Antique firearms proposal

[Professor K]

What would be cool is if a bill got passed that made all firearms made over 70-50 years ago have an "antique" status. Think, in 68, 1899 was 70 years ago.

So my proposition, why not make all the C&R guns mailable directly to you like an antique. C&R today is basically what antique was back in 68.

Also, make it a floating timespan.

 

[deadin]

C&R today is basically what antique was back in 68.

Other than the little bit about:

uses rimfire or conventional centerfire
fixed ammunition which is no longer
manufactured in the United States and
which is not readily available in the ordinary
channels of commercial trade.

 

[Professor K]

What about all the antique Mosins/Mausers/K31s/ect, also the random pre 1898 revolvers currently for sale on the antique gun market?

Antique firearms and replicas are exempted from the aforementioned restrictions. Antique firearms are defined as: any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898, and any replica of a firearm as designed above if the replica is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire ammunition, or uses fixed ammunition, which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels or commercial trade, any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. (Note: Antiques exemptions vary considerably under state laws.)

From Wikipedia.

Notice Antique firearms are defined as: any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898, so by the letter of the law, any firearm, regardless of what it is, is an antique.

For the part about using conventional ammo, that's for "replicas", like Pieta black powder revolvers. Pieta can make a replica of a black powder revolver, but Pieta cannot make the same black powder revolver in a .44 magnum version and have it be sold the same as the black powder one.

 

[deadin]

What about all the antique Mosins/Mausers/K31s/ect, also the random pre 1898 revolvers currently for sale on the antique gun market?

(One thing, Wikipedia is NOT the place to go for legal definitions.)

The rifles you mentioned are not antiques, they are Curio & Relics and require at least a FFL03 to buy from outside your own State. The one exception might be a very early Mosin-Nagant (manufactured before 1899).

As for the "using conventional ammo" bit. That's part of what this thread is about.
The NFA definition (Title 26 USC Ch.53 & Title 27 CFR Ch.II, part 479) differs from the definitions given in the GCA of 1968.

As for a "floating" antique qualification date, I don't think the gov would ever go along with it. One reason would be that if we used 70 years as the criteria, 1937 would be the current cut-off date making all of the M1911 clones into antiques. (Plus any other "replicas" of semi-autos, etc. that could be manufactured.)

 

[Professor K]

Well I meant pre 1898 rifles of those makes. You can buy pre 98 nagants, mausers, ect. You can even buy antique revolvers in .38S&W and .32S&W, along with .22lr/ect. I just bought 2 antique Mausers, an 1888 Commission rifle, and a Gew 71 from Centerfire, right to my door. The Gew 71's 11mm Mauser is kinda hard to come by, but the 88 is Spitzer marked and will fire regular 8mm Mauser.

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/gca.htm

All right, from here now.

(3) The term "firearm" means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

An Antique firearm is not a firearm, first off. In fact, my school rulebook says you cannot bring a reciever to school, but it says antique firearms are not considered "deadly weapons". So a AK reciever is a deadly weapon, yeah....

The term "destructive device" shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordinance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10; or any other device which the Secretary of the Treasury finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes.




(16) The term "antique firearm" means --


(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock,

percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or

before 1898; and

So wikipedia basically copied and pasted from the ATF's website on it. So Wiki was right.

Antique firearms are not considered firearms, no matter what they are. ATF also said it's not a DD if it's an antique firearm. I dont see any reason why an antique firearm would be considered a NFA item, as it's not even considered a firearm. The antique firearm clause of GCA does not mention any characteristics that would make an antique firearm not an antique firearm but an NFA, so I think we're safe here.

I've also seen plenty of short barreled antique muzzleloaders and stuff. I've always thought if it was made before 1898, it was allowed to basically do anything except maybe full auto and have any features it wanted. Nothing really voids antique firearm status, either, it's not like a C&R where a scope or something voids it, as long as it's marked made in 1898, it's OK.

As for the C&R becoming antiques thing, I guess it's kinda just wishful thinking. I think it's somewhat possible, though. Not many crimes have been committed by C&R stuff. Another thing I'd like is all C&Rable machineguns may be traded/sold between C&R license holders. That way, nobody gets busted for having Grandpa's old Thompson he took home/ect.

Those are just kinda neat ideas I got, I guess the ultimate dream is back to the days of no/very little gun control, pre 34.

 

[deadin]

You are right that there are pre-1899 Mosin's and Mausers. There are no K31's that fall into this category however. Just because of the age requirements and the fact there aren't many surviving pre-1899's there aren't many to be used in crimes. However, C&R's are a whole different story. There are many C&R elgible guns that are very "usable" in today's world. I can't see the Feds agreeing to turn all semi-auto pistols made before 1938 into a non-regulated "antiques". (And then compound it by adding another years worth every year.)

On the Wikipedia suggestion. I didn't go out to Wiki to read exactly what was posted there. I took what you had typed into your post as a direct quote from Wiki and it isn't word for word from the Federal Regs. (I didn't realize it was your interpretation of what was there.)

Your wish about C&R elgible machine guns is already here. The only problem is that they are still subject to the NFA and need to have the taxes paid on transfer. As for finding Grandpa's old Thompson, it still would need to be put on the National Register which has been closed since 1986, so no joy there. I'm not even sure that a pre 1899 Maxim or Colt "potato-digger" can be transfered without paying the tax.

And finally, of course, you also have to get by all the various State laws.

 

[Professor K]

Yeah, I'm talking about basically de-NFA izing C&R machine guns. Just make them directly tradeable as C&R guns.

 

[LAR-15]

My proposal would make any firearm made in or before 1898 NFA exempt.

Not sure how many 'machine guns' that would include