Another dog run in, this one deadly

[Malice]

Alright, first some background. I am cautious about dogs. I love them in general and I love mine, but I think most people underestimate their potential to act irrational (from a human perspective) and their capability to cause damage.

I am home from college for the summer, and staying with my parents. They/we live in a very nice suburb. $400k-3mil homes, no crime, etc.

In college working out was easy but now I have to juggle 11 hour work days, meeting with other friends who are home from college, and working out. I decided the best way for me to go about it is to run at night (as in after dark) to tire me out before bed and my 5am alarm clock. Also, it is HOT when the sun is up.

So I was out running last night, after dark. I left my house at 9 or so and it was around 9:30 when I hear a wierd noise. I was passing by one of the community pool/playgrounds and I hear a rustling noise so I stopped in the parking lot to stretch and casualy see what was up. I half expected it to be two kids making out or somthing.

I am looking down stretching, and when I straighten and look up, there is a very large dog standing about 20 yards from me, standing in an aggressive posture. I could not tell what kind of dog, because it was dark. So I calmy look in it's direction but not directly aty it and try to see if it has a leash hanging off it or if there is an owner nearby. There isnt. And because I was mostly ignoring the dog, who was very obviously posturing, it started to bark at me, and the tone of it was an obvious challenge.

Then I decided it was time to get out of dodge. I slowly walked away, back towards my house which was about a half mile away. It kept barking but did not move a muscle except its neck and head to follow me with its eyes. So about 1 minute later and not much closer to home, a middle aged woman and her ~35 lbs dog pass by. I call out to her and wave and she looks confused until she takes her ipod earphones out (ugh... a woman walking after dark with headphones, totaly unaware, even in this neghiborhood... :banghead: ). I tell her it looks like a stray dog is shacked up down the road, and to be carefull. She akwardly thanks me (obviously thinking "who cares?") and goes on. I keep walking the other way and about a minute later I hear the stray barking, her dog barking, the tones getting more agressive, and then the lady shrieking.

I turn around and run back (which sucks because I am out of shape and totaly tired) as fast as I can and eventualy see the woman about 4 feet away from the stray yelling (but oddly not very loudly) as the stray has her much smaller dog by the back of the neck, attmepting to break its neck, shaking it viciously. The little one was putting up an impressive fight, however.

So as I close in, with adrenaline kicking in, I make a wierd decision that might have been stupid. At full speed as I closed in (I played soccer in elementary school ) I gave the big stray the hardest midfield pray-for-a-goal kick in the ribs I can. As I connect, I hear a greally gross snapping sound and the same sound a kickboxing bag makes when you kick it. The stray immedieatly releases its hold on the other dog, yelps, and bolts off towards a levee.

The Aftermath

The woman was VERY shaken up, crying and all. After the stray ran off, she got herself sort of collected and ran to a friends house that loved about 5 houses down. She called the police and I waited with her and tried to comfort her dog, whom she couldnt bring herself to touch. It was a beautiful collie, not yet fullgrown. It was torn up pretty bad. Its neck was not broken but it was bleeding and I could see the bite marks were very deep. It was out of breath and just sort of lay there whimpering. It was very sad.

Her friend had called her husband and he showed up about the same time as the police. They asked me a few questions and then told be I could go, and before the woman (Linda) and her husband left to go to the emergency animal hospital, she asked for my cell number and told me she could update me. She even gave me a hug.

Well I got the call today and she said it wasnt for sure yet, but the vet had advised them to put the dog to sleep. Very sad. She offered to take me out to dinner to thank me and I said sure. Next weekend. I also went and got checked for rabies. Doc said there is almost no chance that I could have gotten any by the way I described touching the dog, but the results will be in on teusday.

Well?

Here is how I see it. I did some things wrong, and she was totaly screwed up the whole time. She was paying NO attention to anything. None. When the stray attacked, she stood there. I didnt expect her to jump into the fray, but she should have RUN.

Me on the other hand...
-Getting physicaly involved could have gotten me hurt. It wasnt a logical decision, I just did it.
-I could have offered to walk with her, but I think thats more creepy than knowing there is a stray dog on the road in this day and age. Unfortunate.
-I realized that if the woman had been the one attacked, I know no first aid or CPR. I need to get on that.
-I have OC spray. I leave it at home when I run.
-I have an EDC knife. Also at home when I run.
-Have a cell. You guessed it. At home.
-I do not have a CHL yet, one year to go. But if I did, I imagine it would have been at home and not in the pocket of my running shorts.
-Worst of all, as I attended to the hurt dog (or tried to) It didnt even cross my mind that the stray could have been rabid.

It was an exciting saturday night, to say the least. I feel bad for the dog, bad for the owner, but I cant help but feeling good that I helped. I think when she takes me out to dinner, I will (not criticaly) give her some tips on awareness and suggest she carries her cell and gets some OC.

What do you think?

 

[Quaamik]

Actually, considering the WHOLE situation, your getting physicly involved was a good decision. With the other options being:

Watch: Her dog gets mangled, then maybe her, then maybe it goes after you.
Run: Her dog gets mangled, then maybe her. Or maybe it drops her dog and goes after you.
Try to drag her away: He dog gets mangled, or maybe it drops her dog and goes after the two of you.

Next time, carry something to defend yourself.

 

[Oleg Volk]

A good belt allows Kahr P9 or similar be carried comfortably when jogging. A couple of small weights (1 pounders) offer exercise AND an improvised impact weapons in case of need.

 

[bigdaddyb]

Your willingness to 'get involved' was the honorable thing to do. Honor is a fading virtue in today's society.

No criticism here. We can never predict when we'll be forced to defend ourselves or an innocent. You handled the situation well, IMO.

 

[Cosmoline]

Kicking's certainly a better option that grabbing. A stick would have been better, but you didn't have a stick. The kick, however, brings the same general principle of pushing the dog AWAY while hurting it, instead of getting close to it to stab or grab it. I have serious doubts whether spray would have done bo diddly.

 

[dev_null]

Looks to me like you "done good." Take the dinner with good conscience.

 

[esheato]

I think this is the perfect opportunity to convert an anti...or what seems like an anti.

Would it be appropriate to buy some pepper spray for her as a gift? Give her a push in the right direction? I mean, seeing her dog get nearly killed had to have got her thinking about self-defense. Why not take that next step for her and bring her to our side?

Every person counts...

Ed

 

[Cosmoline]

How is getting her pepper spray bringing her to our side?

 

[ZenMasterJG]

Cosmoline
IMHO anything that makes people realize that there are options for self defense is good for us. I recently made a comment in front of friends when we were talking about a news story, something along the lines of "And thats why i'm getting my CHL as soon as I move out of the dorms." They were mostly curious, since they *didn't know* you could get one in the state of MA.

Malice: Ya done good. Might be a good idea to bring something with which you can defend yourself. Glad you're all ok. Musta been a heck of a kick!

 

[CubDriver]

Sounds like you did great. I have the same problem as you; I have gotten involved in some things that afterward didn’t seem like the smartest thing to do, but in each case I feel that if I hadn’t, something worse may have happened to some one else. I live in the dorms at school (so I can't carry my CCW) and like you, run after dark. I have dealt with drunks all the time when running, and it’s been a non-issue for me until I ran into some one on meth whom took offence to me using his path. I didn’t quite end up in the hospital, but I wasn’t on the winning end for sure (until the police arrived). Now I run with a Monadnock baton. It’s a great counter weight for the flashlight in the other hand, and not very conspicuous until you want it to be, and when you get some training with it, it’s a great tool. In Oregon its legal for me to carry one, but that’s not the case in all states.

Once again, good job and congratulations.

-David

 

[oldelm]

Malice..............I would echo what others have already said and commend you for trying to help the woman and her dog. It's too bad the smaller dog had to fall victim to the agressive dog that was obviously looking for trouble that night. I know dogs are only dogs , and who knows what goes through their minds on their own, or whether their agression is partly instilled by their owners,...but I'll say one thing,....I don't like bullying,.....from dogs,.. or their owners. I carry pepper spray in the glove box of my truck, and had the opportunity to "test" it on a dog one time a few yrs back. I pulled into a little public plaza to go into a store,and just as I was opening my door there was a dog standing there looking up at me, growling with the hair raised on its back ,...it started barking very agressively,...I said to myself,...well, there's no better time than this to see how this pepper spray works on a SOB dog that thinks he's king of the Plaza,( its owner was in the laundramat). I grabbed the spray,opening the door and let loose one long, strong shot right into the dogs face as he was no more than 4 ft. away. I swear, I've never seen a dog shut up, gag, back down & run away as fast as he did!! Ha! Ha!

I can't say pepper spray will work on every dog,...as dogs can vary,.... as people do,....but I highly recommend pepper spray for dogs, and I'd highly recommend you carry it while running. By their very nature, dogs are attracted to run after their prey,.....especially when something is running , dogs are instinctively drawn to persue and attack,...and when they're with other dogs,....it's even more so.
Anyway,.....you did good to help that woman & her dog out

 

[esheato]

How is getting her pepper spray bringing her to our side?

Obviously, this woman has never contemplated self-defense. She has no phone, pepper spray, flashlight or gun on her person. Items that most of us carry as routinely as car keys.

She's in condition white.

A tramautic experience opens her eyes to how unpredictable life can be. She reviews her actions in the melee...her inability to do anyting to save her dog. She thinks about how helpless she was while she stood there shrieking. If she had reacted differently, she could have directly impacted the outcome.

How could she have done things differently? Enter Malice with some self-defense tips and pepper spray...thereby enabling her to defend herself and possibly her pet from further harm.

At that point she has started down the road to self-sufficiency. Going from helpless to hero in the blink of an eye. Self-sufficiency is a trait that I believe all THR members desire. The ability to act and stop a threat rather than simply screaming and waiting for the cops or a gallant neighbor.

I'd say it is worth the $15 on the off chance that she takes responsibility for herself, wouldn't you?

Ed

 

[LAK]

A hearty well done!

And I suspect the lady will change her attitude - and habits. Sad it cost her her dog to wake up.

----------------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[Jim March]

YOU DONE GOOD. Period. That thing would have eaten her next, no question in my mind.

And that was a hell of a kick. Getting a dog to back down via pure pain is uncommon, you have to do real damage. You may have killed that thing...which would be GOOD.

Now go get a small fanny pack and carry the knife, OC *and* cellphone. A knife is a very effective weapon against a dog, either via a throat-shot or "icepick grip" straight down through the skull. Take a look at a dog's skull some time - there is a strong central ridge that can defeat unbelievable impacts but the bone shelf to either side is surprisingly thin. You want a knife with a good grip that resists "slip ups" (hand moving down the blade on a hard stab) and a good lock (BM Axis or equivelent).

And I agree with others: OC is a step along the mindset towards self defense and the RKBA. Score her some and talk to her about situational awareness, discuss the issue of CCW in mild terms . OC also doesn't require the mindset committment of a knife which in my opinion needs to be even higher than that for a gun.

 

[Cosmoline]

A knife is a very effective weapon against a dog, either via a throat-shot or "icepick grip" straight down through the skull. Take a look at a dog's skull some time - there is a strong central ridge that can defeat unbelievable impacts but the bone shelf to either side is surprisingly thin. You want a knife with a good grip that resists "slip ups" (hand moving down the blade on a hard stab) and a good lock (BM Axis or equivelent).

Jim--I have to disagree strongly with you. I've done helper work with GSD's, broken up many serious dog fights and been around big dogs with big teeth for many years. Using a KNIFE is the last resort only and should only be used if you're already on the ground and have nothing else. It requires you to get down to the level of the dog, and to expose your face, neck, arm and hand to counter attack. If you think you're fast enough to get a hit in on the soft spot of the dog's skull when it's attacking you, you're dead wrong. The attack PUTS YOUR HAND RIGHT NEXT TO THE DOG'S MAIN WEAPON. That's a very, very, very BAD IDEA. Your hand bones are no match for a full bite from even a medium size mutt, let alone large dog with fully developed jaws. By the time you started sticking your hand down "ice pick" style it would be

BAM

BAM

BAM BAM BAM

and you'll realize at about that point that the dog's torn your hand up, corn cobbed your forearm and probably launched into your neck and face. I wouldn't try the knife-to-brain method with an old dog being put down, let alone some crazed stray with his blood up. One reason dog attacks can cause so much damage or even kill is people simply have no clue how effective a fighter fido can be. They're used to play fighting with their own dog or at most a little bit of uppity behavior from a neighborhood dog. But a dog on the warpath, with his blood up, is a whole different animal.

Take my advice on this. KEEP YOUR DISTANCE FROM THE DOG AND USE YOUR HEIGHT AND LEVERAGE ADVANTAGES! That means throw something at it, and if that doesn't work use a stick if possible then a club then your foot. If you have no other option and must use your hands, grab the scruff and tail and toss the dog away from you. All attacks should be designed to get the dog further away from you, not to bring it closer so you can knife it or whatever. And as any sled dog owner can tell you, when the fur is flying you NEVER EVER EVER put your hands towards the business end. Your typing days will come to a sudden and violent end that way.

 

[dfaugh]

Ah yes the old "soccer kick" maneuver...MUCH better and safer that trying to seperate 2 dogs fighting, which'll get you bit (speaking from experience)...Now, while that was very good move, realize that it also might have caused the dog to turn its attention on YOU. (Having said that, I woulda probably done the same thing.)

The problem with pepper spray, a stick, or any other non-lethal means, is that you may cause a dog that otherwise WON'T come after you, to do so. They have a self defence drive/fighting drive, too. (Now in this case, we KNOW the dog was a danger, so doing something, was probably better than nothing). My point is, even though you think a dog is "threatening", don't be too quick to whip out with the pepper spray or whatever. Alot of dogs will posture, bark and LOOK aggressive (especially if you're not real familiar with dog behavior), but when push comes to shove, they'll run.

I've bred and trained (GSDs) for Schutzhund Sport for years(retired due to health problems), and worked with dogs (of different breeds as well) and trainers from all over the world. Generally, we're talking what most people would consider "tough" dogs... Most however would NEVER initiate a fight (usless they were protecting their owner, perhaps) but God forbid you start a fight with one of them.

Case in point: I have a 98 lb. Czech/W. German dog that was my top competition dog. He LOOKS very intimidating (he's a bi-color--mostly black)...But becasue of the way he's been trained, he thinks that most people were put on the earth to play with him. He might run up on you, and he might bark (to get your attention) and some would think he's being aggressive. IF at that point you did something to him, that he considered aggressive (like try to kick, or maybe pepper spray) you're gonna get more than you bargained for. I would even bet the kinda kick you delivered to the stray, wouldn't even slow him down (just pi$$ him off---ALOT)...I say this because when I was training him, we were working him, in protection, with an $1800 German Teletac electric collar (because he didn't even respond to the best American made one I had)...And, even while being zapped CONTINOUSLY, he still didn't stop the behavior we were trying to correct. He WILL fight you, if you start something....

Had another BIG GSD that was as mellow as they come, loved people...titles in Schutzhund and AKC obedience before he was 2... Had a bitch here for him to breed, when I first moved in, only had a temporary 4 ft. fence. Somehow, she scaled the fence, and he went after her...Over to neighbors where they were raking leaves...This dog had been around literally thousands of people, loved eveyone, but he would bark to get your attention (did it to me all his life)... Apparently he barked at the neighbor, who promptly hit him in testicles with a rake...VERY bad idea...needless to say the neighbor got bit (but the dog only bit his hand---just enough to stop him from hitting him again---dog was easily big enough and powerful enough to kill him, as he was a small guy about 80 yrs old)...

I'm rambling, but my point is, not every dog you encounter is a threat, even though they may seem to be acting that way. And be careful what you do so that you don't escalate the situation beyond what's necessary. I'm usually inclined to chase that sucker into the next county, but I can read them well. Don't try this at home!

 

[meef]

Cosmoline:

One reason dog attacks can cause so much damage or even kill is people simply have no clue how effective a fighter fido can be.

Take my advice on this. KEEP YOUR DISTANCE FROM THE DOG AND USE YOUR HEIGHT AND LEVERAGE ADVANTAGES! That means throw something at it, and if that doesn't work use a stick if possible then a club then your foot. If you have no other option and must use your hands, grab the scruff and tail and toss the dog away from you.

Hey... you must have missed the recent thread where sticking your freaking fist down the dog's throat was advocated....

Ha.

My money's on your advice. I've dealt with dogs, and the last place I'm purposely putting any of my anatomy in is the shredder.

 

[V4Vendetta]

"Now go get a small fanny pack and carry the knife, OC *and* cellphone."


I agree with that advice. Give the lady the phone to call help, use the OC at a distance & the knife to the neck of the dog if you have to. But you did good in helping a damsel in distress. I'm proud of ya. When you can, get a CCW. I've already decided that since I bike everywhere I can, I'm gonnna need one in case of dogs, muggers, etc. If I get attacked by a dog in the next 4 years before I can legally CCW, I'll just bike everywhere with a rifle slung over my shoulder. That'll at least give me a oportunity to preach gun info to the people who look at me funny.

 

[1911Tuner]

Dog

Pointy stick...5 feet long...1/2 to 5/8ths inch diameter. Easy to carry on a walk or jog. Point it at the dog. Dog bites down on the end. Shove the stick straight in, clear out his wazoo. Yank sideways hard to snap it off even with the muzzle, and let Hulk Hogandawg figure out how to solve his new problem.

Walk away.

 

[SSN Vet]

+1....

for the drop kick technique!!

 

[the naked prophet]

Smart Carry. You can carry a gun and a reload or cell phone, and appear to be wearing nothing but gym shorts and a smile

 

[Cosmoline]

I'm rambling, but my point is, not every dog you encounter is a threat, even though they may seem to be acting that way. And be careful what you do so that you don't escalate the situation beyond what's necessary. I'm usually inclined to chase that sucker into the next county, but I can read them well. Don't try this at home!

Agreed. And the best way to call fido's bluff is to stay tall and use your brain. Most attacking dogs don't know how to deal with a smack with a stick or a good kick. They're hoping you run so they get a sucker bite. But hey if you get close and BEND OVER to poke a sharp shiny thing at their head, you're transforming yourself from a big tall human man to a rival dog with a tooth. You shrink in their eyes--literally--and become a much more viable target. This is doubly true if they're already in a serious dog fight.

Now there is a small percentage of dogs, very small, who will not be impressed with a kick or a stick. But these tend to be trained and are the least likely dogs to be running around feral. Even among protection dogs they're rare, and if you're getting attacked by one it's most likely because you're a criminal trying to do something bad.

 

[Jim March]

Hmmm.

It's true that the way to stare a dog down is to stand tall. But once it's "on" there's generally no more bluffing going to happen until some pain is delivered.

In this specific case, the dog isn't focused on the human coming on from the side. That's when a skull-shot might be practical.

Next: an untrained dog attacking a person will jump up at your throat. That's when he's most vulnerable to a knife-based defense at his throat or chest.

A trained dog wants to grab something and pull. And that's when HE is vulnerable, except one that is *well* trained will pull back at that point and try and re-engage...they're paranoid about anything floating overhead (overhead strike) or coming into the throat.

The classic defense is to wrap something around your off forearm, feed it that and then stab it in the throat when it locks on. Untrained will lock, trained will disengage and come back.

As stated, running into a trained dog is unlikely unless you're a career goblin. That's a good thing.

 

[Cosmoline]

Just looking at my dog's head, I think you'd have a devil of a time getting purchase on the brain pan with anything this side of a full bayonet. The "thin" parts of the skull are thin and concave because enormous muscles ride there. Any knife blow will have to contend with these muscles and the slippery surface of the bone itself. That's assuming the dog doesn't nail your totally vulnerable hand as you move in. I think you're visualizing a dog biting the forearm in a death grip, but of course dogs have to be trained to do that. But real maulings happen far too fast for that kind of precise stabbing. If the dog does launch at your face and you've got no club or stick to fend it off, the best bet is NOT to reach out and stab at him, but to tuck your arms up and twist, using your HIPS AND SHOULDERS to bop the animal away, then kicking as a followup. Use your arms and hands to guard your head and face, not as weapons. They're horribly ineffective as weapons against an attacking dog--they just make nice targets.

 

[XLMiguel]

Good on you, young man. There's no such thing as a 'free education', but this time, at least, you didn't pay much of the cost. Did they ever find the stray?

Obviously, a few tools are in order (phone, OC, knife), and a good stick is a real good idea. The only time one shoud go unarmed into Paradise is when you're absolutely, positively sure that's where you are (suburban Houston don't qualify). As in most self-defense situations, distance is your friend. Often, a smart rap across the muzzle is adequate discouragement, but if that doesn't work, the ability to hold 'em off or skewer 'em is a nice alternative.