And speaking about the illegal infestation..

[shecky]

I gotta disagree. The economic utility of illegal labor is based in the reality of a means of avoiding and shifting costs. Legalize illegal immigrant labor in an effort to bring it all above board and you've just made a step increase in the cost of the now legal labor. You've just imposed on the former illegal immigrant the same cost that drove business interests to use illegal immigrant labor.

Avoiding and shifting costs happens whether it's legal or not. Some transactions will remain cash only. Just a reality. That is a separate issue. The issue here is immigration and supply and demand.

Considering the large numbers of illegal immigrants working in the US, I'd say there is definitely a demand. One that won't likely go away unless it's regulated up the wazoo. But if that happens, we're all losers in the end, because it would entail increases in government spending, intrusiveness, and poorer economy for the trouble.

 

[shecky]

I respectfully disagree. American pay taxes, and insurance, and other costs that illegals don't. We are all paying for the benefits (medical, education, etc.) that illegals receive without contributing to.

You're assuming Americans all pay taxes. And that all illegals don't. That's not the case.

Furthermore, their contribution is in the form of a convenient, low wage labor. That low initial cost is what the US economy demands. All consumers benefit from it, regardless if we pay taxes or not.

If all labor were magically taxed and regulated the same, initial costs would be higher to all consumers, but some of the later costs (medical, education, etc.) would be lower to individuals, as the tax burden would be spread among more people. I'm not sure it would be less, since anyone paying into the system then has more justification to use the system's resources.

I tend to dislike the collective mindset. Which is why I'm not bothered by whether anyone "contributes" to society. If they work for a living, that's contribution enough.

 

[gc70]

I tend to dislike the collective mindset. Which is why I'm not bothered by whether anyone "contributes" to society. If they work for a living, that's contribution enough.

Good! Would you please send a note to the IRS volunteering to assume my portion of the cost for supporting illegal aliens, because I do mind.

As long as 300 million of us are sharing the costs of America, I object to the 10 million who have snuck in for a free ride.

 

[crazed_ss]

You ever see how hard those illegals work? I have never in my life seen anyone work as hard as they do. And they do a good job too.
They SLAVE under the hot sun for low wages.
I'd hardly call the experience of illegal immigrants a "free ride"

 

[Jammer Six]

Economics drive the underground population and there will be a problem as long that population is able to reap the benefits of American society without contributing to it.

Their contribution is huge. It's much larger than several American contributions, and is neccessary for our way of life.

Who we are depends on it. How we are depends on it.

The rest is fear, and arm waving.

We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border.

 

[wingman]

Furthermore, their contribution is in the form of a convenient, low wage labor. That low initial cost is what the US economy demands. All consumers benefit from it, regardless if we pay taxes or not.

They contribute to who in the form of low wage labor, that is ludicrous. All consumers benefit from "it", it what.?

Illegal labor profits only the wealthy, the working poor gets the shaft as normal. In many cases illegal labor is slave labor and should be consider so. People who hire illegal labor are the worse of our society. Please do not dignify the hiring of illegal labor as just because it is simply greed on the part of those who employ them .

 

[Kodiaz]

Actually what they are is sharecroppers they make money but not enough to improve their condition so they live 20 to a house hand send their money home. Illegals are the new slaves and the people that hire them are the new plantation owners.

 

[GTSteve03]

Should the marketplace be allowed to ignore laws that it finds "inconvenient"?

Is it ok to allow businesses to hire people that are here against the laws of the United States simply because it benefits said business' bottom line?

What other laws should businesses be allowed to circumvent in the name of "lowering operating costs" and "staying competitive"?

 

[Cellar Dweller]

Amnesty for current illegals: brings them "into the system." Now they'll be subject to Fed and state labor law, which means:
1. subject to OT limitations (no more 70-hour weeks at base pay) and OSHA (no incentive to do things "Americans won't do," like willfully ignoring PPE on jobs that require use to collect on OTJ injury)
2. higher costs of employment (wage, FICA, unemployment, benefits)
3. thus, a higher cost to employ these "former illegals"

which all create a NEW demand for NEW illegals. Since the vast majority of current illegals are in low-skill, low-pay, non-English-communicating-required jobs, what will they be suited for now? The unemployment line? The pressure of adding another X million potentials to the low-skill pool ensures wages staying low; the lack of skills/education/English communication ensures that there is no path of improvement.

As is stands, there is an unfair playing field for employers and employees. Company "A" hires illegals, company "B" doesn't. "Americans" won't get hired by "A" and "B" tries to keep wages down to try to compete. "A" can spend more on CapEx than "B," or can simply be more profitable. "A" flaunts labor law and falls back on how much more valuable to the economy they are than "B" if there is a crackdown. "A" gets a minor slap if there is a crackdown, so no disincentive there...

If, in a truly "level market" the wages of a lettuce picker = $30/hr, then automation becomes cost-effective...or lettuce becomes a luxury. There is no Right to Fresh Produce at a Reasonable Price, but there is a Condition of Citizenship to Obey the Law.

 

[Biker]

Jammer Six...

Do you hire illegals?

Biker

 

[ctdonath]

Illegals are the new slaves and the people that hire them are the new plantation owners.

Did I stumble into DU accidentally? or has there been an influx of DU invaders? (suppose fair's fair on that one.)

No, they're not slaves. Anyone saying they are doesn't know what a slave is. These workers VOLUNTARILY come here, by any means necessary, and work very hard just so they can send the money back home. A rough life indeed, but there's a huge difference between doing everything you can for a buck vs. being owned by others who will make you do anything to make them a buck (and kill you if you try to leave). Doing work for an agreed-on wage is fair - especially without the socialist overhead that prevents Americans from doing those jobs at fair prices.

The people that hire these workers are NOT "the new plantation owners". Anyone saying so is ignorant or bigoted. Businesses need work done, they offer to pay people for the work, and pay them when the work is done. It's voluntary labor. That such work may be done "under the table" using illegal immigrants actually says much more about how bad the socialist overhead is getting, as the workers and the employers are simply getting a job done for an agreed-on wage - WITHOUT interference by a meddlesome polypragmonocracy that forces employers to pay more than a job is worth, enforce immigration laws, pay confiscatory taxes, and other overhead that has nothing to do with fair payment for voluntary labor.

I just started a new job, and once again had to go thru a pile of paperwork which frankly my employer should not have to deal with.
- Proof of legal presence? I'm a citizen; leave me the heck alone.
- Salary witholding? It's my taxes, I'll pay 'em, give me the money.
- Affirmative action? If race doesn't matter, why do I have to state it?
- Drug tests? Programming under the influence isn't a problem; leave my pee alone.
- Social security deductions? I'll pay for my own retirement, and I'll do much better with that 7% witheld than the feds will handing it immediately over to someone else still capable of working.
and so on.

I'd love to employ someone. I could use a housekeeper. I can even afford one and provide room & board. Thanks to so much gov't meddling, I can't - so someone willing to work for fair compensation can't get the job, and is bound for the unemployment line.

Can the babbling about "slavery" and "plantations". I live in the South. Those words have meanings you obviously don't understand.

 

[ctdonath]

Should the marketplace be allowed to ignore laws that it finds "inconvenient"?

When laws become unduly burdensome, people stop following them.

What few understand is that laws only work by cooperation. When the cost of compliance exceeds the cost of non-compliance, especially by a significant factor, guess which people choose to do.

When there is a significant rate of non-compliance by people who normally are exceedingly compliant, the answer is to reconsider the law, not to enhance enforcement.

Remember, this country came into existence precisely because the people found the English laws "inconvenient", started ignoring laws, and started revolting.

 

[GTSteve03]

Remember, this country came into existence precisely because the people found the English laws "inconvenient", started ignoring laws, and started revolting.

The problem is, "the people" don't find immigration laws inconvenient. It is the "employers" that do. Are we now living in a country where the will of the people is not what is important, but the will of the business?

I believe that is known as a "plutocracy," not "constitutional republic."

 

[Zen21Tao]

I haven't read every post so forgive me if I am repeating what anyone else has said.

1. The argumengt that illegals are doing jods that Americans won't do only exist becasue we have a Government that pays its citizens not to work. Why would a citizen do a low paying job if he or she can make more by collecting welfare. Instead on have "guest worker" programs we need to do away with the welfare programs that enable people not to work. If it is made a survival thing, work low paying jobs or starve to death, you would be surprised at the types of jobs Americans would be willing to do.

2. Amnesty and Guest worker programs just reward people for breaking the law. I understand that many people feel that illegal immigration shouldn't be illegal but that is a legislative matter. That fact is, like it or not, their is legal and illegal way to be in this country. If we are going to reward people for getting here illegally why not also send trophys and plaques to prisioners for robbery, burglary, etc. Crime is crime and shouldn't be condoned let alone rewarded.

 

[Jammer Six]

If it is made a survival thing, work low paying jobs or starve to death, you would be surprised at the types of jobs Americans would be willing to do.

If you made a "survival thing", quadraprlegics would be the first to go, followed by other medical problem, and then by single mothers.

We need immigrants. We always have.

We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border, and the country they're coming from gets weaker.

The lazy don't come, nor do the cowards.

It doesn't surprise me at all that those who do come strike terror in the hearts of American workers everywhere.

 

[Zen21Tao]

We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border, and the country they're coming from gets weaker.

I totally disagree. I think that we get weaker with each illegal immagrent for a number of reasons. First, a majority that come here to earn money not only don't pay taxes on their income they send most of their earned money back to their home country. This is why the Mexican government all but carries illegals across the borders. Second, allowing illegal imigration undermines the value of American citizenship. What good is it to be an American if anyone that crosses the boarder is treated as a citzen. Third, rewarding the illegal imegration undermines the legal system by instilling people with the feeling that they needn't follow a law they disagree with. This is see quite frequantly with jury nulification. Forth, illegal imigration undermines the US in the eyes of everyone the does endure the process of coming here legally and becoming a citizen. These people that come here legally and follow the appropriate steps to become citizens are what makes our country stronger.

 

[Jammer Six]

First, a majority that come here to earn money not only don't pay taxes on their income they send most of their earned money back to their home country.

A common misconception, but only among employees.

What good is it to be an American if anyone that crosses the boarder is treated as a citzen.

If you really don't see the answer to that, not only can I not help you, but I pity you, as well as all those who are trapped into "learning" from you.

Have a nice day.

 

[hwp]

Nice way to dodge biker's question jammersix.

IMO if you hire illegals you should go to jail and all your assets should be seized and sold to help fund a far more aggressive and effective border patrol.

It is not always about the bottom line. YOU HIRED MEXICANS BECAUSE THEY WERE CHEAPER AND COULDN'T SPEAK ENOUGH ENGLISH TO COMPLAIN! How can a Mexican that can't read the instructions for a claw hammer be a better carpenter than a journeyman? THEY CAN'T! But they are cheaper and that is all you care about.

The only people I ever hear side with the immigrants are greedy people and idiots.

I bet your "customers" are glad the carpenters building their home are illiterate (most likely in spanish as well as English) and racking up thousands in ER bills (that I help pay for) for injuries that workers comp would cover if you were not breaking the law.

 

[longeyes]

Their contribution is huge. It's much larger than several American contributions, and is neccessary for our way of life.

Who we are depends on it. How we are depends on it.

Right. America rides on the backs of illegal aliens. Sure. This will be a surprise for millions of America skilled service and information workers.

Illegals are the new slaves and the people that hire them are the new plantation owners.

Not really. The new slave is the American taxpayer and the plantation owner is the U.S. Government. The illegals are foreign mercenaries in the war against the American citizen.

 

[gc70]

by hwp
Nice way to dodge biker's question jammersix.

I don't think he did; I think he was just coy in his response.

by jammersix

A common misconception, but only among employees.

Since jammersix is not subject to employee misconceptions, could that mean that he is not an employee?

 

[Sindawe]

Stop picking on Jammer...

Let him enjoy his 30 pieces of silver in peace.

 

[gc70]

Their contribution is huge. It's much larger than several American contributions, and is neccessary for our way of life.

Yeah. And their halos will light the way to America's future.

 

[notupperwareplease]

Wow...this bigotry towards Mexicans who want to come to the US by any means because life sucks in Mexico is wonderful...

How about, instead of trying to find reasons to deny Hispanics access to our freedom and way of life...we fix the "grievances" y'all have.

1) Ditch Welfare. It's not the government's job to make sure you have a home or anything. Capitalism?

2) Ditch Social Security. Same argument as Welfare. Capitalism at work.

If you want to whine about your tax money, there are bigger problems than illegal immigration. Try abolishing...oh...90% of government agencies and programs. Starting with BATF

And stealing jobs? Please. If anybody in any bluecollar trade wants work, go to the Gulf Coast. I have a relative in the construction business in Louisiana. He can't find enough work. He tries to stay within the law, but it may come to the point where he has to hire "illegal" crews because everyone else bailed out and left.

Stealing jobs and the decline of America because of illegal immigration is a myth. With all of the laws we have nowadays, being a criminal doesn't make you an evil person. Dodging income taxes? Dang, I wish I could do that . Really, though....if hiring them wasn't illegal, then they could be hired and registered, etc and would have to pay taxes.

And no, Biker, it isn't your business if he hires illegals. So what if he does? How does that make his or your argument any more valid? Him answering the question will only open an opportunity for you all to bash his reputation and not his argument, which, in real life (unlike in a court of law) are completely separable.

 

[Zen21Tao]

First, a majority that come here to earn money not only don't pay taxes on their income they send most of their earned money back to their home country.

A common misconception, but only among employees.

http://www.cairco.org/econ/econ.html[/url]) $60 billion dollars are earned by illegal aliens in the U.S. each year. One of Mexico's largest revenue streams (after exports and oil sales) consists of money sent home by legal immigrants and illegal aliens working in the U.S. Economists say this will help Mexico reduce its $17.8 billion defecit and may bolster the peso. $10 billion dollars (as of 2003) are sent back to Mexico annually, according to the Pew Hispanic Center, reported in an Associated Press article, up $800 million from the previous year. ($9 billion dollars were previously sent back annually, according to a September 25, 2002 NPR report). That figure equals what Mexico earns annually from tourism. This is a massive transfer of wealth from America - essentially from America's displaced working poor - to Mexico.

Bolstering the Peso with Billions of dollars earned here in the US that is sent to Mexico thus removing it from the US GDP is strengening Mexico and weakening the US. You make a valuable point that American businesses benefit from the low labor costs that are passed on to consumers in the form of cheaper products. To be a fair trade off this benefit would have to equal the amount of money lost from the GDP. This may or mot be the case. A point I was also making is that the same low paying services that illegal immagrents perform for business could be done by Americans if market restrictions like minimum wage were eliminated and social "bail out" programs were ended. In addition to these costs/benefits are the costs for "other" services like Medical care, legal matters, educational costs, etc. for illegals that amount to billions and billions of tax payer dollars.

What good is it to be an American if anyone that crosses the boarder is treated as a citzen.

If you really don't see the answer to that, not only can I not help you, but I pity you, as well as all those who are trapped into "learning" from you.

Thankyou for your offer of pity but I don't need it. I was mearly pointing out that allowing illegal immigration to rewarded with citizenship undermines the value of citizenship. This isn't just based on my own opinion. I have a number of friends that are immagrents from countries like England, Russia, Poland and Sweden. All of which are currently undergoing the requirements to become legal citizens. They all have told be that they feel like their efforts and the value the see in being a "legal" citizen is undermined by others that are allowed to come here illegally and stay.

 

[hwp]

Wow...this bigotry towards Mexicans who want to come to the US by any means because life sucks in Mexico is wonderful...

I thought someone might play a race card at some point. Sounds like either a DC Democrat or a misguided college student entered the fray.

The only people I ever hear side with the immigrants are greedy people and idiots.

See above and classify yourself race monger.