Another "what a nice world we live in" story...

[Fred Fuller]

FWIW, camslam, in case you were wondering... it wasn't me who moved this to S&T. I don't know which of the mods in General moved it, since no one added a note to the thread to that effect. Had I not been in General looking for something else, I'd not have noticed the tag there indicating this thread had been moved from there.

lpl

 

[mrokern]

My family needs me. I'm no good to them dead, and I'm probably WORSE for them in prison, or living life under the crushing load of debt from years of attorney's fees.

...

Defensive action is for the gravest extreme. This was NOT the gravest extreme.

If you want to rid the world of injustice and petty theft, swear an oath, put on a badge (and a vest!) and serve your community as a dutiful law-enforcement officer.

This. I owe my loved ones every last breath I have. I owe the rest of society whatever I have left...and that isn't much.

Now, those who know me personally around here know that I'm not the type to stay uninvolved if someone's life is in danger and I can do something about it...but you've got to weigh the odds. I don't wear a badge, and I don't wear a vest...and I WILL leave the scene still breathing.

Reminds me of a co-worker who was in a stop-n-rob a few months ago during a holdup. He was in line getting his morning coffee, and two choirboys with guns drawn burst into the store, demanding wallets and cell phones from everyone in the store. When he was telling those of us at the office about it later that day, one of our colleagues (who, like me, has a carry permit...the robbed co-worker does not) said, "Man, I wish you'd been there, Mark!"

I replied, "Why, so I could lose my wallet and iPhone too?"

He couldn't believe that I wouldn't draw on two guys who already had guns pointed at me, with no history of having shot anyone who complied thus far. :banghead:

Compliance isn't surrender. It's a tactical option that may be your best chance for survival and the ability to fight at a later moment.

-Mark

 

[Justin]

I'm the one who moved it to Strategies and Tactics, as there is fundamentally no reason for this news story to be posted in General Gun Discussion.

News stories about tragic crimes committed with guns are no help in moving THR's mission to be a place for the discussion of responsible firearms ownership. Heck, there's even a sticky about this very thing at the top of the General Gun Discussion forum.

That said, there did seem to be enough meat to the story that, in my judgement at least, it would make for a good jumping off point for a discussion in Strategies and Tactics.

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

Sometimes people react to what is so deeply ingrained in their nature that they are surprised by their actions. Maybe that's all that motivated Mr. Taylor? He was 23. Seems about the right age for reflex to override prudence.

 

[amd6547]

Defending store property is never a good idea.
I once worked in a high end camping store. We were a North Face dealer. At the time, that brand was popular with certain thugs who liked the warm weatherproof outerwear while standing outside selling crack.
A couple suspicious looking guys came in one day. They were in the store for quite a while, and even received the steller customer service we were known for. When they brought their selections to the counter, they dashed out the door...three employees in chase. The gear they stole was probably worth about $1000. I almost followed them out too, but decided that somebody needed to call the police.
While I was on the phone, a customer advised me that one of our employees had been stabbed. The employee had tackled one of the thugs...in grappling on the ground with the guy, the thug reached around and stabbed the employee in the back with what turned out to be a small swiss army knife...it punctured the lung and put the employee in the hospital for two weeks. the thugs then got away, but were quickly captured
In the end, the prosecution of the thugs was a long drawn out affair...prosecutors seemed bound to close it quickly, and in some cases, did not seem to be aware that our employee had spent two weeks in the hospital on a ventilator. Only repeated calls from the detectives to the injured employee to contact the prosecutors kept it somewhat on track.
The perps ended up getting probation...They were good boys, minister's son, etc, who lived in Akron, and drove about an hour to steal from us.

 

[earlthegoat2]

If you want to rid the world of injustice and petty theft, swear an oath, put on a badge (and a vest!) and serve your community as a dutiful law-enforcement officer.

I understand we live in a world where the only people in our society who have the legal right to prevent and act upon the evil in the world are those who are sworn peace officers. Often times these men and women have seen and experienced the things that all of us huddled safely behind our locked doors could only dream about in nightmares.

I understand that for most of us to sleep soundly at night is the idea there are armed individuals paid pathetically little to make snap decisions and judgements on a daily basis and the one time they make the wrong decision all of us who are huddled safely behind our locked doors will judge them as the evil they are trying to prevent.

I understand that there are judges and lawyers who work very hard every day to thwart justice as well as invoke it. These individuals are the deliverers of only a form of law and justice that has been put in place through the political transgressions of the lawmakers that know little of the law and even less of justice but vie for the power of the position and prestige it brings to only try to further their own agenda and win the popularity contest of politics.

I understand that because of all these laws and all the politicking which brings about the norms of our society that eventually the pole shifts and the way of thinking of the lawmakers, the judges, and the lawyers redirects itself onto the greater society and brings about the shift of a society no longer operating on the social contract of the past but the new social contract of flying below the radar, comlying to the demands of evil, afraid of the consequences of doing what it right, and encouraging others to do the same.

I understand I am in the minority and I understand there is no black and white. I regretfully understand the law and the consequences that come with a democracy that is free to evolve as it sees fit as opposed to evolving naturally.

We do have a responsibility to our family and keeping ourselves alive should be paramount in that respect. Are we living selfishly for ourselves or are we all hiding behind all too convenient excuses that follow self preservation around. There will be a time when self preservation will land you in prison as well as preserving the lives of others will. Where do you draw the line when to act and when to run and when to comply?

Mr Taylor's death is unfortunate but maybe this is how he would have ended up anyway in a few months time in a similar instance because of being fed up with the world he lives in.

Just remember this seemingly unrelated bit (I will try to make it as unreligious as possible and unpolitical to keep within the rules):

As it is not our right to determine who lives or dies as it pertains to issues such as abortion and capital punishment maybe so it should also not be our right to determine who lives or dies as it pertains to saving lives.

What I mean is, there are two ways of looking at everything. In the case of the OP the conventional wisdom is to look at it as being irresponsible to try and intervene over a few cases of beer when you have a family to think about. He obviously knew the man had a gun but acted anyway. Still actions like this could land you in prison or in a legal battle. This is the modern way of thinking as our society has become annoyingly litigious. The other way of looking at is that Mr Taylor was standing up against evil and we could praise him for his actions and still ourn his death.

What is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right.

I embrace criticism on this and many of you are going to think it does not make sense.

 

[Warhawk83]

While it may be valiant to stand up against a thug taking advantage,it is also incredibly stupid. People like that don't have the same mental blocks to keep them from killing someone because they scuffed their puma or some other stupid ****.

I WILL NOT put my life or the lives of my family at risk to stop petty theft.

 

[devildog32713]

If someone struck my wife/girlfreind with a gun, he would have went down in a few very short seconds....

 

[Sam1911]

If someone struck my wife/girlfreind with a gun, he would have went down in a few very short seconds....

Hopefully you're a lot stronger, faster, more capable of explosive violent action, and ... well... luckier than Mr. Taylor was.

Someone DID strike his wife with a gun. And Mr. Taylor stepped up like a man and he died.

Now his wife has a bruise, and a dead husband. She'd have probably settled for just the bruise.

-Sam

 

[Webbj0219]

He was underprepaired for this confrontation. This is the reason cops carry guns and they have baliffs at court. You need power on your side to dish out justice. Imagine a unarmed cop coming up to a hardened killer and saying,"come with me, Im takinbg you to jail for your crimes, get in the back of my car!" It would turn ugly really fast. But with this, all I can tell this man did to get shot was confront the guy for pistol whipping his wife. You wouldnt expect to get shot over that. It doesnt say he attacked the guy. And I dont think it had to do with the beer. Though it may have been related, maybe some passive agressiveness on the criminals mind for being told to put the beer back. Which he did. The shooting happened because the man confronted the criminal for hitting his wife. He may have just said something to the effect of,"Why the blank, did you hit her?" Seems more likely that he would have gotten shot over the beer. But maybe the criminal thought he was going to attack him because he was coming up from behind. This doesnt sound like vigilantism.

 

[Sam1911]

Webbj0219,

You've focused on the very last moments of the confrontation. But you're missing the context and the manner in which Mr. Taylor certainly did hasten his own demise.

The criminal was attempting to flee the scene when first confronted by Mr. Taylor. He was done, on his way out, had completed his business, and was certainly no longer a threat to anyone. Being forced to return the stolen goods pushed him into a highly agitated state: it was reported that he brandished his weapon and threatened everyone in the store on his way out after having returned the stolen beer. Right there he's moved from petty theft to felonious assault. Why? Because he was pushed back into the store -- and into confrontation mode -- by Mr. Taylor.

On his way out, he runs into Mrs. Taylor, has words, and whacks her on the head. And, as he's continuing to flee the scene, he finds that he's being pursued by Mr. Taylor still. Now, his planned petty theft has turned not only into a felony assault charge (for brandishing & threatening) but into a looming physical battle and possibly injury, detention, arrest, or even death at the hands of the irate husband. So he shoots in his attempt to disengage and then flees.

This is the serious take-home message to the entire story: Mr. Taylor's FIRST actions escalated this from a ho-hum every day shoplifting to his own murder. ALWAYS consider that the guy (or woman) you're confronting, upbraiding, or chastising for offending your personal sensibilities could very probably be armed, and could be one frayed nerve away from taking their angst out on the closest irritant.

AND, the more out-of-the-norm and anti-social the behavior you're acting against, the more likely the actor is to escalate far beyond your expectations or preparations. (e.g.: if you see someone stealing, assume they'll kill)

When Mr. Taylor acted out against the petty theft he tipped the balance of a very dangerous individual. He was incredibly lucky -- he was given a second chance. The thief threatened but did not shoot on his way back out of the store. It could have ended there. But Taylor didn't take advantage of his incredible good fortune. Instead he pursued the now visibly armed thief into the street and insured a horrific end.

Learn from this stuff. Some folks have paid DEARLY to teach us these lessons.

-Sam

 

[ShadyScott999]

Very well stated Sam.

 

[rocky branch]

A well intentioned fool.
Not enough sense to know discretion is the better part of valor.
Family man as well.

A number of years ago another fool was in line at a bank.

There was a robbery attempt and the guy thought he could attack and disarm the robber.

He left a widow and a couple fatherless kids behind.

Stupid and senseless.

 

[Deanimator]

Never, EVER, under ANY circumstances, DIE for a hunk of merchandise. Even if it's yours.

I wouldn't shoot somebody for stealing my car when I wasn't in it or for trying to steal my television, even if it were legal here in Ohio.

If you threaten ME with physical violence, whether in a carjacking or an armed robbery, ALL of my actions are premised on your presumed intention to maim or kill me. I'm going to take you at your word. I'm not going to second guess your CHOICE to put me in immediate fear of life and limb. If you threaten me with deadly force, I assume that you intend to use it, regardless of what I do. Therefore I intend to exert every effort to use deadly force to neutralize the threat of deadly force to me which you pose. If you don't like that, don't do everything you can to convince me that you're an immediate danger to my life and limb.

Actions have consequences and the most likely consequence of you immediately and credibly threatening me with deadly force is me shooting you.

 

[T. Bracker]

Well said Sam,

Even with the property, because you are friends with a couple of guys who work at this store, you think the owner is going to take care of your family if you are injured or killed trying to protect his beer?? Think again. Mind your business and protect you and yours!

 

[LiveLife]

OP:

The man, police said, went to a cooler and took two 30 packs of beer and walked toward the exit when Taylor blocked his path and told him to return the beer. Taylor confronted the man because he knew the employees there and wanted to help

I have been robbed several times and once subdued a robber until the police arrived (when I was young, dumb and full of you know what armed only with fists :banghead and went to court several times with positive convictions.

Just as I treat all firearms as though they are loaded, I consider all criminals as though they are armed (knife, gun, etc.) with intent to do harm until absolutely proven otherwise (even when they say so - since they often lie).

Even if I owned the store, I would not have confronted the thief. I would have gotten very good descriptions of the subject (height, weight, etc.) and possibly carefully followed (without being noticed) to his final destination or last known direction and notify the police.

At the time of the theft in progress, no human was in danger by the subject and by confronting, the victim put his life and the lives of others at risk. Even if the victim was armed with CCW, I don't know if his actions would have been prudent.

Sad tragic incident indeed. I need to read some S&T threads with happy ending stories.

 

[camslam]

With all due respect to the Moderators, I posted this story for the reasons outlined in my OP and subsequent post. This is the type of story that makes ME think, evaluate, review, and solidify my position, thoughts, and plan for situations that might come my way.

Last night my brother and I had a 30 minute conversation about this event. Discussing the different aspects of what happened, what should have been done, what each of us would have done, and why. To me that is CONSTRUCTIVE and if it doesn't fall into

help in moving THR's mission to be a place for the discussion of responsible firearms ownership

, then perhaps a review of what THR's mission is may be in order. Given that both my brother and I, my father, and 3 brother-in-laws all have permits to carry concealed weapons and most carry on a regular basis, it is these types of discussions, internet or verbal that help our continued journey on the road of responsible gun use.

Given the responses to this thread, there are obviously a number of other people that have given some thought to what Mr. Taylor did, how he did it, and I would assume that it has made them think about their own position and plan for such an event. Once again, in my humble opinion, I would deem that constructive and relevant for "The High Road".

Sam wrote:

If you want to rid the world of injustice and petty theft, swear an oath, put on a badge (and a vest!) and serve your community as a dutiful law-enforcement officer.

Sam, I think you will be able to tell by my signature that I both agree and disagree with your statement. If our entire society depends on a select few law enforcement to safeguard our values and lives, then we are indeed headed for trouble.

If our society gets to the point where good men will not stand up for what is right, then all is lost. I fear we have lost sight of the founding principles of this country, which were rooted in freedom, justice, and common sense, that we are now continuing the rapid descent to a morally and financially bankrupt society. As I mentioned before, everyone must choose for themselves when and how to act, but when the majority of society doesn't care, won't fight for, and doesn't defend correct values and principles, we are in trouble.

For some a pack of beer, cigarettes, car, food, bike, are not worth a fight or even death. For some both the articles mentioned and the principle of right vs wrong, make it worth taking action. Where does a person draw the line and say enough is enough? Every person must decide for themselves, the important thing is to be able to look yourself in the mirror and be comfortable with your action or inaction.


P.S. Earlthegoat2: Amen! Can I get a hallelujah?

 

[Sam1911]

For some both the articles mentioned and the principle of right vs wrong, make it worth taking action. Where does a person draw the line and say enough is enough?

Ahhh, but there's the rub. You don't usually get to draw the line just where you're comfortable. If you step up and act, you are committed to see the thing through at least until you can create a disengagement moment. "In for a penny, in for a pound."

Mr. Taylor wanted to stand up for his friends' business, and against a petty theft. Undoubtedly he felt he was making a minor stand against a penny ante swipe. If you'd been able to pause the scene and ask him if he was willing to give his life -- and very nearly his wife's life as well -- to make that stand, I'd guess that he was not.

But maybe he was. He certainly had more than one opportunity to break contact and he chose to see the thing through. "Suicide by criminal," I guess.

In the end, think things through. Contemplate the possible repercussions of the actions you're about to take. Make sure that you can live with the results, whatever they may be.

-Sam

 

[SSN Vet]

Personally... I'm all for burning the perp. alive in town square.

 

[camslam]

In the end, think things through. Contemplate the possible repercussions of the actions you're about to take. Make sure that you can live with the results, whatever they may be.

Yep, but that is a tough one when you literally have seconds or miliseconds to react. Another great reminder why it is so important to be aware, be prepared, and be sure.

I know this is another item/event that I will file into my limited mind regarding my future visits to convenience stores. Hopefully we all learn or remember something from these types of events.

 

[LiveLife]

Personally... I'm all for burning the perp. alive in town square.

If our society gets to the point where good men will not stand up for what is right, then all is lost. I fear we have lost sight of the founding principles of this country, which were rooted in freedom, justice, and common sense, that we are now continuing the rapid descent to a morally and financially bankrupt society.

SSN Vet, camslam, I totally agree with you ... if it was 1776. Here in 2010, thanks to many lawyers, judges, law makers who got swayed by special interest pressure, we have countless laws that dictate (based on which state you live in) what we as citizens are allowed to do.

As I mentioned before, everyone must choose for themselves when and how to act, but when the majority of society doesn't care, won't fight for, and doesn't defend correct values and principles, we are in trouble.

When I was in the service, we were held to rules of engagement (even though enemy forces were not). There are plenty of self-defense laws that protect us when we act with force to fight back/defend ourselves, but under certain specific situations. When I subdued my robber, it was done inside my house, under the protection of the self-defense laws. The victim in your post was not defending himself or protecting others when he confronted the subject and there is the grey area of the law (would two cases of beer be considered substantial enough property to act with force when you don't know whether the subject is armed or not? Not for me. Once his wife was attacked, he absolutely had the right to fight back - too bad he brought fists to a gun fight. And isn't that why we carry CCW - So when and if the situation escalates, we have that firearms option.

Where does a person draw the line and say enough is enough?

Unfortunately, this line has been drawn for us by many lawyers/law makers. Of course, WE as the general public CAN change laws ...

Every person must decide for themselves, the important thing is to be able to look yourself in the mirror and be comfortable with your action or inaction.

I don't want to look myself in the mirror inside a jail/prison cell.

As many have said before, not all situation requires that we act with force, being a great witness may be a better option. Sometimes.

 

[earlthegoat2]

So lets say Mr Taylor was carrying a gun and did everything the same except for when the perp pulled his gun out. Say Mr Taylor waited for the guy to turn his back and drew his gun and as the perp smacked his wife he shot him dead.

Would it be Taylors fault or the BGs. If Taylor had never intervened to begin with then he never would have had to shoot him. Bad guy: 1 Society :0

If Taylor shot the guy and killed him then would Taylor end up in prison? Maybe, maybe not. Legal bills? Maybe, maybe not. In the end though it would be a resounding Bad Guy: ZERO Society: 1.

As it played out though Taylor did not have a gun and got killed for his actions. Bad Guy:1 Society: 0.

 

[LiveLife]

As it played out though Taylor did not have a gun and got killed for his actions. Bad Guy:1 Society: 0.

Moral of the story: Guns may save lives (yours/loved ones).

 

[gdcpony]

If you allow a theft of small things, then how long until it grows to theft of a larger nature. How about your daughter's virtue? I think the man was right to intervene. Would I have gone- unarmed- against a gunman over beer? No, but the weapon didn't come out until after. None the less, if we allow these types to run unhindered then we invite worse later.

If you hit my wife with anything, you can bet I'm coming for you. If you say no to that, then you need not be married. Some may call it being overly "macho" but there are somethings you are sworn to defend. My family is one of those. There are somethings worth dying for. At best, I take him down and he doesn't get away. At worst... I carry good life insurance, so the family is taken care of. I can think of a thousand less honorable things to die for- rock climbing, these lowlifes' rights, riding a horse- and I've risked those.

 

[LiveLife]

If you hit my wife with anything, you can bet I'm coming for you.

But won't it be better to come to your wife's rescue with a gun drawn?

For me, my wife may be coming to MY rescue with her gun drawn (and she's known to shoot first, then shoot again, then shoot again ... and never ask any questions).