Exempting muzzle loaders from the NFA

[LAR-15]

I sent this to my congressperson

A BILL
To standardize the definition of ‘antique firearm’ between the Gun Control Act and the National Firearms Act.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the `_____________’

SEC. 2. STANDARDIZING AMENDMENT

(a) Section 5845(g) of chapter 53 Title 26 United States Code is amended to read:
‘The term “antique firearm” has the same meaning as found in Section 921(a)(16) of Chapter 44 Title 18 United States Code and shall also include any muzzle loading firearm that cannot fire conventional fixed cartridge ammunition regardless of the date of manufacture of such firearm.

 

[Crosshair]

Hellooooooo SBR muzzloader hunting. Looks like a good idea. Anyone who is more well versed in the law have a take on this???

 

[femoralis]

I thought blackpowder guns were already not classifed as firearms under federal law? I mean, you can order them through the mail.

 

[Crosshair]

I thought you still had to have the barrel length thing? Isn't that what this is for? Eliminate the discrepancy?

 

[beerslurpy]

Muzzleloaders are already exempted from the 200 dollars tax categories except:
-muzzle loaders that launch bombs (the bombs are DDs)
-muzzle loading machine guns (this doesnt even make sense, maybe something like a muzzleloading version of an MLRS?)

I looked at
TITLE 18 > Chapter 44 > §921
and
TITLE 26 > Subtitle E > CHAPTER 53 > Subchapter B > PART I > § 5845
and I fail to see what your proposed revision accomplishes.

More importantly, why did you waste your congressperson's time with this before vetting it here?

 

[Ivy Mike]

beerslurpy, perhaps muzzle loaded machine gun is there for something like the Metal Storm guns or perhaps a throwback to DaVinci's multi-barreled cannons?

 

[LAR-15]

Beerslurpy,

Only certain muzzle loaders (those made before 1898 or replicas thereof) are exempt from the NFA.

 

[LAR-15]

#4
Crosshair
Senior Member



Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Grand Forks, North Dakota
Posts: 1,511 I thought you still had to have the barrel length thing? Isn't that what this is for? Eliminate the discrepancy?

Yup unless it was made in or before 1898.

Plus my change exempts ANY GUN made in or before 1898 from the NFA.

So it does a lot more than you would think (I carefully drafted it)

 

[LAR-15]

-SNIP-

(g) Antique firearm
The term “antique firearm” means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898)

 

[justashooter]

short barrels on muddle loaders are specifically permitted in the Firearms And Explosives Identification Guidebook (an ATF publication - FEIGB)

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/feib/guidebook.htm

definitely worth downloading this PDF.

 

[Deanimator]

I thought you still had to have the barrel length thing? Isn't that what this is for?

It's perfectly legal to put a shoulder stock on a muzzleloading revolver.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I thought muzzleloaders were exempted from NFA restrictions
back in the Eisenhower administration?
Did 1968GCA mess things up that badly?

 

[LAR-15]

Muzzle loaders that use 209 shotgun primers (the vast majority of muzzle loaders being sold these days) are by my reading not exempt from the NFA. This all started in 1985 with the creation of the MK-85 by this guy:

http://www.knightrifles.com/AboutUs/default

Congress did make them exempt from the GCA just a few years ago.

The original proposal in 1968 was for antique guns to be made in 1870 or prior.

However to get the bill passed, the Dems in charge had to accept an amendment changing that to 1898. That was for the GCA and part of that was incoporated to the redrafting of the NFA the same year. This has not been updated to reflect advances in muzzle loading technology.

EDIT:

They can be exempted from the DD provision (have a caliber over 50) due to a provision in the DD definition:

"or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes. "

 

[buttrap]

As far as I know any muzzle loader can be still ordered by mail order and is still not considered a "firearm". Some States do restrict the sale of them but not by any federal law. Just look in a Gander Mtn cataloge.

 

[carpettbaggerr]

Yeah, and you can order one of these by mail too:

 

[c_yeager]

Look at the Lamat (sp?) revolvers. There is an AOW burried in that weapon by any definition, and yet I can order one right now and have it shipped to my front door with no paper work at all.

 

[silicon wolverine]

Thats spelled LeMat and yes you can order this dastardly mammoth of destruction through the mail. (I WANT ONE!)

SW

 

[BIGJACK]

I don;t know what the answer is but I certainly don't think the modern day "muzzle loader" using a 209 cap should be considered a "primitive weapon" anymore than should a modern day compound bow with wheels, cams and gadgets be considered a primitive archery weapon.

I have a 45 caliber CVA muzzle loader that is just as deadly accurate at 200 yards as is most of my 30-06s and can be reloaded in less than 5 seconds. I also have a compound bow that launches an arrow in excess of 300fps. My old long bow struggles to reach 150fps. Try these tricks with a truly "primitive weapon."

 

[Third_Rail]

LAR-15 - get a letter from the BATFE before saying something is or isn't legal - I've seen plenty of SBS and SBR, even a nock/volley gun, all legal since they're muzzleloading.

Heck, duck's foot pistols would be illegal if the NFA applied to muzzleloaders - and they're perfectly legal. Anywhere from 3 to 10 shots at once.

 

[LAR-15]

Do those use a 209 primer?

Thanks

 

[Carl N. Brown]

the oprant word is "primitive ignition system"

Muzzle loaders with "primitive ignition system"--matchlock, wheellock, flintlock
and traditional percussion (eg, #10 #11 and musket cao) are exempt from
the NFA limitations on barrel and overall length--if antique or modern
repliuca of antique:

Apparently, there is some question that "modern" muzzleloaders such as
those with 209 ignition, are treated differently by the GCA and the NFA.

Unfortunately, a "clarification" of the law could end up un-legalizing
muzzleloading replicas of Howdah pistols, Confederate Cavalry shotguns,
and cao'n'ball pistols with shoulder stocks!! In stead of exempting ALL
muzzleloaders from the NFA, we could end up with both traditional
antiques and replicas AND modern muzzleloadeers under the NFA.

 

[LAR-15]

How so?

Modern muzzle loaders were exempted from the GCA (but not the NFA)

How does my proposal 'un-exempt' any primitive muzzleloaders?

Thanks

 

[LAR-15]

GCA definition:

(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.


NFA definition:

(g) Antique firearm
The term “antique firearm” means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Yes, different definitions of "antique firearm" under GCA and
NFA are unnecessary and confusing.
Yes, your proposal would not descombuberate existing
legal antique muzzloaders, such as short barrels, howdah pistols,
antique pistol with shoulderstock.

What reaises fear, uncertaonty and doubt with me, is the fact
that the Firearms Owners Protection Act (1986) also froze
legal NFA full-auto regstrations by last minute amendment;
the 1989 "no sporting purpose" import ban; and the Lautenberg
Amendment: RKBA can be lost over a misdemeanor conviction
(domestic violence should be a felony instead).

You I trust; politicians I do not. And last minute, backroom deal
amendments.

 

[kjeff50cal]

Didn't CVA or Dixie Gunworks have a dust up with the BATFE over what they called a Confederate Shotgun. The percussion shotgun was a double barrel 12 ga with cut down barrels (12 inches). The BATFE "law makers" deemed it a NFA weapon even though it was a copy of a War of Northern Aggression (Civil War) arm.