Another 1851 Navy Problem

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Go ahead and re-write the patent anyway you want. You're still wrong
You still haven't told me why. I didn't rewrite anything, just added some clarity to a basic 4th grade paragraph.
Why would you purposely deepen the cavity or file the end of the base pin, if a bottomed arbor is what you're after? Even if you read it that way, it still says that the wedge can be driven further in to make everything fit as it should.
 
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OK! One last time. We are starting with a worn gun that either from the cylinder suffering abrasion or the back of the barrel damaged we now have too much gap between the barrel and the cylinder and we want to close it up.
Since the arbor pin bottoms out in the arbor hole and is not a wearing part it is keeping us from moving the barrel back to close up the overly large gap.
We have two choices. One would be to deepen the arbor hole so that the barrel can move back the required amount or we can shorten the arbor pin which achieves the same result. One other thing. You would have to remove the same amount from the area where the frame meets the barrel lug where the two locator pins are at. Now the barrel can move back because we have adjusted it. The wedge can now hold it in place. Do you get it now?
 
OK. I give up you are right and I am wrong. The wedge is used to adjust for wear. If you get a little wear get out your hammer and beat the wedge something will move I guarantee it.
I really hope you don't work on other people's guns.
 
For the record:

Having torn down, examined, 'smithed, and reassembled a fair number of original Colt cap & ball revolvers, and some "open top" cartridge conversions as well, I think that denster is right, and respectively suggest that pohill needs to read more then patents. On most post-1848 Colts the barrel and cylinder arbor were individually fitted so that the arbor bottomed in the barrel's hole, and then the back of the barrel was filed if necessary to establish a correct barrel/cylinder gap. Subsequently, a wedge was also fitted, and usually serial numbered to the gun. Sometimes you will find a partial serial number on the arbor. All of these numbers were necessary because the fitting was done while the parts were still "in the white" and not finished or case hardened.

As I mentioned in a previous post, patents were obtained to tie down as many features as possible, so that future competitors couldn’t use them. Over the years Colt constantly made changes – small and large – and modified manufacturing methods and procedures to improve his products.

Last but not least, current reproductions of Colt’s cap & ball revolvers do not always follow the original production techniques in many respects. Thus you cannot use Colt’s patents or patent drawings as a guide to addressing issues in these modern revolvers.
 
WOW!!

All this is mind boggling......making my head hurt.:banghead:
I just shot my Navy and it seems OK. No target just opened up on a sweet gum about 15 yards away. (don't like sweet gums). But I think I'm going to keep it a year or so and just shoot it. Then either hang it on the wall or sell it and get another Remy. I believe I favor Remys like Smokin_ Gun
After all this discussion which I did enjoy reading, it appears to me there's just too many things to go wrong with a Colt. I believe a Remy will be more durable in the long run.
 
Ah, ya want durability, get a Ruger Old Army. Mine's very accurate and unbreakable. But, I like the colts for what they are, fun, historical, interesting. The Remmies are fine, fun guns, too. I have a ASM built .31 pocket Remington. It's a neat gun, too. They're all different and I like 'em all for one reason or another. BP guns, other than hunting guns, are one area of firearms where I tend to give up on being practical. :D I would have bought a .44 Remington by now to give me another example of the gunmaker's art, but I had the hots for another BP rifle.

BTW, sorry I bought up the barrel wedge thing. Started a thread jack I didn't foresee.:scrutiny:
 
Old Fuff, I do not know what your credentials are, and I really do not care, nor do I care how many guns you've smithed, but, like I said, I was referring to Colt's original intent for the wedge. I can read a patent, I can understand a patent and I can pass on what I interpret from that patent. You've really added ZILCH to this discussion in the form of facts, other than your opinion, which is yours to give, I guess, but it means little to me.
 
MCgunner

That's OK MCgunner. I'm glad you did bring it up. That little chunk of metal has always been sort of a mystery to me. But now that I have a Colt and have read these posts, I do have a little better understanding of it. However it appears to me that the wedge is a vulnerable point for potential problems. After I shoot it some more I may change my mind, but I expect Remys will always be my favorite. BTW a Ruger would be nice, but unfortunately they are a bit pricey for me right now.
 
However it appears to me that the wedge is a vulnerable point for potential problems.

Nah, it just needs fitting if a new one is to be installed. It has always struck me as a cheap jury rigged way of attaching a barrel, though. I mean, it's kinda stupid lookin' there and looks like a British Petroleum fix to the need to keep the barrel on the gun. :D It may be stupid looking, but it is effective. It works. And, i got used to it after a while.



I hate to brag....well, no I don't.....but I probably gave less for my ROA than you did your Navy. I picked it up when a local gun shop was selling out of BP stuff, $97.50. Even 18 years ago, I couldn't get a C note out of my wallet fast enough, LOL. Back when I got my stainless one in 1980, they were running something around 300 bucks IIRC. That one got stolen. I am STILL POed about that, but it's why I was looking for another when I stumbled into the blued one I have now. I can't recall ever finding a deal that good in a friggin GUN SHOP. I mean, I still brag about it when the subject of best gun deals you ever made comes up. :D Now days, i go to gun broker and look at ROAs and I have to lay down to get the blood circulation back to my head. :rolleyes:
 
From what I've read here, I believe my wedge fits as well as can be expected for an Italian replica. And I'm reasonably certain that pressure exerted by the hand spring is causing the cylinder not to spin freely. I'll be looking at that more closely later, since my Remys does spin freely. I know I shouldn't compare the two since they're two different kinds of animals. As I said in a earlier post the cylinder spins freely on the arbor when I tried it with the gun disassembled and the cylinder not engaged by the hand. The only other concern I have is I have to force the barrel from the frame using the loading lever. I'll probably have to work on the two pins with some 800 grit sandpaper.
 
Now that we have come full circle, the hand spring is a tiny little spring and I really doubt that is the cause of the cylinder not freely spinning. By 'freely spinning' do you mean like a bicycle wheel, or you find it difficult to turn by hand? The hand will always be engaged in the ratchet and you can hear it click as it snaps over each segment. How much gap is between the cylinder and the barrel? The wedge should not be the 'adjuster' for the barrel gap. If it is, then it indicates that the arbor is not properly fitted to the barrel.
 
When I say spinning freely I mean like a bicycle wheel. Now, with the gun fully assembled and with the hammer down, there is no visible barrell to cylinder gap. And like wise at half cock, but I can manually move the cylinder back on the arbor (towards the hammer) and use a feeler gage and measure .008 inch gap. But when I release the cylinder the hand spring forces the hand against the cylinder moving it back forward against the forcing cone thus preventing it from free wheeling. However I can easily turn it clockwise with little effort and the hand is engaged in the ratchet and you can hear it clicking.
Hey, I just noticed that there are tiny dents in the bottem of the notches on the back of the cylinder where the hand comes to rest. This tells me that it has to be the pressure exserted by the hand spring keeping it from free wheeling.
 
Generally speaking with an average strength handspring and with the hammer at half cock the cylinder will be pushed forward into contact with the barrel. With the hammer down against the nipple the cylinder will also be pushed forward. B/C gap is always checked holding the cylinder back against the recoil shield and .008 is about right. You won't get the free wheeling spin of say a well tuned Colt SAA with this design. Colt didn't incorporate a gas ring into the open top design untill the 1872. Pohill will probably find a patent to refute this but that is the way it is.
 
denster is right again, and the reproduction Colt cap & ball revolver in question is behaving as it should. Unless the hand spring is broken, the cylinder won't turn counter-clockwise while the hammer is at half-cock, and because of the hand & spring, turning it clockwise requires minor effort, and it goes click, click, click. The cylinder is not supposed to spin like a bicycle wheel.

The hand should push the cylinder forward against the barrel, but the pressure shouldn't be enough to prevent the cylinder from turning when the hammer is cocked. If you hold the cylinder fully rearward and have a mesured cylinder/barrel gap of .008" you're good to go. This observation is true concerning all Colt cap & ball era revolvers, and modern reproductions thereof.

Fact is, NCWanderer never had a problem in the first place. I hope he gets over this and enjoys his Colt-style revolver. Incidentally, if he goes to a Remington reproduction he will find that so far as the cylinder turning at half-cock and the barrel/cylinder gap; both designs work the same way. ;)
 
Actually, as stated in my first post I wasn't sure there was a problem, but was courious. And the reason for my couriosity was the fact that my Remy does spin resonably freely at half cock, but not like a bicycle wheel.
It does seem to shoot ok. As for accuracy, I don't know. I've been told these guns normally shoot about 10 inches high. I'll see what this one does the next time I shoot it. My Remy shoots about 4 inches low and 1 1/2 to the left. I know I can bring that POI up by filing the front sight just a tad. Just haven't done it yet. Time will tell, maybe I'll learn to like this Colt better. I do think it's a good looking gun and after I've shot it as much as I've shot my Remy......who knows.
 
While the Remington design does turn easier, both it and the Colt work the same way. Next time you have a chance to examine the back of the cylinders of each, notice the difference in the ratchet design. The teeth in the Remington are shallower and wider.

This could be good and bad. Because of the remington's topstrap and ratchet, some Civil War officers complained that after more then six shots the cylinder had to be hand-assisted to turn.
 
Old Fuff

Well these 2 BP guns should satisfy my addition for a while. Already saving my pennies for another.:D I'm thinking about a Spiller & Burr. What's you opinion of one of those as a shooter?
 
I'm thinking about a Spiller & Burr. What's you opinion of one of those as a shooter?

They have an excellent reputation among serious target shooters, but I haven't had any personal experience.
 
I'm thinking about a Spiller & Burr. What's you opinion of one of those as a shooter?

The Spiller&Burr handles much like the Remington you currently own, a bit lighter. The frame is smaller and the barrel shorter than the 1858. It is a brass frame revolver that should be used with lighter load. The S&B being a .36 should handle 16-18gr loads with no problems. Larger loads may cause peening of the recoil shield. You well start to see a indentation of the ratchet assemble on the recoil shield. I'm just starting to see this after thirty years of shooting, and more than a few loads have been in the 22gr or higher area.
 
I've had a Spiller & Burr for about a year now. It has a strong
mainspring which seems to eliminate misfires. Built like a tank.
It doesn't have safety notches or pins but I think some of them do.
I'd recommend it as a first BP gun over any others. Care must be
taken to always check to make sure the arbor/rammer assembly
is locked before shooting it. Almost made that mistake once. Not sure
what would happen if left unlocked. Does anyone know?
 
Ah, come on. If you hold a grudge in any way, then you're taking it too seriously. For all you know, I'm a computer generated response.
 
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