TheeBadOne
Member
I question where there's any evidence that police used (or use) fire as a weapon?
Another One Up In Flames...
- Thread starter SteyrAUG
- Start date
- Status
So do I. Which is why I said:
Do you disagree?
Pyrotechnic CS cannisters are capable of starting fires. True? If the officers had even minimal training in the use of these tools, they would know this. True? The police fired some sort of CS cannister into the home (possibly the pyrotechnic variety). True? Some time thereafter, the house burned to the ground. True?
Strikes me as sufficient cause to at least discuss the validity of using a known fire-starter in standoff situations.
We're debating almost entirely on a theoretical level anyway as we don't know the accuracy of this report and even if it were 100% accurate, the article is limited in its coverage.
Mike Irwin
Member
God forbid the police use something DANGEROUS in trying to entice this guy to leave his home.
Lord knows we don't want these Hitlothugs to be able to hurt anyone.
Lord knows we don't want these Hitlothugs to be able to hurt anyone.
Selfdfenz
Member
"Sorensen, a 12-year veteran, was answering an Aug. 2 trespassing call on his day off in the small desert community of Llano when he was gunned down. "
was answering an Aug. 2 trespassing call on his day off
MG what a sad thing.
All the hoopla about the guy in the shack and none about this officer. I'm not one to hold back when LE goes too far (which they darn sure do sometimes) but this officer deserved better than this fate. He went the extra mile and looked what happened.
Tragic for the officer and his family.
S-
was answering an Aug. 2 trespassing call on his day off
MG what a sad thing.
All the hoopla about the guy in the shack and none about this officer. I'm not one to hold back when LE goes too far (which they darn sure do sometimes) but this officer deserved better than this fate. He went the extra mile and looked what happened.
Tragic for the officer and his family.
S-
Oh for the love of Mike, calm down Mike.
Of course they'll play dangerous with a dangerous criminal, but there is a limit to what we allow them to do. Or are you all for pumping nerve gas into any place where a violent felon might be holed up? Why not just hit it with air-dropped munitions? Or tacnuke it?
Because of collateral damage first (that includes the kiddies that might be cowering in the corner somewhere, you know. as well as the neighbors), and due process of law second.
*sigh*
But apparently anyone who doesn't get in line to applaud every police needs to get jumped on. Another victory for the Us vs Them crew - on both sides.
Of course they'll play dangerous with a dangerous criminal, but there is a limit to what we allow them to do. Or are you all for pumping nerve gas into any place where a violent felon might be holed up? Why not just hit it with air-dropped munitions? Or tacnuke it?
Because of collateral damage first (that includes the kiddies that might be cowering in the corner somewhere, you know. as well as the neighbors), and due process of law second.
*sigh*
But apparently anyone who doesn't get in line to applaud every police needs to get jumped on. Another victory for the Us vs Them crew - on both sides.
TheeBadOne
Member
Where in the article does it say the police "Vented" the building?
Here's one example: About a month ago, the Michigan State Patrol inserted a "flash-bang" (per the MSP press conference) into Scott Woodring's house...turned out it was SIX POUNDS OF TNT! The deliberate lie would have never been questioned, except in that case, someone got video footage of the roof of the house being lifted off, fireball rolling out the front door. MSP also floated the "suspect caused the fire" phlegm; when they coundn't find the suspect's scorched remains in the ashes of the burnt house, they had to retreat from that "theory". The suspect had escaped some time before the final assault.
Moderator Justin stated:
In every profession, employees learn the "rules", and know the "ropes"; the latter being informal procedures for getting the job done.
The REAL LE SOP (i.e, "ropes") for anyone suspected of firing at an officer, or worse killing an officer in this case, is "scorched earth", once the determination has been made. Of course no LE training manual will state this explicitly. So the request for a training manual citation is somewhat of a red herring.
We can debate the appropriateness of the "determination". In this case, it sounds like a mental problem...middle aged man with no prior criminal history. That's sad.
What I take issue with most are the absurd, pre-scripted LE press releases, whose intent is to demonize the suspect, rather than report the facts. "Flash bang" (wink-wink). Shameless indeed. If you intend to declare war, then declare war; please don't insult my intelligence with this sanitized, lying, CYA drivel.
TheeBadOne
Member
Fallacies
Hasty Generalization
Burden of Proof
Straw man
Mike Irwin
Member
"Or are you all for pumping nerve gas into any place where a violent felon might be holed up?"
For all the pissing and moaning that's going on you'd think that's exactly what's going on, Cordex.
The simple fact of the matter is that tear gas is a LESS THAN LETHAL method of getting someone to surrender.
Is it completely safe?
NO.
Statistically, though, I'd bet it's a LOT safer than the bullets that they were already trading with the guy.
But is there any indication of what started the fire? At this point, no, yet the immediate assumption is that it WAS the equivilent of a tacnapalmnukenervegas attack.
For all we know a bullet (remember, it doesn't seem that anyone's moaning about those) could have hit the electrical panel and caused a short circuit.
"But apparently anyone who doesn't get in line to applaud every police needs to get jumped on."
Yeah, sure, and statements like this are just peachy
ing keen, aren't they?
"But I guess burning suspects alive is ok."
It just REALLY frosts me when someone who's already actively engaged in the attempted murder of police officers by shooting at them somehow comes out to be a hero for civil rights.
For all the pissing and moaning that's going on you'd think that's exactly what's going on, Cordex.
The simple fact of the matter is that tear gas is a LESS THAN LETHAL method of getting someone to surrender.
Is it completely safe?
NO.
Statistically, though, I'd bet it's a LOT safer than the bullets that they were already trading with the guy.
But is there any indication of what started the fire? At this point, no, yet the immediate assumption is that it WAS the equivilent of a tacnapalmnukenervegas attack.
For all we know a bullet (remember, it doesn't seem that anyone's moaning about those) could have hit the electrical panel and caused a short circuit.
"But apparently anyone who doesn't get in line to applaud every police needs to get jumped on."
Yeah, sure, and statements like this are just peachy
ing keen, aren't they? "But I guess burning suspects alive is ok."
It just REALLY frosts me when someone who's already actively engaged in the attempted murder of police officers by shooting at them somehow comes out to be a hero for civil rights.
"The REAL LE SOP (i.e, "ropes") for anyone suspected of firing at an officer, or worse killing an officer in this case, is "scorched earth", once the determination has been made."
Hogwash.
Though the often noted and loudly complained about virtual prohibition from going right to guns certainly gets toned down a bit.
Hogwash.
Though the often noted and loudly complained about virtual prohibition from going right to guns certainly gets toned down a bit.
Exactly. Since one side-effect to using some kinds of tear gas in some kinds of buildings is uncontrolled fire, use of that sort of dispersal method by police needs to be reconsidered.
I'd have had no problem if they'd dropped the scumbag with aimed rifle fire as he was trading shots with them. If he was the genius who set the fire (questionable at best, in my mind ... few cornered rats choose to burn themselves out, and suicide was what he had in mind, he had some better choices), then I'm glad it ended without more death than just him.
IF, however, the police intentionally or negligently used a dangerous (not just to scumbag, but anyone else cowering inside the house, and other homes surrounding it as well) pyrotechnic device to drive him out, then they screwed up. Simple as that.
Only when accurate. Except I left out a word. I intended for it to say "police action". My bad.
He's NOT a hero for civil rights. From what I understand, he's a 'terrasphere', an unstable nutjob, a murderer and as I said in my first post on this thread he probably "deserved to burn."
What was it that the anti-war types loved to say? "Just because we're against the war doesn't mean we're for Saddam" Well, kind of like that ... just because I'm against the police torching buildings because they think a suspect is in it at the time doesn't mean I worship those suspects. Did the police torch this building? Don't know. Never claimed to.
When have I ever said anything nice about Mr. SuspectedCopKiller? No hero of mine. Doesn't mean I have to like the tactics used against him (if the tactics I dislike were in fact used, of course).
Last edited:
TheeBadOne
Member
Lotta if's...
Some go the other way too
Some go the other way too
JohnBT
Member
"...SIX POUNDS OF TNT..."
I'm still trying to find out where this number came from. The cast plastic boosters I've been able to find for sale run from a few ounces up to five pounds.
Just curious.
_____
On the original topic...Are law enforcement officers required to respond with equal force? Knife for a knife, handgun for a handgun, etc., or can they use enough force to get the job done?
John
I'm still trying to find out where this number came from. The cast plastic boosters I've been able to find for sale run from a few ounces up to five pounds.
Just curious.
_____
On the original topic...Are law enforcement officers required to respond with equal force? Knife for a knife, handgun for a handgun, etc., or can they use enough force to get the job done?
John
John,
Explosives do not have to be a single homogenous lump to be effective. Duct tape and det cord, baby.
Explosives do not have to be a single homogenous lump to be effective. Duct tape and det cord, baby.
Or possibly to disperse the gas, as it can be harmful or deadly in extreme concentrations. Or maybe the reporter go the order wrong. Smash hole in door/wall/window and then throw the gas through the resulting hole?
oldfart
Member
I followed this saga from the moment the Deputy was killed and the area was flooded with LE officers. The area is subdivided into homesites with named and numbered streets, many of which are unpaved. The fire, however intense it was, didn't endanger any other homes. The house in question had been inhabited by a Latino family who was allowed (by the bad guy) to walk away before the firefight began.
Since the suspect was found,_partially burned, ouside the house, it is reasonable to believe that he didn't start the fire, but the possibility can't be ruled out. He might have started it to keep from being taken by the police, then, when the heat becaame too intense, changed his mind. We'll never know.
There is one thing in this and all other situations where the police are subsequently accused of excessive force, the truth will never come out. Police forces have nothing to apologize to the Mafia for when it comes to Omerta-- they clam up and cover their butts as well as any Godfather could. While this is regrettable, I can't say that I blame them. I know that if I had ratted out a fellow officer on one occasion, I'd be worried if I had to rely on him or one of his buddies for back-up later.
As to whether this "tactic" is becomming commonplace-- "Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence and three times is a conspiracy." Do letters go between jurisdictions touting the efficiency of burning out suspects? No, but cops read newspapers too and they can see what works, and if it works without endangering them-- so much the better. I think we'll see more of it in the future rather than less.
Since the suspect was found,_partially burned, ouside the house, it is reasonable to believe that he didn't start the fire, but the possibility can't be ruled out. He might have started it to keep from being taken by the police, then, when the heat becaame too intense, changed his mind. We'll never know.
There is one thing in this and all other situations where the police are subsequently accused of excessive force, the truth will never come out. Police forces have nothing to apologize to the Mafia for when it comes to Omerta-- they clam up and cover their butts as well as any Godfather could. While this is regrettable, I can't say that I blame them. I know that if I had ratted out a fellow officer on one occasion, I'd be worried if I had to rely on him or one of his buddies for back-up later.
As to whether this "tactic" is becomming commonplace-- "Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence and three times is a conspiracy." Do letters go between jurisdictions touting the efficiency of burning out suspects? No, but cops read newspapers too and they can see what works, and if it works without endangering them-- so much the better. I think we'll see more of it in the future rather than less.
TheeBadOne
Member
Was it the same agency every time? Was it the same state every time? That's like saying that 3 plumber from 3 different companies in 3 different states stole from their clients, all events separated by 5 years. Does that make a pattern for all plumbers?
The crayon is yours, color how you like. That doesn't mean that the picture you paint is accurate. Perception is an individual thing.
Do we need to look at these events? Dang right! But we must be:
1) Impartial- if not it's a which hunt in search of a result (pro or con)
2) Honest- if the facts (F A C T S, not speculation, or "yeah, well one time...") support a finding less tastefull to you than the other, accept it, embrace it, do not supress it.
3) Patient- if there aren't enough facts to make a judgement based on #1 & #2, wait until there are. These events happen and less than 1 hr later people are posting "facts" on exactly what happened, even though law enforcement is still on scene gathering evidence, taking statements, and continuing the investigation.
All the best
brookstexas
member
I miss Mayberry and Andy Griffith....
Is it now a matter of $$$$ in personnel time?
Shut off power water and electricity and at least give someone a few days before imolation.
Now if he admitted on the radio he did it and it was recorded, what the hell...
-BrooksTexas
Is it now a matter of $$$$ in personnel time?
Shut off power water and electricity and at least give someone a few days before imolation.
Now if he admitted on the radio he did it and it was recorded, what the hell...
-BrooksTexas
TheeBadOne, IIRC LASO has several tear gas fires to their credit.
The MO is pretty consistent. Introduce the gas, vent the building (usually with a mechanical ram) and then light (usually by means of gunfire). Then they ponder if the fire was started by the victim.
The MO is pretty consistent. Introduce the gas, vent the building (usually with a mechanical ram) and then light (usually by means of gunfire). Then they ponder if the fire was started by the victim.
TheeBadOne
Member
The alleged venting is a hole made by the ram...for the purpose of allowing the entry team to enter through and unexpected area and hopefully allow them to enter w/o being immediately fired upon. It's not a 'vent' hole.
So, the incident commander can revise all known thermodynamic laws by merely making this statement. And anyone who would question this is unfairly criticizing LEO's. Is that your point?
Probably a low percentage. However, of those standoffs that end in fire, LEO's would have us believe that 100%, "may have been caused by the suspect". An absurd, pre-scripted, pre-meditated fallacy.
OK, I've responded you your questions, now respond to my previous question:
In the Scott Woodring standoff in MIchigan, how could six, one pound sticks of TNT be mistakenly reported by MSP as a "flash-bang", "percussion round", "distraction device"? I can't wait to hear the answers to this one.
- Status
Similar threads
