Deputies Apologize for L.A. Shooting

[thorn726]

successfu lday? got our man?
and he got no charges, the PD just made a whole neighborhood their enemy,
AND- if we can't trust the cops to folow the four rules????
how can we expect anyone to believe the rest of us will??????????

 

[pythonguy]

The mere fact they shot one of their own, who thank god had a vest on, is proof enough this was a "sloppy" (at the least) action by the Police. That's not a knock against Police, lets get real here, we have to pay them, any victims, and may ourselves (or worse, our loved ones) be shot in this kind of situation. Why the outrage at questioning the training and techniques? Shouldn't we all insist on a safe AND effective Police force? Its silly to twist this into anything less then a screw up that needs to be addressed and corrected. If WE do a bad job at work won't we hear about it and receive feedback and/or disciplinary action? Lets get real people and intelligently address the problem instead of covering it up because of the nature of police work. We know most of the Police are good, hard working dedicated professionals, shouldn't they all be?

 

[Captain Ron]

Sloppy work they should be sacked or fired.! 120 round ridiculous

 

[Sir Aardvark]

This incident will be a required must-see training video for years to come,
probably titled with something like "How to really %$# up on live TV!".
I especially liked the part where the deputy waves off the cameraman with his gun pointed right at him and with his finger still on the trigger.

 

[MountainPeak]

Yup, the cop gave me chills when he did that! ADDED: I do not want to come across as anti-LEO. The two guys I shoot with most frequently are retired cops. One a County Deputy from TN, the other a Chicago Policeman. We have discussed cops and their handling of guns on quite a few occasions. Usually, after stuff likes this pops up in the media. The guy from TN said he could rate most of his dept., as good handlers of firearms. Most were shooters before and during their careers. The guy from Chicago said there were guys that took firearms VERY seriously, and many others that didn't. He said quite a few never fired a round unless they were prepping for a qualification. I personally find that STRANGE, and scary!

 

[jobu07]

I'm glad they were decent enough to admit a mistake they made. Hopefully, this will prompt more longer and harder training for law enforcement nation-wide. You can never be too well prepared when it comes to protecting people's lives and property.

 

[El Rojo]

One law for me, another for thee.

Sorry, but if we as a society want them to go out and arrest dangerous people, there has to be two sets of laws. There is no getting around it. You can't just have one set of laws and have your normal everyday citizen going out and about and arresting anyone they think is a dangerous felon. I most certainly feel comfortable not having to take action when I see a felony in progress and being able to lay back and not have to confront them if I don't want to. If we all had the same laws, then maybe I would be obligated to help.

Now if they can distinguish who the cops were doing the cross fire and any others who really didn't have a clear shot, sure, discipline them. However, that Suburban is a weapon and when he decided not to stop as he was heading towards a cruiser, he took the risk of getting shot at. I don't fault them for that at all. And as far as being in a neighborhood, it happens. You can't pick and choose when someone comes speeding at you in a SUV. You can pick and choose when to fire and when to dive out of the way.

Again, when one starts shooting, you can't blame others for shooting too. They don't know if the guy was shooting at them or what was going on. Just the tough luck of picking the wrong time to run from the cops. Bummer.

 

[Vernal45]

Sorry, but if we as a society want them to go out and arrest dangerous people, there has to be two sets of laws.

When that happens, its called a police state. Police are, or they should be, required to obey the same laws us citizens have to.

 

[rock jock]

This incident has really opened my eyes about the attitude held by a lot more LEOs than I would have thought, or would like to believe. Over on the GT Coptalk forum, I had a LEO say, not in a manner of speaking, but rather exactly, that "until you've been in the middle of something like that, then no, taxpayer or not, you don't have the right to criticize things like this." The message was pretty clear - LEOs are not accountable to anyone but themselves. That idea is disgusting and the height of arrogance. No other profession, public or private, gets a free pass when innocents are put at risk by gross negligence, but these think they are entitled to one. Thing is, this sentiment was shared to a "T" by every LEO on that forum. Now, IMO, I understand why this incident happened, and I certainly will not say that I personally could have performed better had I been there, BUT, the why is still not an excuse and does not immunize the officers involved from criticism on the part of the public.

 

[mrhuckins]

The key isn't to make sure you are in the desert before you shoot, it is to know what you are shooting at, hit it, and not use more rounds than you absolutely have to.

The deputies fired 120 rounds in the early morning confrontation, striking Hayes four times and bruising one deputy who was hit in his bulletproof vest.

Lets do the math...if we include the LEO that was shot by his fellow officer, their overall success rate of scoring a hit is 4.2%. If you were a criminal in this area, would you be afraid of the law?

Additionally, in a firefight with this department, LEO's are 20% as likely to be hit as the BG.

Not to mention that 10% of your fellow officers will shoot you in a firefight.

And 50% of the people shot in a firefight with this department will be fellow officers.

 

[Citadel99]

Hey guys,

YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!! We, as a society and particularly as gun owners, always complain/moan/gripe that people in today's society will not take responsibility for their actions. They always blame their errs on others. Now, you've got a group of people admitting their misdeed and their outfit willing to pay double for the stupidty that occurred. Leave it alone.

If they didn't admit they're wrong you'd gripe. If they did you'd gripe. Am I floored by the video? Yes. Do I think it was wrong and absurd? Yes. Am I pleased that they are accepting responsibility for their actions. Absolutely!

Just because they admit they're wrong doesn't mean they should have complete immunity but, damn, they should be aplauded for manning up and admitting their screw up. Especially in today's litigious society.

Just my thoughts,

Mark

 

[El Rojo]

When that happens, its called a police state. Police are, or they should be, required to obey the same laws us citizens have to.

Pony up then and tell us how to convince a cop to have the exact same rights as us and still want to work that job? Are we going to give them authority to arrest people or do they have to follow the same rules as us? Will we only allow cops to open carry in states with open carry? Will the other states only have CCW cops? Can they detain a suspect at gun point or only when there is a imminent threat to their life or others? So no felony stops anymore unless you see a gun? They should only drive the speed limit during pursuits or face getting a ticket? If they pull somone over, can that person just drive off after giving them their drivers license info or do they have to stick around? Could I be a police officer with no training since there is no difference between us? I can buy a black and white, put lights on it, and be my own citizen cop? I mean afterall, if we all follow the same laws, what is to prevent me from doing that?

Police by nature do a different job than civilians. They need certain powers granted to them and they need certain protections because they are doing a little bit more than driving to the mall and back.

Vernal45, you need to offer some more evidence than that. Tell us how cops are going to do their jobs if the mere brandishing a weapon is a misdemeanor and they have to go around arresting people all of the time? I can think of a real easy conclusion, but your usual one sentence responses with no logic or reasoning leaves me dubious.

 

[chris in va]

I think the apology is just a start, not a means to an end. They're damn lucky those two bullets didn't hit the kids in that one house.

I'll be SO glad when all LEO's are equipped with some sort of inexpensive EMP for cars so they don't have to chase some potential BG around residential streets to mow over 3 year olds. ZAP...car dies, end of story.

 

[Supreme Leader]

And just where is this payoff coming from?

 

[The_Shootist]

Bring Back Revolvers!

120 shots with 4 non-fatal (luckily) on the target and 1 on a fellow LEO? These guys simply don't deserve standard cap semi's.

Or is it just because it was in LA that something this ridiculous happened?

 

[akluvr]

As a former LEO, I add this. Many agencies teach firearms, few teach tactics. If you watch the video, it looks like the (bad) joke I heard a long time ago about a "polish firing squad". The vehicle was surrounded and everyone was firing. Armchair quarterbacking it, I believe I might have been grabbing cover due to the sheer amount of rounds flying around. Not being there I don't know what I might have done. I have worked in a small agency and we worked on tactics and range time, as we had less manpower to use. When I went to a larger agency, we shot our rounds and went back to the street. When I asked if we could work on tactics I was told "I suppose you want to be a SWAT weenie don't you". Typical administration. This looks like a typical multi-precinct possibly multi-agency officer involved shooting. These are confused situations, you don't know (or pay attention to) what the other guy is doing or is even capable of. Unfortunately, it happens. The problem is, brass doesn't look at it with the attitude of "What can we do to make sure this doesn't happen again?", they just throw money at it and hope it goes away.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

I think the officers behaved recklessly.

If Osama Bin Laden himself was standing in the street in front of my house, I would not want the police to shoot 120 rounds at me in an effort to catch him.

 

[Vernal45]

Could I be a police officer with no training since there is no difference between us?

With the department in question here, you probably could get hired, I am sure you are probably better with a firearm than they are.

 

[Vernal45]

hey need certain powers granted to them and they need certain protections because they are doing a little bit more than driving to the mall and back.

The already have certain powers that we do not, i.e. arrest owers. As far as immunity and protections, hell no. They should face the same music as we do when they screw up. Thats what you dont get. If a citizen, in a self protection situation, spreads shots all over hell and back, he would be arrested for reckless endangerment. Being a cop does not put one above the law. Cops have special powers, that are needed. Arrest powers, pursuit, ability to detain, and many more. But when those powers are abused, the cop should be treated like us, no protections, co color of law immunity. To enforce the law, do so by example first. These cops here should be arrested and charged with reckless endangerment. Just like the deputy that tazed the marine, wrong apartment, wrong guy, should be charged with assault. Your arguement above is full of childish holes. I hop you are not really advocating 2 sets of laws, casue if you are, you are really advocating a Police State. People must be held accountable for their actions, that also includes cops.

 

[ExtremeDooty]

I am very pro LEO and think it should be open season on anyone that runs from the cops with exceptions like passengers in the car. Their high speed, reckless, don't give a damn driving puts the people in the immediate area in danger of losing their lives. I would even support the Rodney King treatment when these morons are pulled out of their cars.

But 120 shots taken and 4 non lethal hits speaks for itself. With added power comes added responsibility. Cops with the power to shoot at their own discretion have a responsibility to learn the basics of shooting.

How can we expect an un-informed public to trust average citizens carrying guns when "trained professionals" are this inept and irresponsible?

 

[Logistics]

Let us not forget, these are the same "police" that could not bring themselves to help store owners in the streets of LA back in 94' when the riots were occurring....

Real professional.

 

[El Rojo]

I give Vernal45. You make sense now. If the cops do screw up, then you are correct, they should be held to the same standards if we screw up. I can't argue with that. I was looking at it more through your general statement of cops can't have two sets of laws, instead of your now clarified position as they should have the same accountability as everyone else.

I guess when we phrase it that way, every officer should have to account for every round. I am glad I am not going to be the investigator on this one accounting for every round! That will be the challenge here. You could easily fire the idiots who were standing across from each other shooting into the SUV. But how do you figure out who else gets the boot in this one?

Now the bigger issue is we will have more law enforcement accountability when we get our bullet registry system up and working. No one will be able to hide when they find their serial numbers on the bullets all through-out the neighborhood. Police accountability would be a great reason to support the bullet registry. No more JBTs through the BRS!

 

[vis35]

The guy from Chicago said there were guys that took firearms VERY seriously, and many others that didn't. He said quite a few never fired a round unless they were prepping for a qualification. I personally find that STRANGE, and scary!

Should not be surprised, most LE agency’s regard an interest in firearms as a reason not to hire you (BTW, I grew up in Chicago, that attitude is not as bad here in Alaska).

As far as 4 hits out of 120 shots, between 10 officers where were a shotgun with slugs or a rifle? Back at the office? If it is a bad shoot, just as well.
Regards,
Jeff

 

[Vernal45]

El Rojo,

I am not anti LEO. I am anti special rules for LEO's. They have a tough job to do, but they signed on for it, so they need to do it right. Firearms training should be top proirity. In this incident, yes, people need to be fired, all the way up to the training officer. SOP's need to be looked over, use of force needs to be drilled into officers brains. If this was a citizen that did this, we would be hearing the cries from the ANTI's for decades.

 

[Logistics]

>>>If this was a citizen that did this, we would be hearing the cries from the ANTI's for decades.<<<

Boy ain't that the truth. How do these guys take themselves seriously???