Another Dog Shot... Since we have been discussing this...

[Joe Gunns]

I saw an incident similar to the one Travis McGee cites. Family down the street was packing up for a trip to the lake. The cute neighbor girl of 12 or so was playing kissy/licky face with small family dog through open car window. Dog bit her across the mouth puncturing and tearing both cheeks. Dog had been with family many years. So I concur with putting down any dog that shows aggressiveness toward people. I put down my buddy, a collie mix, when he showed aggression toward our daughter when she began to walk. Broke my heart, but was absolutely the right thing to do.
James

 

[Pilgrim]

At Erickson's request, no charges were filed against the dog's owner, said Orem police spokesman Lt. Doug Edwards. Vicious animal citations and letting dogs run free are misdemeanor offenses.

I don't think Mr. Erickson is doing the community any favors.

Pilgrim

 

[MikePGS]

Now actually here is a genuine question what caliber to shoot a pit bull in the head and drop it .50 seems there, but I am talking practical like maybe 5.7? What do you guys think?

During the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, some national guardsmen came across two pitbulls who, having had no food for some time were essentially feral at this point, and were in the process of attacking and killing a bull. The national guardsman shot one of the pitbulls in the head with his M16 rifle. When that didn't work, he shot it again which brought the animal down.
My point is that these dogs are very very tough. We have two (and contrary to popular opinion, they are both very sweet if somewhat protective animals) and one of them has ran into a very solid leather couch (the kind with rivets) at almost full speed making a noise loud enough to make my girlfriend and i wince with absolutely no effect whatsoever to the dog. I know running headfirst into a couch isn't the same thing as having a chunk of metal smashing into your skull when shot from a gun, but perhaps its somewhat indicative of what your up against. I'd imagine though that in spite of this a .357 mag would definitely do the job.

 

[Cosmoline]

I put down my buddy, a collie mix, when he showed aggression toward our daughter when she began to walk. Broke my heart, but was absolutely the right thing to do.

Ever heard of training? Oh well, too late now. Some people here seem to think any sign of aggression in a dog is some mark of cain. It isn't. Any good dog will be aggressive. The key is to learn how to control that aggression. If you can't deal with the reality that these are wolf cousins, you shouldn't be keeping them as pets. That means you should keep them under control and it also means it's pretty ignorant to shoot one for "showing aggression." There's a huge difference between "showing agression" (growling, posturing, asserting dominance) and mauling some kid.

Moreover, I've worked with dogs that probably would maul a kid to death and they're perfectly fine animals for pulling a sled. Most sled dogs are not kid safe. You keep them locked up like a firearm for the same reasons.

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

Cocker spaniels can be vicious! I still think its all about how you raise your dog. I have a huge german shepherd and not only would I trust my life with this dog, I would bet my life that this dog would never bite a little kid. Anytime he is around kids or other small dogs he looks like he is walking on egg shells. He knows he is big and strong, and would not even want to take a chance and step on a dog, for fear of him getting in twuble.

Whether it be a 2 year old child, or a 20 lb dog, either one could walk right up to him and snatch is treat, or eat out of his food bowl...Yank on his tail, pull his ears, or bite him, he'll just walk away.


Be an uninvited guest, or threaten me or mine...We'll thats a MUCH different story.

 

[Cosmoline]

IN VIOLATION OF THE LAW! If you like to go hiking, walking or jogging where you are likely to encounter other people, you are endangering them and your dog.

There's a difference between violating a leash law and endangering people. I trust you're not suggesting a bullet is the best way to deal with any violations of the law an armed citizen happens upon lol

 

[camslam]

Most sled dogs are not kid safe. You keep them locked up like a firearm for the same reasons.

Cosmo: Just a follow up to that item, we had a "domesticated" sled dog while I grew up. She was an Alaskan Malemute and was the best dog you could ask for. What was interesting about her, she would jump up on people in a playful way that were tall enough to be young adults or adults and sometimes knock them over because she was good sized, but anytime she was around small children the most she would do is put her paw out to "shake hands" or gently nuzzle them.

We use to worry she would knock over the little kids, but she was as gentle as could be. I've seen plenty of footage of "real" sled dogs and they can be pretty spirited and aggresive.

While I agree that training can make a big difference, in the end we all need to respect the fact that these are animals and they operate on instinct. A good reminder to constantly be prepared.

 

[roo_ster]

I pack a .357mag snubby stoked with Winchester 180gr Partitions while walking in the AM for this very reason. I want what I shoot to get perforated all the way through.

 

[springmom]

Quote:
I put down my buddy, a collie mix, when he showed aggression toward our daughter when she began to walk. Broke my heart, but was absolutely the right thing to do.
Ever heard of training? Oh well, too late now. Some people here seem to think any sign of aggression in a dog is some mark of cain. It isn't. Any good dog will be aggressive. The key is to learn how to control that aggression. If you can't deal with the reality that these are wolf cousins, you shouldn't be keeping them as pets.

You are assuming that the aggression shown was minor. He didn't say it was. He said it was the right thing to put the dog down. Maybe you could take him at his word that he knows the situation?

There's a difference between violating a leash law and endangering people.

Right up until the dog off leash attacks... Since you can't know that your dog will NOT attack, keeping them on leash is the right thing to do.

Besides, letting a dog run around off lead is an invitation to disaster for the dog in other ways. If he gets distracted and runs after a cat, a child, or a hamburger wrapper and ends up in front of a pickup going 40 mph, that's not a great outcome either.

Leash your dogs when they're out and about. For their sake, if nothing else.

Springmom

 

[Cosmoline]

Leash your dogs when they're out and about. For their sake, if nothing else.

I don't think anyone is saying dogs should be off leash and running around out of control. The question is what to do about it, since so many are off leash. I advocate a spectrum of responses depending on the exact situation. An off leash dog chasing your cows and biting their flanks likely warrants some work with the Mini-14. An off leash dog running around the street may not warrany anything more than taking it over to the neighbors and complaining. Or heck, just taking it. I've done that before myself and made the neighbor come get the thing.

 

[mbt2001]

I've shot MY OWN dogs before. Had a little Jack Russel Terrier that got mean with my nephew, then bit him, and I instantly took that little dog out into the back yard and put a 22 in his skull.

uhhhhh

I don't want to get into to much of an ethical discussion, but I must say that it is YOUR responsibility (morally and ethically) to train the dog. The dog does have a measure of "free will" and "judgment". Like children in many ways, we bear the burden of training the animal to accept our views, our "supremacy" in a sense.

Since you WANT the dog to bite SOME people, but not others, it is incumbent on YOU SIR to train the dog whom to bite and whom not to bite. Taking the dog outside and popping it for "getting snippy" with your nephew is against reason. The dog could merely have been defending his territory, correcting the kid (which dogs do with their mouth), so on and so on.

Let's hope society affords us more latitude than you did with your dog on issues wherein we "disagree" with the mores of the day.

 

[springmom]

don't think anyone is saying dogs should be off leash and running around out of control. The question is what to do about it, since so many are off leash. I advocate a spectrum of responses depending on the exact situation.

Not in this thread, true. The high priced lawyer on the other thread was openly saying he takes his out off lead on trails. Sorry for the thread confusion. Probably would have been easier to reference if the threads were merged, but that's all right.

I think the consensus is that people need to be responsible for their dogs, and people here are willing to do that, even to the point of putting down their own loved pet if they see behavior patterns that they believe are dangerous to their loved ones.

And I think that the majority of posters on both threads know perfectly well (1) how to differentiate between the neighbor's dog that wants some love and a dog that is set to attack, and (2) that if the attack dog has his five year old owner running three feet behind him, you don't unlimber your .357 and start blasting away. IOW, people do have some sense about this (well, most people).

Certainly circumstances dictate different responses; if I am alone I can more easily get control of the situation than if I've got two Irish terriers on leash with me. If it's late at night and we're the only ones on the street, that's different than if the entire under-18 population is out playing and walking around. I don't think anyone argues this.

Still, in the end, there is the question: will I hesitate to shoot a dog that is charging (attacking) as did the dog in this article, as have the dogs in other examples in the other thread? With the caveat that I will certainly gauge the backstop, the risk to others, and of course the risk the dog itself poses, I still maintain that if it is a matter of "I shoot the dog" or "I end up wounded, with long healing time and medical bills and trauma of my own" the dog is going to get shot.

Springmom

 

[Shane333]

I live in Spanish Fork, several miles south of Orem

I posted about this in the other thread about attacking pitbulls, but in summary I almost had the same experience, except that in my case the 1/2 pitbull mix went after my little girls first, and then decided to take me on when I got in its way. The only reason I didn't fire was that the owner's boy ran up to grab the dog and he would have been in my line of fire.

Except in my case I did file a police report, and so did several neighbors one week later. The owner got slapped with multiple charges/fines including owning a vicious animal and the dog is gone from the home.

This is the #1 reason why I carry: because of so many dog owners who are irresponsible, leaving their dogs out front unattended and off a leash.

 

[Piedmont Plinker]

Remember, dogs are animals and have instincts and feelings. You also cannot expect them to have as much discretion in use of force as a human. They evolved from wolves and will fight. My beagle bit my cousin want, and we punished her (the beagle, not the cousin) with a hard spanking, but we didn't kill the dog. Why? Because the cousin was petting it when it didn't want to be petted, when it was sleeping (let sleeping dogs lie). Becuase she was young she probably didn't recognize my dog's growling for what it was, but someone older would probably have, and would have stopped petting her. I'm not advocating being irresponsible with your dogs- you should get them "fixed", unless you plan to breed, you shouldn't let them out without a fence or leash, you should train them, but you should also take into account the fact that they are sentient beings themselvs, and have emotions and feelings. (this adresses the people who say any dog who bites anybody should be destroyed)
Now this here fella was completely justified in shooting this dog. It ran up and bit him on the butt, and he blasted it. I would've done it too. And he was right when he said that it presented a threat to the neighborhood, his wife, etc. I'm not necesarilly (how the heck do you spell this word?!) saying that the dog should be killed, but it definently should be punished somehow and be keept out of the front yard, in the backyard once the fence gets repaired. If the owner isn't willing to do this, he shouldn't be owning a dog.
Also, this could be a case of the dog sensing this guy as a threat to himself/the woman who was petting him. That's why he shouldn't nececariily (arggggghhhh) be killed. If he is usually a good dog, well behaved, not agressive, he should be punished bu given a second chance.

 

[JoshM]

Cosmoline

I doubt it would "skid off". But the brain is a small target and it would be easy to miss. Esp. on larger breeds there's a lot of muscle and hide around the head. So what you think is a brain shot may not be. This is another reason I prefer a club or spear over a sidearm for these sort of confrontations.

Agreed, when I was a kid, on the farm, I was taught that a "coup de grace" shot should always be "minute of earlobe". This being due to the fact that an animals head was flat, hard, and the round would "skid off". In retrospect, I reckon this old yarn was not due to my elders having an indepth knowledge of animal skull toughness, but rather they got better results of putting the round down the ear canal to the brain of sheep, cattle, etc.

Moreover, I've worked with dogs that probably would maul a kid to death and they're perfectly fine animals for pulling a sled. Most sled dogs are not kid safe. You keep them locked up like a firearm for the same reasons.

Pig dogs also fall into this category. I know guys who got rid of their pig dogs when they added children to the family. They are not kid safe.

Australia had a tragic case of a child killed by pig dogs. The problem in this case is that the owner was responsible and the dogs were chained and fenced.

 

[Claude Clay]

I have posted as to the closest i have ever come to shooting a 4-legged, but many has been the time that because i had 'the answer' in my pocket, the dog(s) did not smell fear on me ....this was enuf to confuse them as to who was alpha & make it into a stand-off, with them leaving me unharmed. No way I could have done that w/out a piece in my pocket to match my vocal commands(GO HOME GO AWAY ).go armed or go get stiches.

 

[Elm Creek Smith]

Why did the guy stop shooting? If something is worth shooting, it's worth shooting twice...at least. After retiring from the Army I was selling insurance and a guy turned his Rottweiler loose on me as I was walking back to my car. When I drew the Glock 23, the moron screeched, "Don't shoot my dog!" I told him if the dog wasn't called off, I wasn't particular who I shot, him or the dog, his choice. I didn't have to shoot anyone. He did threaten to call the Sheriff, and I told him to go ahead: the Sheriff was one of my best clients.

Our relatively new addition to the family, a terrier mix, snapped at my hand once. I sorta went alpha dog on her, swatted her right across the muzzle before she could move, and said, "No!" in my best low-pitched growl. She doesn't nip at anyone, now, and is never out of the house off the leash.

She does, however, growl and bark when someone comes to the door. We've had salespeople back up the sidewalk the length of the garage and wait for us to come to the door.

ECS

 

[frogomatic]

I should've gave a little more background I suppose...

to the folk who said I should've trained the dog. My dad trained many many hunting dogs, and I learned from him at a very early age. I train every dog I own, continually through their life, always have, and always will. No matter how much I train my dogs, there will be the occasional 'bad apple'. The little Jack was just such a dog. He had been very good for several years, and had played very well with my nephew every time they came to visit up untill then. The incident happend right at my feet. The two were playing, and in the blink of an eye the little russel started growling and rasied his hackles, at which point my little nephew got scared and started to back away, when he did the little russel went ape **** and attacked Jordan. I gave the dog a stern command to stop, and when he didn't respond, I pulled him off my nephew, launched him across the room only to have the little russel go right back after my nephew. At which point I grabbed the dog took him out and shot him. I was right there, and I know the attack on my nephew was unprovoked. When the dog refused to obey and continued after my nephew, I knew what had to be done. I would not risk somthing like this ever happening again. The dog HAD to be put down. I've only had to kill one other of my dogs, and that was a mercy kill to end his suffering, and I sure miss him.

 

[MrChicken]

I know that how a dog is raised and trained makes a huge difference and generally agree that aggressive dogs are poorly trained. At this point in time Pits are the exception. Unfortunately they are the dog that is selected by people that want an agressive or even a fighting dog.
At some point when you keep breeding the strongest and most aggressive dogs together, the problem is the dog. Hopefully the trend for Pits will stop and sensible breeders can again take control of the breed and the too aggressive strains of the breed will die out.

On the JR terrier comments I have personally swung my brothers JR on the end of a towel she wouldnt let go and didnt come loose. She was little by most standards, but with jaws that strong she could easily do severe damage to children.

I like and carry and 9mm, but a .45 would be less likely to just bounce off. It would have double the weight and would have a blunter profile in FMJ and more area for HP dig in. Not saying that it would penetrate where a 9mm would not, just that it would be more liekly to penetrate. Like others have said it's hard for me to understand why he fired just once.

Why did the guy not press charges, aside from what has been said, it may be that he was threatened. The neighbor has two Pits, just moved in, and too lazy to fix the fence. But he has 4 grand for vet bills? Makes me think he has a nonstandard source of income.

 

[Jeff F]

Here's one that recently happened in my neck of the woods.
http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200770917012



Loose pit bull attacks Tahoe police dog
JACLYN O ([email protected])
'MALLEY
[email protected]
September 17, 2007

An Eldorado County Sheriff’s Office police canine remains on the job following an on-duty weekend attack by a loose pit bull that was shot and killed by a deputy.

K-9 Riker, a 6-year-old patrol dog trained in sniffing out narcotics, suffered minor injuries stemming from Saturday afternoon’s attack in the Value Inn motel parking lot in South Lake Tahoe.

The Eldorado County District Attorney’s Office is reviewing the case and will determine if charges will be filed against the pit bull’s owner for having a dog at large or any other related charges.

Lt. Les Lovell, of the sheriff’s office, said the pit bull’s owner is a resident of the motel. Animal Control officials have had at least one interaction regarding this dog, Lovell said, but details were unknown.

Riker is expected to heal from his injuries, described as minor. He remained on the job since the attack.

Sheriff’s deputies had responded to the motel parking lot with city police to investigate a report of a man armed with a knife who was fighting with people. Riker was left inside the patrol car with the window down.

Lovell said the pit bull came out of nowhere and ran by the deputies and officers who were investigating the assault call. The pit bull had Riker’s neck in its mouth and was hanging from the patrol door.

Lovell said Riker’s handler came back to the car and ultimately shot the pit bull three times.

Lovell said it was unusual for the pit bull to charge Riker while he was inside the patrol car. He guessed Riker’s barking had caught the dog’s attention.

 

[Charles Foxtrot]

.
I live in SoKali, so a CCW is a very distant hope. So when I'm walking my two Shepherds, I carry "Muzzle" pepper spray. Recommended by my Postal worker neighbor; I figure she should know what's best. She used similar USPS stuff on a charging dog (a Ridgeback from her description.) She hit it in the face with a partial stream and the dog slammed to a stop like it had hit a wall. It then backed up, pawing at it's face, howling.

A dog hit with the spray has a terrible 15 minutes, then the pepper effect wears off without any permanent damage. Supposedly, this the canine pepper spray is stronger than what you are allowed to use on a local dirtbag.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

What is to stop you from using on a person?

 

[Charles Foxtrot]

"What is to stop you from using on a person?" I would think only that stupid warning label...

BTW, the hornet spray that shoots 30 feet... Suffice it to say, I'm deathly afraid of hornets when we're staying in our Kali State legal-gun-free parks.

 

[XLMiguel]

Pitbulls have huge heads, hard skulls

While I don't feature breed bigotry, Elm Creek hit it - Shoot until the threat is neutralized . . . . CCW 101, man or animal

Situational awareness and judgment (OODA), no easy answers (though chance favers the prepared mind), no guaranteed results. Ya pays yer money and takes yer chances. Good luck to all y'all.

 

[wayneinFL]

"There's a difference between violating a leash law and endangering people. "

I agree with springmom on this one. Why have a leash law if not to prevent dog owners from endangering people with their dogs?

As for pit bulls, I'm not sure about temperament, but it seems to me they are stronger overall, have more bite strength and tend to inflict more serious injuries than other dogs. This is in my limited personal experience with dog bites. We had a neighbor who was laid up 8 months from a pit bull bite. Our other neighbor said that it was the sweetest dog, and it was so good with the kids, she couldn't imagine why it would bother anybody. Apparently she wasn't there the day it had my wife and kids penned up in the car for 10minutes in our driveway. Or the armed standoff I had with that crazy dog in my driveway at 4 in the am.

And my brother's pit bull, a really sweet dog, got my dad on the ground and tried to clamp down on his neck. Fortunately, Dad got his arm and his ear instead. Dad was pretty ticked.

Pit bulls never used to bother me, but nowadays when I see one roaming the neighborhood I do something about it.