Antique firearms proposal

[LAR-15]

My senator's office is looking into whether this can be passed next year in Congress:

A BILL
To make conforming changes to the definition of ‘antique firearm’ in Federal tax and criminal law

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,


SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the `Section 5845 Act'.


SEC. 2. FINDINGS

(1) The definition of ‘antique firearm’ is not the same in Federal criminal law as it is in Federal tax law.

(2) In 1954 Congress expressly made clear in Public Law 83-591 that ‘...blunderbusses, muzzle-loading shotguns, and other ancient or antique guns..’ should not be made subject to the National Firearms Act but some still are.

(3) In 1999 Congress exempted all muzzle loading black powder firearms from the Gun Control Act but not from the National Firearms Act.

(4) Many antique rifles are not subject to the Gun Control Act but are subject to the National Firearms Act.



SEC. 3. STANDARDIZING AMENDMENT

Section 5845(g) of Chapter 53 Title 26 United States Code is rewritten to read:

‘The term “antique firearm” has the same meaning as found in Section 921(a)(16) of Chapter 44 Title 18 United States Code and includes any other muzzle loading firearm that uses black powder or a black powder substitute.’

What it does is bring the definition of 'antique firearm' in the NFA of the US inline with the definition in the GCA of the US.

If you think this change should happen, feel free to fax it or mail it to your legislators.

Have a good 2007!

 

[deadin]

How about an example or two of a muzzle loader that is subject to the NFA and not the GCA?

Dean

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Soooo, can I get a MG42 loaded with black powder rounds?

 

[Frog48]

I'm all for standardizing definitions, as long as anti-gunners dont attach riders to further restrict ownership.

 

[Gewehr98]

Hey, weren't the early Gatling Guns fired with blackpowder cartridges?

Namely, the .45-70 versions?

 

[deadin]

I think Gatlings are already exempt from the NFA (?)

 

[Kenneth Lew]

Some early examples of Maxim machineguns are subject to NFA laws but would be considered antiques being pre-1899.

ATF stated that to me.

 

[deadin]

What were the Maxims chambered in? If 8mm Mauser, that's a currently available cartridge and wouldn't that disqualify them from being an antique (by definition)? Sounds like another attempt to get around 1934.
(Not that that's a bad thing.)

 

[RCR29]

The original gatling guns are nfa exempt.

 

[Cosmoline]

But while a replica muzzleloader made last year is NFA exempt, a replica gatling gun is not exempt. No cartridge firearms made after the cutoff are antiques.

At the very least I would like to see a floating 100 year timespan, so that right now any firearm made before 1907 would be antique. Even better, any firearm made before 1950 would be out of federal law.

 

[Jim March]

A floating 100 year timespan would be great - we'd hit the WW1 period pretty soon and we start seeing some coolness there .

 

[LAR-15]

I'm all for standardizing definitions, as long as anti-gunners dont attach riders to further restrict ownership

Me too.

Any muzzle loader that uses 209 primers as it's ignition source (most of today's muzzle loaders) is subject to the NFA (antique under GCA but not NFA).

Also a lot of 'short barrelled' guns (especially shotguns) made in or before 1898 are subject to the NFA but not the GCA unless exempt as a curio and relic.

 

[Outlaws]

I'm all for standardizing definitions, as long as anti-gunners dont attach riders to further restrict ownership.

I would rather they not do this. I can't think of any firearms that fit the definition that are worth risking a new law for. I can just see it now. "Hey, you can all go out and buy 14" trumbone looking shotguns that use black powder now. ....oh but by the way, there is a new 50 cent tax per cartridge for centerfire ammunition. Enoy!"

 

[LAR-15]

Some cartridge replicas are GCA exempt but none are NFA exempt.

My bill would change that.

 

[Outlaws]

I thought all gattlin guns are exempt from teh NFA? Even ones made today. Since the physical act of cranking the handle makes it not a machine gun. Same reason HellFire and other add-ons and that dual 10/22, AK, and AR15 kit is legal.

 

[gezzer]

This is confused between

NFA of 1934

Gun control act of 1968

Not the same. I see no gain from this idea only a chance to loose what we already have.

 

[deadin]

I'm still not sure where you are trying to go with this proposed change.
As far as I can see the definitions of "antique firearm" are identical in Title 27 CFR Ch.II Part 478, 479 and Title 26 USC Ch.53 (NFA of 1934).
Title 18 USC Ch.44 (GCA off 1968) says essentially the same thing but appears to be somewhat more restrictive concerning conversions.
If you want all of them to read the same, which is to be the model, NFA of 1934 or GCA of 1968?
I think the crux of the discussion hinges on the definition of “replica” and exactly what is meant by the phrase “ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.”
Is a modern in-line muzzle loader a “replica” of anything pre-1899?
Does a modern made replica of a Spencer carbine chambered in 56-50 CF (the originals were RF) qualify? And how about a C&B replica that has had its cylinder replaced with a conversion unit in a modern cartridge chambering?

Just exactly what firearms are you trying to get qualified as “non-firearms”?

 

[Novus Collectus]

Does a modern made replica of a Spencer carbine chambered in 56-50 CF (the originals were RF) qualify? And how about a C&B replica that has had its cylinder replaced with a conversion unit in a modern cartridge chambering?

Not totally sure, but unless the replica Spencer fires a centerfire round that is not commercially available, then it is covered under the GCA.
The C&B replica is a firearm covered under the GCA as soon as it is converted to accept modern fixed ammunition and is no longer an antique. If you used a replica conversion cylinder that only fired obsolete fixed ammunition that is no longer available commercially, then it is still an antique as I uderstand it.

This only applies to the GCA since neither the C&B replica, not the Spencer are covered under the NFA anyway.

 

[deadin]

What I'm trying to get an answer to is what exactly he is trying to accomplish by requesting this ''change''. Is it to get pre-1899 SBR's, SBS's and Full Autos removed from the NFA or get them added to the GCA. The GCA doesn't really address them because the NFA already does. Any usable pre-1899 SBR's, SBS's and Full Autos ( i.e. ammo available) is already addressed in the the GCA as a no-no and you have to go to the NFA for regulations. I don't see where combining the two would get us anywhere.

 

[gezzer]

Lot's of SBR have been removed allready from the NFA by the BATF they then remain as a title 1 firearm.Note all the winchester trapers with less than 16" barrels on the C&R list.

The proposals make no sense, A machine gun is NOT going to be made a non-firearm forget it ain't gonna happen. The antique's are already considered to be C&R's transfering direct to a C&R holder after proper NFA transfer and tax.

 

[Outlaws]

The proposals make no sense, A machine gun is NOT going to be made a non-firearm forget it ain't gonna happen. The antique's are already considered to be C&R's transfering direct to a C&R holder after proper NFA transfer and tax.

Not to mention it won't make them any cheaper.

 

[LAR-15]

Definitions:

NFA 1968 definition of antique :

(g) Antique firearm
The term “antique firearm” means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.


GCA 1968 Definition:


(16) The term “antique firearm” means—

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or

(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

 

[LAR-15]

If my change is passed it would do three things:

Flat out make ANY gun made in or before 1898 NFA exempt. They are already GCA exempt and have been since 1968. Some have been exempted by the NFA as 'curio and relics', some have not.

Flat out make certain replicas NFA exempt.

Flat out make certain muzzle loading rifles, pistols, shotguns and other firearms NFA exempt, including ones that use modern primers.

 

[LAR-15]

[Lot's of SBR have been removed allready from the NFA by the BATF they then remain as a title 1 firearm.Note all the winchester trapers with less than 16" barrels on the C&R list.

Not if they were manufactured in or before 1898.

If the BATFE removes them from NFA purview (no longer subject to NFA), then they are no longer regulated by the Feds.

A 15" barrelled Winchester lever gun made in or before 1898 is not subject to the GCA at all.

It's only regulated by the NFA unless the BATFE removes it from the definition of 'firearm' in Title 26 US Code.

Then it's not regulated at the Federal level at all.

 

[deadin]

OK, I see the difference you are talking about.
I can see where a break-open (like the H&R with changeable barrels) wouldn’t fit the definition but a regular bolt Knight would. My next question would be, has the “tighter” NFA definition actually stopped anyone from obtaining an in-line? It seems to me that the NFA is primarily concerned with collecting the taxes due on weapons under its control. I don’t recall any special taxes on in-lines. Or is there some hidden agenda going on here? Could you give an example of exactly what firearm is currently and actively being restricted because of the NFA that is unrestricted under the GCA? I feel it must be something other than in-lines. (SBS/SBR in-lines? Don’t even know if such a thing is being made.) In other words, what gun is it you want that you can't get (or have to pay a tax on) because of the NFA definition of "antique"?

Dean