...and now my FAL is giving me grief...

[Nightcrawler]

What a crappy week. First my car, then my computer, and now my FAL.

Just bought 1400 rounds of South African ammo, in the 140 round battle packs. Take it to the range today and I get the weirdest jams. It's like the bolt doesn't want to come back out of the chamber. I have to literally disassemble the rifle partially and jerk the bolt rearward to get it out.

I called DSA. They say that the South African stuff is spotty, inconsistent, dirty ammo, and that if I tighten down the gas settings it should work fine. We'll see tomorrow, I guess.

Working the bolt manually, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the extractor and the ejector; there certainly wasn't last time. This rifle NEVER jams like this. The only problems I've ever had were from magazines dragging on the brass causing the occasional failure to feed, and those are fixed by breaking in the mags.

Oh, to top it off, one of the mags I bought from TAPCO was bad. Bad spring, bent feed lips, wouldn't work at all. I unloaded it (a chore, due to the screwed up feed lips), tossed it downrange and put two rounds through it. Solved that problem, anyways. (Eight bucks down the tubes, though. But imagine if this would've been a $50.00 M14 magazine!)

So, I'm in a pretty foul mood. I mean, my rifle is my BABY, and apparently I bought fourteen hundred rounds of bad (or spotty) ammo.

If changing the gas settings doens't fix the problem tomorrow, I'm going to call DSA back, I guess.

*sigh* What a week.

 

[Correia]

South African ammo is usually very good ammo as far as surplus goes.

Give us more details about your malfunctions. When you say you have to disassemble the gun, why? Can the bolt be pulled back manually when the rifle is together?

 

[meathammer]

The last trip to the range, my buddies' DSA FAL had a problem similar to what you are describing. He was also shooting surplus .308. (Portuguese I believe) He had a FTE and the bolt on his rifle was REALLY stuck!

He ended up pulling on the bolt so hard that a small pin on the charging handle (I don't know if that's what it's called) came out and 2 or 3 pieces of the handle came off. He was very upset. FALs are supposed to be built like tanks, right? I'm not ripping on the rifle by the way, I like FALs too.

He sent it back to DSA, they fixed it, and replied with a "Wow, that's never happened before." I'm thinking the chambers on the DSA rifles may be a little tighter maybe? Don't know, let us know what they tell you.

 

[Correia]

If you have something really really jammed in the chamber, rather than putting great pressure onto the charging handle, strike the butt stock on the ground. This will usually "bounce" the bolt enough to unstick it. (also works for short stroked shotguns). The FAL charging handle just isn't that robust.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Okay. The bolt would get stuck not quite all the way forward, but far enough back that I couldn't properly crack the rifle open. I'd have to slam the butt on the ground to get it to go all the way forward, then crack it open. Once it was opened, it took some force to get the bolt back, but it seemed impossible to get it back with the rifle all the way together. I have no idea why.

Happened repeatedly. The brass doesn't seem to be swollen or ballooning or anything, and I've never seen this before. It didn't happen every single time, either, though, and as I said, the rifle functioned fine last time I used it.

Is it possible I installed the Penguin buttstock incorrectly, thus preventing the rattail from going into the stock recoil spring sometimes? I don't have the lower fastening screw installed yet, as I havne't gotten around to drilling a hole in the bottom of the stock to put the screw in.

That still wouldn't explain why the bolt was so difficult to work when disassembled.

I'm stumped. If I can't fix it on my next range trip, I'm sending it back to DSA.

 

[standingbear]

check your gas port where the setting is.sounds like the hole is clogged or something has come loose there(to allow the gas to bleed off without nailing the piston and forcing it to shove the bolt back).turn the setting to the closed position(1)and test fire it.if it jams,its more than likly the gas port hole.dsa pistons are slightly oversized and shouldnt be allowing gas to escape which is why i think its the gas port hole in the barrel.the fal i used to own(im fal-less now;donations?? had the same problems but after replacing the piston with a dsa and opening up the port hole in the barrel,the problem dissappeared.the reason the bolt is so hard to get unstuck is the fired case in the chamber is getting stuck in there.

 

[JohnKSa]

Your gas setting needs to be adjusted.

What's happening is that the round is being partially extracted but the bolt isn't coming back far enough to eject the round. Then it is jammed back into the chamber under the force of the recoil spring.

What you're finding out is how much force is required to extract a fired casing (which expands slightly during firing) from the chamber.

It's normal behavior for a FAL when the gas system needs to be closed a few notches.

The South African stuff isn't as bad as DSA wants you to think, but it does seem to be loaded a lot lighter than some of the .308 surplus out there.

Remember, when you change ammo types, you need to go though the gas adjustment procedure again.

 

[Kharn]

JohnKSa's right on the money, kick the gas up a few notches and it'll work 100%, I did the same thing with my FAL on the first run out (it was running at 3.5, decided to see what it would do at 5.5 and right after I pulled the trigger I realized I'd be doing the Pogo Dance of trying to pogo the bolt carrier open)

IIRC, the proper way to set the gas is to single load the magazines and lower the gas until it no longer locks the bolt open, then close the gas port two clicks.

Kharn

 

[Nightcrawler]

Thanks everybody! The rifle cycles fine manually, so there is nothing physically wrong with it. I do believe it's the gas system; I forgot that I might need to adjust it. It's currently set on 5, which has worked fine with everything so far. Tomorrow I'm going back to the range and I'm going to crank it up to 3, see what happens, and go from there.

I just had no idea that so much force was required to extract the slightly-expanded spent case. WOW.

 

[Cthulhu]

Had the same problem in my FALs with the same ammo. The brass is jamming tight due to slow initial extraction from the insufficient gas pressure. I turned the regulator down to 2 and it ran fine. I think this ammo is loaded on the lightside, as it was the only brand that exhibited this problem. I used Federal 168grn match and Win 147grn FMJ with nary a problem. On the plus side, the SA ammo was very accurate. Ran fine in various M1As too, giving excellent accuracy in a M21 Tactical.

 

[DMK]

Night Crawler, download the PDF FAL manual from here. It has the procedure to set the gas regulator.


There's three files there, but they are just different scans of the same manual.
http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/

 

[Snowdog]

This is blowing my mind... don't you folks mean to say the gas system needs to be opened a few notches. Opening the port will increase gas pressure to the piston.

I've never had to monkey with the gas system on my Springfield SAR-48, but I would imagine that's the way it works.

 

[DMK]

don't you folks mean to say the gas system needs to be opened a few notches. Opening the port will increase gas pressure to the piston.

No, closing the regulator will increase gas pressure to the piston.

The hole between the barrel and gas tube is a fixed size. What you are adjusting with the regulator is a "bleed off" hole that allows excess pressure to escape before the piston.

The FAL is designed this way so that with bad ammo and all kinds of junk in the action, the soldier could close the blead off and make the rifle cycle by increasing the pressure on the piston. Also having the larger than necessary port between the barrel and gas tube allows it to clog up quite a bit before it becomes a problem.

Theoretically, the rifle would cycle the most reliably with the regulator closed all the way, however it would beat the heck out of the gas system and bolt, probably breaking things in short order.

 

[Snowdog]

DMK,

Thanks for the clarification. It all makes sense now.

 

[kotengu]

Hey Nightcrawler - make sure to let us know how it goes. After you fix your FAL, take it out and see what kind of damage .308 will do to your car and computer - it's guaranteed to work better than therapy

 

[Nightcrawler]

Well, took the FAL out today and ran about 80 rounds through it. I would've done more, but it was very warm for my taste and ridiculously humid; my glasses kept fogging up.

I cranked the gas system down to 4 and it now works fine, though the recoil is noticably more stout. I had no function problems whatsoever.

I was hoping I'd be able to come back here and brag that I nailed a pop can at 100 yards on the first shot with iron sights. However, I couldn't SEE it at 100 yards; blended in too well with the background.

I did, however, peg it at 50 yards. It was filled with sand and rocks and it exploded nicely.

I noticed that the bullets from the South African stuff tend to deform and the jackets separate, at least after penetrating the thick log target stands and going into the sand berm.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Maybe you can help me with this, though. Yesterday while firing the screw that holds the front sling swivel on popped out. In order to get it to fasten, you have to pinch the swivel between the ends of the barrel band, and put the screw through. The holes are only threaded on one end, so you have to pinch it really tight. Wtih a pair of needle nosed pliers, I just can't get it.

This might be a good opportunity to get rid of the barrel-mounted sling. DSA has a handguards mounted sling swivel. Has anybody tried this? Can it be mounted to either side?

 

[SodaPop]

I leave my DSA-STG58 on 3 and haven't had any problems.

 

[DMK]

This might be a good opportunity to get rid of the barrel-mounted sling. DSA has a handguards mounted sling swivel. Has anybody tried this? Can it be mounted to either side?

It's still barrel mounted, sort of. The screw goes through the sight/gas block which is mounted on the barrel. If you were to pull on it while shooting, it probably would still affect POI.

That said, I was thinking about finding a Uncle Mike's QD swivel with a machine screw on it and putting it through the sight block on my STG. You'd probably have to put a nut on the other end.

On my Imbel, I used an Uncle Mike's QD swivel set for a .357 lever gun. It clamps on the barrel. The rear screws into the stock with a large wood screw.

 

[kotengu]

I've got an Uncle Mike's stud on my FAL - it's easier to use it as an extra "nut" for the handguard screw. Simply cut off the stud (screw) portion of the QD sling stud, and drill and tap it 10-32. Get a slightly longer (1 1/4", IIRC) handguard screw (10-32) and the sling stud threads on the portion of the screw that protrudes from the left side of the gun.

Piece of cake, and it costs you nothing if you happen to have one lying around.....

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Nightcrawler and guys,

DSA gave you the straight scoop. That South African ammo is spotty and poor QC. (Note that the SA ammo is not NATO spec. SA is not a NATO member and there is no NATO cross on the boxes.)

I had no problem with an FAL until I used SA ammo, when I had the same problem with extraction, and I do mean problem. Some of the SA brass is soft and won't extract if the chamber is even slightly rough. I had to pound the gun open by slamming the op handle against a post. Even closing off the gas valve all the way didn't help.

I polished the chamber using 600 grit paper on a dowel rod. The SA ammo now works fine, and so does everything else.

Jim

 

[C.R.Sam]

And...
Remember that closing the gas bypass down too much will allow it to pull the head off a case. Giving you an opportunity to try out your broken case extractor.

Sam

 

[lionking]

Bringing back a ancient thread because today I had problems with my DSA SA58 FAL, trying out South African surplus for the first time in it. So I did a title search on the forum and came up with this thread.

Dang nightcrawler, My Honda Element is recently having AC problems, my laptop is acting funny sometimes, and now my FAL also.

So reading through this thread what I experienced today sounded familiar to other posts. My FAL, which I haven't shot that much, and only used Federal 150gr soft points has worked fine until trying that R1M1 ammo today.

The bolt would fail to close fully every time when using the magazine. I shot it single shot today to do a 10 round group to see how the ammo would deliver. Then one the 11th shot of a second go around, it ceased up and wouldn't extract. I finally got the bolt to open by bouncing the butt on the floor like suggested *thanks*.

Hre are pics of what happened, and pics of the case after I got the bolt open. The case is a little rough, but doesn't seem ripped or damaged. The bolt open and closes now just fine empty.

I had already tried this SA ammo in two M1A's. In one it often failed to strip off the magazine, but produced alright, not great, but alright groups. The second M1A it shot without a problem but produced dismail 6 to 7 inch groups of 10 at 100yds. Can't say it was my skill because of such wide groups because using Federal 150gr in those M1A's I get 2 to 3 inch groups at 100yds typically.

Now the FAL, despite being a nightmare to function with the SA ammo, did produce a *decent* group, but still not as accurate as the commercial Federal ammo.

So like nightcrawler, I have a stash of about 600 rounds of this South African ammo, I guess if I want to use it in my FAL I 'll have to try messin' with the gas, and as far as using it in my M1A's, well it won'y be used for accuracy potentials.

I'd like to get some of that German surplus in sealed bags and see if it does any better. As you can see from the close up photo of the bolt it was stuck in that position till I beat the butt stock on the floor to open the bolt and extract the spent case.

 

[blitzen]

Can't comment on the rifle because I don't have one, but I've shot a couple thousand rounds of SA surplus through my M1A without ever a problem. I think it's some of the most accurate reliable stuff out there. My last battle pack (140 rnds) has a price tag of $35.00 on it so I'm saving it for when I really need it. I would question your gun before the ammo based on my own experience.

 

[lionking]

quote~"Can't comment on the rifle because I don't have one, but I've shot a couple thousand rounds of SA surplus through my M1A without ever a problem. I think it's some of the most accurate reliable stuff out there. My last battle pack (140 rnds) has a price tag of $35.00 on it so I'm saving it for when I really need it. I would question your gun before the ammo based on my own experience. "

Well I guess it does better for some people than others, better in some rifles than others. Hard for me to say just how accurate it is in my FAL, because while attempting another 10 round volley it ceased after the first shot. The group above I did single shot because it would not feed properly, the bolt did the same thing pictured when stripping a round off the magazine.

My M1A NM, the SA ammo would fail to properly strip a round from the magazine sometimes, but did hold a blah sized group.

My M1A standard, the SA ammo fed and fired flawlessly but did terrible groups.

Both the FAL and M1A's have performed great function and accuracy wise with other ammo so far specially Federal 150gr SP.

With surplus ammo sometimes a different year or lot can be better or worse, it could be this lot I have made in 11/79 is just a bad batch. But seeing how others in this thread have had the same problems it doesn't seem to be just my rifle that has problems with SA ammo.

So as it stands right now my stash of SA ammo is for plinking status in the M1A, and unless it does better after messing with the gas on my FAL, it just won't be used in the FAL although based on my one 10 shot volley it seem to group ok.

If some SHTF scenerio ever happened, I think I'll be loading the rifles with something more proven to be reliable.