Ann hits the nail on the head about amnesty

[mnrivrat]

Any enforcement will require door-to-door searches, assumption of guilt until proven innocence, and chucking the 4th amendment out the window.

I think you can do a lot by enforcing existing laws and the arguement that it would take a round-up of some sort strikes me as thoughtless . All you realy need to do is take away the incentives for illegal trespass onto US soil.

That means proof of legal residence prior to hiring, it means no welfare benifits to illegals, no jobs, no medical care, no automatic citizenship for newborns when the parent is in country illegaly, it means heavy fines for empoyers who hire illegals, it means we realy don't need bi-linguel teachers in our schools, or the need to print anything in other than english.

Take the benifits of being here away and they will go home - you don't need to round them up. If you want to however , you can start on the streets where they stand in crowds for the media attention , chanting something about their right to be here despite our laws !

 

[kbheiner7]

Marshall: So we should do the same with Chinese, Irish, Cuban, African American, Russian, East European, and people of other races? I mean if it is to stop illegals?

I bet that if I looked into your eye I would see a man consumed by hatred for Mexicans and Arabs. Got any statistics to support your claim about millions of illegals draining us dry? I mean how many illegals leech off the welfare system or other social services?

The right to unreasonable search and seizure. To stop someone and demand to inspect their greencard is pretty unconstitutional? Could you not argue that demanding they provide proof of their innocence is unconstitutional? I think the government should have to provide the proof.

But hey when were talking about rounding up brown people, its ok.

Bingo. I am shocked by the fact that so many High Roaders have bought the crap about illegals lock, stock and barrel.

Yes, these folks do pose a few problems, but it is silly to suggest they are harming this country more than they help it. Most of them are hard-working folks that want a better life for themselves. Having visited parts of Mexico that do not attract tourists, I know I'd take my family to the US too, legal or not. This is a very human issue, folks. The Mexican government makes ours look honest.

The borders should be secured, but not to keep Mexicans out. We face much bigger threats and should focus on those issues.

 

[mnrivrat]

Yes, these folks do pose a few problems, but it is silly to suggest they are harming this country more than they help it.

And since all the data I have seen so far is in dispute with that statement, perhaps you could share the data and information you have to support it .

It is a human issue - the issue is wether you believe in putting america and your fellow citizens in jepordy and take their money to pay for services for illegal trespassing non-citizens. No matter their place of origin.

The BS argument that it is hateful to not give away what we and our fathers worked for to those who start life here with an illegal act, is lame at best. Trying to use the "race" card is just as lame.

 

[Limeyfellow]

The new plan doesn't do anything really.

To qualify they have to leave the country, pay $5000 in fines per person plus thousands more in fees to file the claim. They then have to wait between 7-10 years to see if they qualify. No one is going to take that if they are already illegal in the country. They either doing too well to want to close everything down for a decade or can't afford the money.

The only thing its done is allow two year work visas for unskilled workers with limitations on the worker's rights, if they get sick or complain about being worked as slaves they immediately get kicked out the country and don't have to obey all the rules that are required when hiring someone legally in the US.

So farmers and so on get cheaper more useable workforce that is easily deposiable.

It hasn't answered any the problems either way on illegal immigration.

 

[Marshall]

The problem with that answer is that we have millions and millions of US citizens of Hispanic persuasion.

The problem with that answer Budney, is that if it was only 1000 it wouldn't be a problem, since you say the amount is the problem. Then the due process you use as an argument is only valid if the numbers are low enough thus making your argument moot.

Due process:
In general a constitutional concept (Fourteenth Amendment) that no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without legal protection in the form of being present at a hearing, having the opportunity to be heard, and having the opportunity to present evidence (Barr, 1988).

I see nothing that deprives someone of due process in asking them for a piece of paper? They're being given the opportunity to present evidence.

Someone else wrote:

And since all the data I have seen so far is in dispute with that statement, perhaps you could share the data and information you have to support it .

I already provided that evidence, please re-read.

Furthermore, those that are harping about our rights, evidently have less respect for our laws. Breath on a right and you'll b*tch till the cows come home, break the law and silence becomes deafening. Ironic at best.

 

[Patriot-Brewer]

closing hospitals/E.R.'s...remaining over taxed
increasing traffic congestion and related pollution
over crowded jails (apx 25% of jail population in LA county are illegal aliens and that may be an old #)
over taxed courts...see above
over taxed police...see above
over taxed water supply
over taxed electrical supply
over taxed gasoline supply...higher prices
over taxed citizens


Yeah, they don't really cause any problems for us.

If you don't live in the middle of it, it's hard to know the truth.

 

[wooderson]

The problem with that answer Budney, is that if it was only 1000 it wouldn't be a problem, since you say the amount is the problem. Then the due process you use as an argument is only valid if the numbers are low enough thus making your argument moot.

This isn't even bordering on coherent.

So a yes/no answer instead:

Do you think it is acceptable for authorities to be able to detain an American citizen, demanding 'papers,' based on nothing more than the color of his skin?

Yes or no?

 

[wooderson]

Your "facts" are... ironic.

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.
[...]
On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.

Wait, I thought the cry was that the damn dirty illegals didn't pay taxes? You mean they do pay taxes? Make up your minds, wackjobs.

What your statistic here ignores is income: illegal immigrants are, universally, on the low end of the income spectrum. Their income places them at a tax level lower than other individuals: just as it would if they were natural-born whites with low incomes.

By the logic evidenced here, we need to deport anyone whose income level is below the national median (but wait, then the bottom end of that group...).

Among the largest costs

Can you do the math for me? What percentage of federal expenditures do the charges laid out here encompass. (We'll accept these numbers as 'fact' for now.)

With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.

So all Americans lacking a high school diploma or working in low-wage jobs are equally a drag.

Probably not deserving of citizenship, right?

 

[wooderson]

closing hospitals/E.R.'s...remaining over taxed
increasing traffic congestion and related pollution
over crowded jails (apx 25% of jail population in LA county are illegal aliens and that may be an old #)
over taxed courts...see above
over taxed police...see above
over taxed water supply
over taxed electrical supply
over taxed gasoline supply...higher prices
over taxed citizens

Cite 'em. Specifics, my man, specifics.

 

[eric_t12]

Ann +1,
The after effects of this obviously un-amnesty bill are far too many, and too much for us the taxpayers... not to mention on the medical side... prisons... its insane... i can't think of one reason why this would be good for anyone other than someone looking for instant pro-them voters, or insta-cheap-labor.

 

[Patriot-Brewer]

Wooderson,

I can go waste my time digging up the specifics for you (you don't want to believe them anyways) but in my opinion it only takes a little deductive reasoning, common sense and basic economics.

My not posting thesis papers and foundation studies related to this problem doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. I see, hear and read it every week and know both people who don't mind hiring them and people that deal with some of the side effects.

If you don't want to consider some/all of the things I've listed, that's fine.


Do your own DD!

 

[Autolycus]

Originally posted by mnrivrat:

I think you can do a lot by enforcing existing laws and the arguement that it would take a round-up of some sort strikes me as thoughtless . All you realy need to do is take away the incentives for illegal trespass onto US soil.

That means proof of legal residence prior to hiring, it means no welfare benifits to illegals, no jobs, no medical care, no automatic citizenship for newborns when the parent is in country illegaly, it means heavy fines for empoyers who hire illegals, it means we realy don't need bi-linguel teachers in our schools, or the need to print anything in other than english.

Take the benifits of being here away and they will go home - you don't need to round them up. If you want to however , you can start on the streets where they stand in crowds for the media attention , chanting something about their right to be here despite our laws !

I actually agree with you on taking away the incentives for coming to US soil. However what are the incentives? I would argue freedom is the number one incentive.

Got any statistics to show that illegals get welfare? Everyone is able to get healthcare when they go into the ER as the doctors have a codified oath they have to follow.

Why wouldn'y we need bi-lingual teachers or non-English printed stuff? English is not the national language. It is the defacto language. So I would argue that until English is made into the national language that you should have equal oppurtunities to non-English speakers.

You would round up people for protesting something you disagree with and for voicing their beliefs? I am sure that is constitutional. Why not tell people that they cannot practice their religion or own certain firearms because you disapprove of them?

 

[mnrivrat]

I already provided that evidence, please re-read.

Marshall , before you snarl at the dogs in your own pack you should "re-read".

The evidence and data I asked for was regarding another posters comments that indicted the illegals were having little effect or harm .

The info you posted was showing that they in fact were costing us a great deal of money.

I think your data came from the 2002 study the Center For Immigration Studies.

One can also look at more currant studies provided by The Federation of American Immigration Reform or perhaps the Rector study from the Heritage Foundation.

The $10 billion figure used in 2002 was assuming a 5 million count for illegals.

Later studies have put the cost to California alone at about that figure.

I'm still waiting for someone to point to a credible study that concludes that illegal immigration is a benifit to us as a country.

 

[Patriot-Brewer]

I think you can do a lot by enforcing existing laws and the arguement that it would take a round-up of some sort strikes me as thoughtless . All you realy need to do is take away the incentives for illegal trespass onto US soil.

That means proof of legal residence prior to hiring, it means no welfare benifits to illegals, no jobs, no medical care, no automatic citizenship for newborns when the parent is in country illegaly, it means heavy fines for empoyers who hire illegals, it means we realy don't need bi-linguel teachers in our schools, or the need to print anything in other than english.

Take the benifits of being here away and they will go home - you don't need to round them up. If you want to however , you can start on the streets where they stand in crowds for the media attention , chanting something about their right to be here despite our laws !

minrivrat...I completely agree with you. Start by going after the employers and stopping non-emergency health care. Going to our ER's for the common cold is rediculous.

 

[NCLivingBrit]

As a legal immigrant, nothing ticks me off more than illegals.

I have years of time and tends of thousands of dollars invested in allowing me to live and work in this country so I can be with my American (NJ) wife. I pay taxes, a -ton- of goverment fees and all sorts of expenses to satisfy the BCIS. I cannot benefit from any of the social programs that are paid for with deductions from my paycheque without the government seeking restitution from my spouse......

I used to work in retail (it begins with W and ends with Mart) and you have no idea how often the WIC card/Matricula Consular combination (I never asked for this "ID" card, they always just produced it. It's in Spanish) would come across my register.

So when I see illegals (see below) claiming government benefits I not only don't, but can't claim as a legal resident alien, I wonder why I bothered with the whole BCIS process in the first place. My lawyer herself admitted/suggested I would have an easier time if I had come into Mexico and crossed the border illegally, as she would be able to save me a substantial amount of time and money as the process for an illegal who married a US citizen and wants to become a legal resident is far easier than the process for a foreign national who is in the US legally to marry a US citizen and has chosen to live in her homeland.

Note: The Matricula Consular has almost no safeguards as to its issuance and is widely used to establish fake identities and as ID in the US by illegal aliens and criminals: http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030627-120946-7472r.htm)

Don't ask me to support, condone, permit or ignore illegal immigration, because you'll be sadly disappointed. I feel no "kinship" or "common cause" with the millions of these criminals who choose to flout the laws of this land by their very presence, who funnel billions of dollars out of our economy ($39 million per day in 2003 according to http://www.migrationinformation.org/Feature/display.cfm?ID=89) and who abuse the services paid for and provided for citizens (20% of my wifes class are the children of illegals, often speaking no English and placing an unnecessary strain of her school's very finite resources with their extra requirements).

There are procedures and processes by which one can gain access and residency in this country. If you choose to ignore them you're no better than a common criminal and should be treated as such.

 

[eric_t12]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

i'm glad we finally got a consenting opinion from someone who actually FEELS the difference between being a/an legal and illegal alien.

Thank you very much for posting that.

 

[dm1333]

Cite 'em. Specifics, my man, specifics.

Just type in "cost of illegal immigration in California" on any search engine. I just moved out of California. I don't agree that "most" of them are honest hard working people. I could agree with "many" but having worked with cops, firefighters, State Parks, Fish and Game, CHP and the county SO I was also aware of how many were engaged in drug dealing, theft, gang related activities, etc.

No one will convince me that the government is serious about stopping illegal aliens until a wall with guards and cameras goes up across the whole southern border.

 

[Deavis]

most of them are honest hard working people

The may be hard working but they are not honest. They are criminals breaking the law, plain and simple. You can throw the race card like Jesse Jackson does at people who are against illegal immigration to try and legitimize your position but no matter what, they are still criminals.

 

[SWMAN]

I wonder if Ann is as good with a pistol as she is with a pen?

 

[defjon]

Coulter actually supports McCarthyism??!

She's a loon.

And hot...if you're into skeletor...

 

[WildeKurt]

Honest?

It's not possible for me to call honest a person who sneaks into a country illegally and lives a lie. To work here they have to at some point lie about either their citizenship or immigration status. The lie at the very least would be a verbal one but in many if not most cases extents itself to using forged documents and even possibly stolen identities. These are not the actions of an honest person.

 

[crazed_ss]

Marshall: Your the one advocating throwing our rights out the window and you say Budney has no respect for America? Last I thought the founding fathers looked down on the idea of carrying papers to be produced at a moments notice for an agent of the state.

I look Mexican but I am a United States Citizen. Would you have me stopped and asked for proof of citizenship based on my appearance? I would not ask for your rights to be violated just because I look like someone else.

Dont bother. I've had this same exact argument with gun owners 1000 times. It's funny how people who claim to be such staunch supporters of the 2nd Amendment are ready to throw out other parts of the constitution to achieve their own means.

It's as if they're so blinded by hatred of illegals, they cant see that they're sacrificing their own principles in an attempt to come up with a solution.

 

[crazed_ss]

I see nothing that deprives someone of due process in asking them for a piece of paper? They're being given the opportunity to present evidence.

And what happens when an American citizen of Hispanic descent leaves his "papers" at home? Does he or she get detained until they're able to provide their citizenship status?

 

[ojibweindian]

Solving the illegal immigration problem is simple.

1. Implement a Federal Sales Tax (Fair Tax). That way, everybody pays in every time they buy something.

2. Heavy fines on employers that hire people that have no documentable proof of citizenship.

3. No public services for those who cannot produce proof of citizenship. That means no SocSec, welfare, medicare/medicaid, access to public/private education, no WIC, etc.

4. Fast track to citizenship for those in the country illegally once they complete 4 years of public service to the country (i.e. military service).

Once the public teat dries out, people will not want to illegally enter the country.

 

[Zen21Tao]

Ojibweindian, I agree with you on the first three but I cannot and will not support any form of "fast track" to citizenship for illegal. I know far to many people trying to immigrate here legally and the hardships they face doing so.

Not only do I see such a "fast track" program as rewarding people for breaking the law, I see this as a slap in the face to all those who want to and try to come here legally. Sure many will say that such a program makes illegals earn a citizenship and thus isn't a type of amnesty but I believe such a program should be offered first to those trying to come her legally. Those are the immigrants we should be embracing.