Hmm... Very good insight into the politics of individual countries. Extremely informative. By the way, what do you think is the likelihood this directive would pass? Would there be any salami slicing involved where Europeans would lose some of their freedoms? Eg: ban on converted autos, mandatory storage requirements, ban on high-cap mags etc? Or would it be rejected by countries like the V4, Baltics etc at the Council as well as by the EU Parliament?
Anti gun consequences of Paris attack
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Snejdarek
Member
Had you asked me year ago, before the majority vote on the immigrant quotas, I would say that there is no way in hell this can pass. But what is "possible" has really changed by that majority vote (which has been legal post Lisbon treaty, but only in books and nobody really expected it to happen).
Right now I suppose that there will be some solution that will make everyone happy. I.e. France, Germany and Belgium will get a wording that will allow them to keep firearms away from the hands of their law abiding Muslim citizens while the Czech Republic will use the very same wording to "introduce changes" (i.e. paperwork) that will change nothing in reality. That is also the way we have kept shall issue concealed carry. EU rules say "a citizen needs to have a good cause". Czech interpretation is "there is no cause better than self defense", German interpretation is "show us how many murder attempts you faced in past three months in order to qualify" and French interpretation is "oh, you are on the Al Qaeda death list? Not good enough!"
RoscoeBryant
Member
The directive in a form close to its first draft by the commission is extremely unlikely to pass - however politicians (in this case especially from Netherlands, France etc.) will never admit, that they introduced something completely silly, so they will "compromise". Some changes to the current directive will be made no matter what - we can only hope (and in the meantime write to our MEP and national politicians as much as possible) that the changes are kept down to a minimum.
Yes indeed. I hope that there will not be any big impact on gun owners and definitely no more salami slicing tactics where the freedoms of law abiding Europeans are taken away bit by bit. By the way, RoscoeBryant what is the stance of the Austrian government with regards to the Commission directive?
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Snejdarek
Member
So the Czech Republic is going on offensive on the issue. Czech Ministry of Interior issued official statement that the EU Gun Ban Proposal will lead to growth of firearms black market and will enable terrorists by making black market firearms more accessible to them.
I very much recommend you guys @wyk @RoscoBryant to read this with google translate:
http://www.novinky.cz/domaci/402676-prisna-smernice-eu-muze-nahrat-teroristum-varuje-vnitro.html
The official estimate of Czech Ministry of Interior is that between 20 - 50% of gun owners will file their guns lost if the proposal is passed.
This is beautiful. I was a bit afraid that the current Minister of Interior will not go so hard, but apparently he has figured out that this is a topic that will work in his favor in autumn election if he shows strength against EU.
Thank you very much, Dutch presidency of EU.
The article ends with two former chiefs of Czech intelligence agency both saying that the proposal is "idiotic".
Finally articles like these are getting also political back-up. https://euobserver.com/opinion/131339
I very much recommend you guys @wyk @RoscoBryant to read this with google translate:
http://www.novinky.cz/domaci/402676-prisna-smernice-eu-muze-nahrat-teroristum-varuje-vnitro.html
The official estimate of Czech Ministry of Interior is that between 20 - 50% of gun owners will file their guns lost if the proposal is passed.
This is beautiful. I was a bit afraid that the current Minister of Interior will not go so hard, but apparently he has figured out that this is a topic that will work in his favor in autumn election if he shows strength against EU.
Thank you very much, Dutch presidency of EU.
The article ends with two former chiefs of Czech intelligence agency both saying that the proposal is "idiotic".
Finally articles like these are getting also political back-up. https://euobserver.com/opinion/131339
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Very good article! Glad to see strong opposition from the Czech Government toward this stupid directive.
However, I note the article mentioning the Czechs may be outvoted. From what I understand only the V4 countries and the Baltics are staunchly opposed to the directive. Are there any other countries that are opposed to further tightening of gun laws under the directive? Eg: Austria, Malta, Finland, Sweden, Bulgaria, Germany, Slovenia & Croatia?
the slavs and magyars are the only euros left with common sense and guts. they fought jihadis for centuries, and more recently nazis and communists. the first act by any overlord to turn commoners into serfs is to disarm them. i am more and more grateful for our 2a right to bear arms, and to my grandparents for leaving europe.
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Snejdarek
Member
Germany has been so far objecting on technical grounds. Other objections were very timid (Bulgaria, Romania) - basically on the level "we don't want it because it makes no sense".
V4 now wants to stop the permanent quota system by moving the decision from the Ministerial Council level to Prime Ministers Council level.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union#Configurations
According to Czech government interpretation, majority votes are possible only on Ministerial level, while on Prime Ministerial level a unanimity must be reached.
Clearly, the permanent quota system is an issue on which V4 is ready to go berserk, so the push to move it to Prime Ministerial level will take place not withstanding any collateral damage (especially as regards EU subsidies).
There might be the same effort as regards the gun directive, however the problem is that most of V4 and Baltics really don't care - they just stay in line and follow Czechs and Estonians who made it priority (and who will support the others on different issues in future in exchange).
Crawdad1
Member
Visited Praha, beautiful city, and yes the Czechs have guts!!!!
Snejdarek
Member
For anyone interested in using google translate, here is Czech governmental analysis of the current proposal.
http://www.mvcr.cz/soubor/analyza-m...e-nabyvani-a-drzeni-strelnych-zbrani-pdf.aspx
http://www.mvcr.cz/soubor/analyza-m...e-nabyvani-a-drzeni-strelnych-zbrani-pdf.aspx
Snejdarek
Member
There's been 60 minutes of prime time news channel dedicated to the proposed Gun Ban in the Czech TV. http://www.ceskatelevize.cz/ct24/do...omovni-svobodu-je-tam-zajem-na-ochrane-zivota
I could not imagine the program to be more pro-gun than it actually was.
Without saying it out loud, according to the chief of parliamentary security commission, it seems that if the proposal is passed with the carve-out for members of military reserves, Czech laws will be amended so that basically anyone in the country will be considered military reservist.
Interesting fact: Czech Ministry of Interior had repeatedly asked the European Commission to explain where their data is coming from, i.e. claim that "firearms collectors are source of black market weapons". No response whatsoever.
I could not imagine the program to be more pro-gun than it actually was.
Without saying it out loud, according to the chief of parliamentary security commission, it seems that if the proposal is passed with the carve-out for members of military reserves, Czech laws will be amended so that basically anyone in the country will be considered military reservist.
Interesting fact: Czech Ministry of Interior had repeatedly asked the European Commission to explain where their data is coming from, i.e. claim that "firearms collectors are source of black market weapons". No response whatsoever.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Perfectly proper -- the militia is the citizenry in arms, and every citizen should be prepared to do their duty if called.
This is typical -- gun control is a religion, not a rational strategy for reducing violence. And in a religion, you don't need proof.
barnbwt
member
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...in before Czech-xit 
I wouldn't be surprised if the EU/EC backs off a bit on this stuff for a little while, at least if they have any sense & realize how delicate their little house of cards is getting these days, as far as their ostensible "political authority" over member states.
TCB
I wouldn't be surprised if the EU/EC backs off a bit on this stuff for a little while, at least if they have any sense & realize how delicate their little house of cards is getting these days, as far as their ostensible "political authority" over member states.
TCB
Snejdarek
Member
There was one more interesting argument used in the tv program - regarding the proposed amendment of Czech laws that will allow police to seize guns in case of well founded suspicion that the owner has gone nuts (the owner will then have 30 days to get stamp from a relevant doctor that he is OK, subject to which the guns would be given back).
The MP was quoting a case that happened couple of years ago: An armed guy, legal owner and CCer, came to police station to report a crime. He reported that he is being harassed by aliens from space, and that his neighbor is in on it with the aliens. Especially, the neighbor has put hidden soundspeakers in his flat and keeps on harassing him through them.
He was clearly nuts but did not show any reason to believe that he is an imminent threat to any anyone. Given that, the policemen could under the existing rules call upon him to present general practitioner's report in 30 days or lose guns, but could not do much else.
He shot the "alien" neighbor dead the very next day.
How would such a situation be dealt with in your country?
The MP was quoting a case that happened couple of years ago: An armed guy, legal owner and CCer, came to police station to report a crime. He reported that he is being harassed by aliens from space, and that his neighbor is in on it with the aliens. Especially, the neighbor has put hidden soundspeakers in his flat and keeps on harassing him through them.
He was clearly nuts but did not show any reason to believe that he is an imminent threat to any anyone. Given that, the policemen could under the existing rules call upon him to present general practitioner's report in 30 days or lose guns, but could not do much else.
He shot the "alien" neighbor dead the very next day.
How would such a situation be dealt with in your country?
vaupet
Member
the leading committe, IMCO, has a draft report , 488 pages with 847 amendments, hollowing the proposed law to virtualy nonexistant.
My own little sister, co-wrote 30 of them, among those important amendments nrs 581, 604, 749, 774 and 834.
Yesterday a polisch female member of the EU commision (not EP) told some blatant lies and was exposed.
(she told the mep's that in Europe, their were 100000 homicides with legally kept firearms, whereas in total there are 66000 homicides, 1500 with LKF)
Today a young swedisch MEP told commision members they do not know what they are doing.
Biggest danger today is the Dutch presidency of the EU counsil, wich have nothing to show for their precidency and they are desperate for some scalp.
They will precide until june 30 to be followed by Slovakia, so we just have to ride this one out
I enclose the 488 pages of amendments
in short:
semi auto's can be held with licenses
full auto can be held by licenced collector and dealers
magazines are not essential parts (thus no registration)
demilitarised guns have to have a certificate if they are transfer across member states borders
medical not obliged (member states can decide for themselves here)
...
My own little sister, co-wrote 30 of them, among those important amendments nrs 581, 604, 749, 774 and 834.
Yesterday a polisch female member of the EU commision (not EP) told some blatant lies and was exposed.
(she told the mep's that in Europe, their were 100000 homicides with legally kept firearms, whereas in total there are 66000 homicides, 1500 with LKF)
Today a young swedisch MEP told commision members they do not know what they are doing.
Biggest danger today is the Dutch presidency of the EU counsil, wich have nothing to show for their precidency and they are desperate for some scalp.
They will precide until june 30 to be followed by Slovakia, so we just have to ride this one out
I enclose the 488 pages of amendments
in short:
semi auto's can be held with licenses
full auto can be held by licenced collector and dealers
magazines are not essential parts (thus no registration)
demilitarised guns have to have a certificate if they are transfer across member states borders
medical not obliged (member states can decide for themselves here)
...
Attachments
vaupet
Member
@sneydarek
our licenses are on a 5 year renewal, each time with a certificate from my GP about my mental health.
also, a declaration of a family member or neightbour are a member of my local law enforcement that I am a threat would lead to immediate "caretaking by the government" of my firearms pending further investigation.
our licenses are on a 5 year renewal, each time with a certificate from my GP about my mental health.
also, a declaration of a family member or neightbour are a member of my local law enforcement that I am a threat would lead to immediate "caretaking by the government" of my firearms pending further investigation.
Snejdarek
Member
Muslim immigrants is what Slovak government cares about (or lack thereof).
Guns is what Czech government cares about.
It is not difficult to see that Slovaks will take Czech position on guns (as they already did after some Czech lobbying in V4) and the Czech Republic will follow Slovak lead on Muslim immigration.
This may actually shape up to be one hell of an EU presidency.
Ignition Override
Member
Snejdarek:
Besides Slovakia, do any other former "Warsaw Pact" or Baltic countries have attitudes and gun laws similar to those of the Czech Republic?
I have watched a Youtube Channel "Polenar Tactical' from Slovenia where a few guys and a nice young lady--in civilian clothing--practice tactical training with a VZ-58 etc.
What stands out (to me) is that their "gun club" or school looks very American, but it is in Europe. It might really shock the Austrians next door.
Re-reading some of your comments about the French attitude, it's now clear why French people often walk home with a fresh, Sharp "spear" of bread--- it is their Only method of self-defense.
And those bread spears are good enough to help resist another mass murder by DAESH/ISIS.
Besides Slovakia, do any other former "Warsaw Pact" or Baltic countries have attitudes and gun laws similar to those of the Czech Republic?
I have watched a Youtube Channel "Polenar Tactical' from Slovenia where a few guys and a nice young lady--in civilian clothing--practice tactical training with a VZ-58 etc.
What stands out (to me) is that their "gun club" or school looks very American, but it is in Europe. It might really shock the Austrians next door.
Re-reading some of your comments about the French attitude, it's now clear why French people often walk home with a fresh, Sharp "spear" of bread--- it is their Only method of self-defense.
And those bread spears are good enough to help resist another mass murder by DAESH/ISIS.
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Snejdarek
Member
Estonia is the closest to the Czech laws - the only other EU country with shall issue concealed carry. They have "no bullet in chamber" regulations though. On the other hand, Estonians have reportedly easier access to full auto than Czechs.
Slovakia has permissive may issue concealed carry. Austria used to have permissive may issue concealed carry but the practice changed several years ago to basically no issue. Both have shall issue for home defense (no carry), so access to guns there is not as restricted as elsewhere.
When it comes to Slovenia, concealed carry is a big no-no. I am not sure whether they have home defense licensing, but their rules on sport shooting and hunting seem relatively permissive. In Slovenia, crime is virtually non-existent, so DGU is probably not an issue that would come up a lot.
In most European countries - including Europe - people can get to guns after getting through varying forms of red tape - and that mostly only for sport shooting/hunting. What really makes Czech Republic, Estonia, and to some extent also Slovakia and Austria, unique, is attitude to armed self defense.
Snejdarek
Member
"Recently very successful, 8 time Swedish champion Robert Andersson was denied a license for a new pistol. Police claimed he was not actively competing enough with his two current pistols."
http://firearms-united.com/2016/05/31/something-rotten-kingdom-sweden-spreading-part-1/
So much for Sweden being a good place for gun enthusiasts.
http://firearms-united.com/2016/05/31/something-rotten-kingdom-sweden-spreading-part-1/
So much for Sweden being a good place for gun enthusiasts.
Snejdarek
Member
According to the Czech Ministry of Interior:
https://www.novinky.cz/domaci/40513...s-odpor-cr-prosadi-prisne-omezeni-zbrani.html
- number of states that oppose new directive is falling
- France is conducting a very heavy diplomatic push on other states to support the proposal
- there are new changes and amendments added to the proposal in a fast pace, mostly by the Dutch presidency
- the Dutch are aiming at having a vote on the proposal before Slovakia takes over presidency in July; Slovakia would be left unable to change a proposal that has already been voted through
- the current version aims at ban of all guns using external magazines (i.e. also pistols)
- the pace of the changes to the proposal makes it almost impossible to adequately react; Czech Ministry of Interior has so far managed to send questions and notes on each version so far, however there was no response
- Czech government is bound by Czech Parliament's resolution to use all political and diplomatic measures necessary to prevent the adoption of the directive
https://www.novinky.cz/domaci/40513...s-odpor-cr-prosadi-prisne-omezeni-zbrani.html
- number of states that oppose new directive is falling
- France is conducting a very heavy diplomatic push on other states to support the proposal
- there are new changes and amendments added to the proposal in a fast pace, mostly by the Dutch presidency
- the Dutch are aiming at having a vote on the proposal before Slovakia takes over presidency in July; Slovakia would be left unable to change a proposal that has already been voted through
- the current version aims at ban of all guns using external magazines (i.e. also pistols)
- the pace of the changes to the proposal makes it almost impossible to adequately react; Czech Ministry of Interior has so far managed to send questions and notes on each version so far, however there was no response
- Czech government is bound by Czech Parliament's resolution to use all political and diplomatic measures necessary to prevent the adoption of the directive
RoscoeBryant
Member
Apparently, Germany proposed a ban on long guns with more than 10 and pistols with more than 20 rounds magazines (which essentially would be nearly every pistol with no fixed magazine) and additionally some idiotic requirements for sports shooting as they have in their own country. This would include licensing for every single firearm only for disciplines which you are actively competing in and have been for at least 1 year etc.
danez71
Member
Some states in the USA use the same tactic.
I've been following this thread but not commenting.
Please continue to update.
Carl N. Brown
Member
another silent US observor breaking silence
Oh, to be a fly on the wall (with interpretors) and know what the EU policy makers are discussing behind closed doors. The release of internal debates on the 1920 British Firearms Act after expiration of the 75-year seal under the Official Secrets Act show that the topic debated in imposing civilian gun control was a fear by the Crown that disgruntled WWI veterans would stage a Bolshevik revolution in Great Britain. 1920 BFA was not about crime control (illegal gun availability and gun use in crime went up after the 1920 BFA): 1920 BFA was about fear of a popular revolt by war veterans returning to a jobless economy.
Oh, to be a fly on the wall (with interpretors) and know what the EU policy makers are discussing behind closed doors. The release of internal debates on the 1920 British Firearms Act after expiration of the 75-year seal under the Official Secrets Act show that the topic debated in imposing civilian gun control was a fear by the Crown that disgruntled WWI veterans would stage a Bolshevik revolution in Great Britain. 1920 BFA was not about crime control (illegal gun availability and gun use in crime went up after the 1920 BFA): 1920 BFA was about fear of a popular revolt by war veterans returning to a jobless economy.
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