Another constant-newbie Q: breech-end cleaning?

[yhtomit]

(Actually, one question -- Why is it so important to clean from the breech end? -- with a bunch of subquestions.)

I've seen many (many!) exhortations to clean firearms from the breech-end only, not from the muzzle end. My understanding is that this is to prevent damage to the crown. I've tried therefore to follow this advice. I'm confused as to why this should be a big worry, though.

When I clean the barrel of an autopistol, it's detached from the gun, and it's easy to clean from the breech end -- that is, to start the cleaning brush / patch from that end. However, some part of the brush will emerge from the muzzle end, and then be retracted as I withdraw the brush / jag. Sometimes, I push the brush all the way out before pulling it all the way back down the barrel; have I committed some offense against the gun thereby?

I understand that a boresnake could be used to clean my revolver, but I haven't yet bought one. I've cleaned it after every one of its too-few range sessions, and, seeing no other way, ran the brush and patches from the muzzle end.

So: I'm sure there's some good reason, but I will admit I've never grasped why it matters. As long as I don't bang the crown with the rod, where is the potential for danger? Why does it matter whether I start the brush from the breech end rather than the muzzle end? If it truly is rod-crown contact that's the potential problem (am I wrong about that?), couldn't that be cured by the doo-dad I've seen called something like a "muzzle guide," or "muzzle saver"? (I don't think I dreamed that.)

Pushing it one step further, even if I *do* bang the crown with the rod, are crowns so fragile that they could be more than trivially affected by such contact? The barrels of my guns are all of pretty strong metal Does it matter whether I'm using a multi-piece aluminum rod rather than a single-piece one? Metal vs. Plastic? I guess I could see the danger of pulling a jointed-aluminum one sharply against the edge of the crown, but what about the plastic rod that came with my Cz?

And what about muzzle loaders? Aren't they cleaned from the muzzle end, and face regular punishment / indignities of all kinds besides from the muzzle end?

Gentle replies appreciated!

timothy

 

[NeoSpud]

Although I've been shooting all my life, compared to most of the members here I know nothing, so any advice I give should be taken with a large dose of salt

That being said, I've almost always cleaned my rifles -including muzzleloaders- from the muzzle. My cleaning rods are all aluminum, and I take care to not let the rod slide against the crown (I pinch the rod between my fingers while they're firmly set against the muzzle). As you mentioned, there are slip-on devices that you can use to make sure this doesn't happen, but I've yet to need one (or at least think I needed one )

Of course, it should be mentioned that the majority of my rifles are either military surplus (SKS's, AKs), or really well worn to the point that I doubt it matters (e.g., a fairly old 10/22 that had significant muzzle wear already when it was given to me). I suppose that if I had really expensive, sub-MOA precision firearms that I used competitively (or even just at ranges greater than 200 yards), then I'd do things differently.

That's just one young shooter's opinion, YMMV

 

[Gator]

This is a bigger concern with rifles, and it is not the crown that is the problem, it is the first bit of rifling at the muzzle that gets worn away. This causes a drop in accuracy. Cleaning rods, especially aluminum ones, can become embedded with dirt and grit; this can wear away at the muzzle. Muzzle damage from cleaning is usually worst on military rifles, since having a shiny bore for inspection is more important than worrying about wearing out the muzzle! Using a bore guide helps a great deal.

 

[bogie]

Guys, there's accuracy, and then there's ACCURACY.

Most of you have no idea what real rifle accuracy means. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

The critical part on the crown isn't the outside. It isn't the inside. It's the edge. If anything is uneven, the tiniest bit, it imparts increased wobblies.

It isn't about grit becoming embedded - it's about aluminum oxide, which is (a) hard; and (b) since it's hard, it acts as a good abrasive - may feel smooth - did I say "coarse abrasive?" NO! But smooth is just as bad if it is uneven. So don't use aluminum. Even if they do sell 'em at Wal-Mart.

Finally... Most pistols: Who cares? Most shotguns - heck - all shotguns: Who cares? Most rifles: Try to be gentle. If you can, clean from the back, and not let the non-brass parts bang into steel stuff. Let the solvent do the work. Stainless steel brushes will make you buy new barrels...

 

[Z71]

Soldiers across the world are renowned for cleaning their muskets like a fiddler playing his fiddle!

Stroke that cleaning rod in and out enough times from the muzzle, and can lead to pretty extreme wear!

I don't know, but believe that while throat erosion of the bore is from shooting, muzzel enlargement/wear is a cleaning issue.

 

[yhtomit]

Thanks for these answers! I'm getting the impression that if I use a solid rod, a muzzle protector (or fingers held in place to prevent contact) and am careful, I need not fear instant, performance-degrading harm to my S&W 625 despite pushing the brush in from the muzzle end.

With a muzzle protector, I will finally clean the long-neglected barrel of my Ruger 22/45, too -- unlike every other one of my autopistols, that one I am not interested in breaking down even for cleaning without someone nearby who's done it before.

timothy

 

[Clipper]

It isn't about grit becoming embedded - it's about aluminum oxide, which is (a) hard; and (b) since it's hard, it acts as a good abrasive - may feel smooth - did I say "coarse abrasive?" NO! But smooth is just as bad if it is uneven. So don't use aluminum. Even if they do sell 'em at Wal-Mart.

Bunk.

The oxides of aluminum that are used as abrasives are altogether different than those that form on a cleaning rod. How about a little money-where-your-mouth-is type experiment? Cut yourself a hunk of old screen door, well oxidized, and try to sharpen your lawnmower blade...Get back to me when you get that done, eh? I don't care how oxidized it is, an aluminum cleaning rod, too soft to register on the Rockwell scale, will gouge and give way to the 4140 steel at around Rockwell 36-40 that makes up most modern gun barrels.

These wive's tales have their basis in the fact that crowns of military rifles get ragged out by the STEEL cleaning rods that they're equipped with. If you keep the rod a substantially softer material than the barrel, and avoid using metal tips to avoid damaging the breech, bolt or firing pin (or otherwise protect them) when the rod pops out of the bore, you, like me, can happily clean lever actions, revolvers and pumps for evermore without damaging the crowns.

 

[bogie]

But I'm not sharpening a lawn mower blade.

Bow a cleaning rod, just a little, and it's gonna rub. And those aluminum rods _will_ tear up several hundred dollars worth of perfect good select match stainless steel barrel in a few uses. If you're consistent in your screw up, the damage is QUITE apparent with use of either a decent magnifier/microscope or bore scope. I've seen throats where folks ignored using a bore guide, and an aluminum wally-world rod, and the rifling's just fine on one side... And burnished away on the other...

If those screw-apart cleaning rods were so darn good and safe to use, then a lot of competitive benchresters, who already have enough gear to cart around, thank you very much, would be using them. They aren't. And you couldn't pay one of 'em to use one in a perfectly good competitive barrel.

 

[Tom488]

I don't care how oxidized it is, an aluminum cleaning rod, too soft to register on the Rockwell scale, will gouge and give way to the 4140 steel at around Rockwell 36-40 that makes up most modern gun barrels.

So why do carbide-tipped saw blades dull from cutting wood? Ever use a chain saw with dull teeth? How'd they get that way? Doubtful it was from grinding against a harder surface.

 

[XDKingslayer]

If those screw-apart cleaning rods were so darn good and safe to use, then a lot of competitive benchresters, who already have enough gear to cart around, thank you very much, would be using them. They aren't. And you couldn't pay one of 'em to use one in a perfectly good competitive barrel.

Or are they all buying into the the same myth?

I'd really like to know. Tom makes a very good point that wood can dull a saws blade, however cleaning rods aren't jammed down a gun barrel 36 kajillion times at 2000 RPM either.

 

[Walkalong]

Clean from the breech if at all possible. Use a one piece rod of your choice and a bore guide. keep everything clean. If we damage to crown even a little we start losing accuracy.

Now. Where that accuracy level starts varies greatly. Some rifles will shoot 1/8" MOA, or better, so that little tiny bit of damage hurts, some shoot 1" MOA, so we dont see it as quickly because at 1/8" a little shows more vs 1" etc. The 3" MOA rifle will get worse, but who notices and who cares really.

If a Benchrest gun can't shoot zero's in a calm with a good load, your screwed. I imagine it is similar in 1000 yd highpower. That's a long dang way and any little thing is magnified greatly.

 

[The Annoyed Man]

Personally, on my rifles I use a single piece carbon fiber rod that's coated to protect the bore, AND I use bore guides, and I always clean from the breech end. But call it blind dumb luck that nobody ever had to teach me that. It just seemed like common sense to me at the time.

But I do have a question... Given that those aluminum cleaning rods are supposed to be softer than the bore of the rifle, isn't also possible that bore/rifling damage from contact with an aluminum rod could be due to defects in the steel of the barrel? Just curious.