on some of that stuff and found green corrosion on the bases of the bullets.

Similar to these pull down bullets from old US ammunition. Not the horrible one, but the small green spots.

DSCN1108CorrodedBullets.jpg

DSCN1115corrodedbullets.jpg

I don't remember what US ammunition these came off, I pulled them decades ago, might have been WWII ammunition that came back from China.

The last eight pounds, it sat around. When I opened the bottle top, it smelled bitter. Red dust flew around.

I gave it to a machine gunner guy. He put it in the laundry room. Passing by the laundry room he tossed soiled shorts at the hamper, but missed. The short ended up on top of the powder bottle. Overnight, acid gas from the bottle ate holes in the shorts!! :what: This freaked my friend and he poured the stuff out over his lawn.

Since then I have had more surplus 4895 powder from a different vendor go bad in the case. Green corrosion on the bottom of the bullets and cracked case necks.

This powder never smelt bitter at all. I shot this powder in highpower matches and it shot exceptionally well, but case necks cracked after firing. I also received “funny” retorts and the occasional sticky extraction. The longer the ammunition sat around the more cases necks would split when fired. In time virtually all of the remaining 700 loaded cases experienced cracked case necks without the stresses of firing.

From what I had read on the internet, which is a repeat of what is said in gun magazines, powder has an “indefinite” shelf life. Remember reading statements to the effect that powder lost energy as it got old, making it essentially benign.

Then I ran into an Insensitive Munitions expert. This IM expert explained that powder deteriorates from the day it leaves the factory.

Nitrocellulose decomposes through the reduction-oxidation process. Called Redox. The molecular stability of the functional groups on the organic chain determine the life time of the nitrocellulose molecule. All ionic compounds, water is the main offender because it is always in air, react with those bonds and accelerates the deterioration of the powder.

The bottom line is that nitrocellulose is a high energy molecule that wants to become a low energy molecule.

Heat accelerates the deterioration/decomposition of powder and the rate is directly proportional to the Arrhenius equation. If you read in the Insensitive munitions literature, you will see that they use high temperature to accelerate aging of smokeless propellants.

Double based powders have a reduced lifetime compared with single base. Double based powders have nitroglycerin (NG) in the grain. Nitroglycerine remains a liquid and it migrates within the grain to react with the NO bonds on the nitrocellulose, increasing the rate of reduction-oxidation reaction. All ionic compounds react with those bonds and accelerate the deterioration of the powder. Rust is bad as ferric oxide is ionic. Water is a main offender because it is always in air.

Because water reacts in a negative way with smokeless propellants, quality ammunition is manufactured in humidity controlled environments. Between 40% and 20% humidity. They don't go lower due to electro static discharge concerns.

The best storage condition for powders is arctic. Cold and dry.

Due to the migration of NG within double based powders, the surface of the grain will become rich in NG even though the total energy content of the propellant has decreased. This will cause changes in the burn rate, and can cause pressures to spike. The surface of nitrocellulose powders also change as the powder deteriorates, and it changes unevenly. This creates conditions for erratic burn rates. Burn rate instability is undesirable and can cause explosive conditions in firearms. In retrospect, this explains the “funny” retorts I experienced and the sticking cases. It is an extremely rare occurrence, but old ammunition has caused rifle Kabooms.


When smokeless propellants break down NOx gas is released. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_oxide “Oxides of Nitrogen” all of which react and cause corrosion. Nitric acid gas is only produced in the presence of water. Requires a hydronimun ion.

Stabilizers are chemical ingredients added to propellant at time of manufacture to
decrease the rate of propellant degradation and reduce the probability of auto ignition during its expected useful life.

As nitrocellulose-based propellants decompose, they release nitrogen oxides. If the nitrogen oxides are left free to react in the propellant, they can react with the nitrate ester, causing further decomposition and additional release of nitrogen oxides. The reaction between the nitrate ester and the nitrogen oxides is exothermic (i.e., the reaction produces heat). Heat increases the rate of propellant decomposition. More importantly, the exothermic nature of the reaction creates a problem if sufficient heat is generated to initiate combustion. Chemical additives, referred to as stabilizers, are added to propellant formulations to react with free nitrogen oxides to prevent their attack on the nitrate esters in the propellant. The stabilizers are scavengers that act rather like sponges, and once they become “saturated” they are no longer able to remove nitrogen oxides from the propellant. Self-heating of the propellant can occur unabated at the “saturation” point without the ameliorating effect of the stabilizer. Once begun, the self-heating may become sufficient to cause auto ignition.


The Armed Forces have stockpile surveillance programs but each Service does theirs differently. If you want to see all the different tests the military has, look at Mils Std 286 Propellants, Solid: Sampling, Examination and Testing to be found at https://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/.

The Navy expert told me the Navy samples its powders and propellants. If the powder is outgassing nitric gas (as determined by methy violet paper that changes color (Methly Violet test, or Talliani test)), the stuff is tested to see how much stabilizer is left. If the amount is less than or equal to 20%, the lot is scrapped. Scrapping powders and propellants with this percentage of stabilizer appears to be consistent across all services.

Pages 5-11 of the 2003 Army Logistics Propellant Management Guide provide the protocols for testing and subsequent actions for their Stockpile Propellant Program. Basically, all propellant lots are tracked. The trigger for investigation is: "When Master Sample Stability Failure Occurs"

The Navy expert provided 'rules of thumb' concerning when to expect problems with double based and single based propellants. The rules of thumb are: Double based powders and ammunition are scrapped at 20 years, single based 45 years. In his words “These 'rules of thumb' are particularly useful when the protocol fails. The protocol can easily fail when workmanship or good housekeeping measures are not followed during manufacture of propellant and/or rocket motor or during storage of the weapon system components, respectively.”


The expert suggested that it is likely that surplus military powders are not on the market anymore due to liability issues. The stuff was scrapped because the military decided it was not safe to keep around anymore.

For the home reloader, if the powder has turned red, or smells like acid, it is way beyond its safe limits.

The military does not talk about this, but bunkers and ammunition storage areas have gone Kaboom due to old powder. That nitric acid builds up, creates heat, and the stuff blows up. It blows up inside the case or the shell.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=13c_1205681217

This powder is from a FA 11-1898 30-40 Krag cartridge. Obviously it is bad.

30-40FA11-1898Crackedcaseneck.jpg

30-40FA11-1898RedpowderDSCN1095.jpg

I sent the IM expert the link with this Garand blowup, http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?p=1344088
and the pictures of my corroded bullets and pulled Krag red powder, and this is what he wrote back:

Wow

The red color indicates that the stabilizer is depleted and the redox reaction is degrading the nitrate ester. (I assume this is a single base gun propellant, and the nitrate ester is NC.) Please dispose of this powder and ammo supply before it starts to get warm or self-heat (via autocatalytic exothermic reaction). This stuff can be a runaway reaction and spotaneously explode in storage.

The cracked case necks are proof that the outgassing of NOx is occurring. The pressure build-up is evidently enough to fatigue the metal at a high stress location in the cartridge case (@ the neck bend). You should also see a bulge in the cartridge base (where the firing pin would strike b/c there is a circular joint crimp there between the two metals). This ammo would explosively vent at the crack if you tried to fire it in a gun. Just like the Garand example you sent. Please discard this ammo.

The corroded ammo is the same as above (redox reaction gassing NOx) except this stuff actually got wet too. Water provides a medium for corrosive acid reactions to result. Please discard this ammo.

Lessons learned -
(1) Ammo has a finite shelf life
(2) Ammo can be dangerous


More to read if you wish:

www.dtic.mil/dticasd/sbir/sbir031/n154.doc

This paper discusses most of what I have written, but it has a confusing section where it states that “Suddenly, propellant that has spent its entire life in a configuration that was considered inherently safe from the risk of auto ignition is now bulk packaged and stored in a concentrated mass that may be sufficient to allow auto ignition to occur.” After discussions with the Navy expert I found that the insensitive munitions community has its own myths and legends. There are groups within the IM community who promote the “5 inch” rule. The theory is that for munitions 5 inch and smaller, the thermal mass of the case is sufficient to wick away heat and prevent auto ignition. The Navy expert considers this theory to be bogus and created by self serving individuals who get cash awards when they pull a rabbit out of the hat and “extend the shelf life” of propellants.

http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/JulAug08/propellant_stab_eq.html
 
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