Antiqued, Defarbed Italian G&G on GB

[expat_alaska]

I am not a fan of defarbed pistols, but I'll make an exception for this one.

Here is a nice looking, defarbed, antiqued G&G and the seller is honest about what it is and what he did to create it. I really like the way he did the grip profile, and there is no divot on the bottom of the backstrap for a shoulder stock, and says he turned the barrel part round from an octagonal original.

Professional looking (modern font) 1964 prominently stamped on the barrel lug, frame, and cylinder, with partials in many places:

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/683849954

I think the guy spent a lot of time on this. Best one I have seen yet.

I have zero affiliation with the seller.

Jim

 

[Crawdad1]

On that one I would have came in on a hidden reserve and the very lowest allowed minimum bid. I think that high minimum bid is going to turn people away.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

It does look good!

I wish the pictures weren't so dark.

 

[expat_alaska]

On that one I would have came in on a hidden reserve and the very lowest allowed minimum bid. I think that high minimum bid is going to turn people away.

I agree, but I really think the guy did much more work on this project than many more other sellers do on theirs. I guess it comes down to quality in the mind of the beholder. Most sellers on GB are just looking to pass off their extras. I really don't think this is the case here. No one is going to put that amount of time and energy into a pistol without asking a fair price. One must think of money and sweat equity. I have a 2015 [CN] Pietta G&G and it looks like a new Pietta 1851 Navy type pistol right out of the box, and all I had to do was fit the wedge properly.

IMO, this one is one of the best repro G&G's I have ever seen that looks like it came straight from the ACW. I have several books, photos, and papers on the Confederate made revolvers and this one very closely approximates an original G&G, right down to the grip profile. I think the guy who made it had that specifically in mind. I would have liked to have seen a bit of shrunken grip wood (as the wood for the original G&G pistols was fairly green when produced and installed), but that can be altered as it is a repro and no harm done.

I hope the guy gets his money's worth.

Jim

 

[bannockburn]

Jim

I agree; very nicely done Griswold and Gunnison repro revolver. Thanks for sharing.

 

[LonesomePigeon]

It looks like it might be one of the Steven Krolick defarbs that Lodgewood sells.
http://www.lodgewood.com/Custom-Second-Model-Griswold-Gunnison-Revolver_p_2854.html

They also do Spiller & Burr and Tucker & Sherrard revolvers.
http://www.lodgewood.com/Custom-Spiller-and-Burr-Revolver--SOLD_p_2853.html
http://www.lodgewood.com/Custom-Low...te-Tucker-Sherrard-Revolver--SOLD_p_2828.html

I like them but to be honest I would rather have one that looks new, like it would have looked when they were first made.

 

[expat_alaska]

It looks like it might be one of the Steven Krolick defarbs that Lodgewood sells.
I like them but to be honest I would rather have one that looks new, like it would have looked when they were first made.

If so, he is offering it at a loss, and Lodgewood is presently out-of-stock.

New, like this? Certainly cheaper than Lodgewood.



LP, if you are interested in a new repro:

I do not think Pietta has made them since 2015.

EMF seems to have at least one for $220, but their shipping is somewhat expensive.

http://www.emf-company.com/store/pc/1851-GRISWOLD-GUNNISON-36-7-1-2-p1859.htm

 

[expat_alaska]

That G&G sold for $425 yesterday.

I have been in email contact with the seller and also has a Dance .36 and an L&R .36 for sale in the same genre (antiqued and defarbed).

It looks like it might be one of the Steven Krolick defarbs that Lodgewood sells.

Kudos, LP! You are spot on. Via email, the seller told me that Krolick was indeed the creator of the G&G, but that Krolick created it for the seller, not for Lodgewood.

The Dance and the L&R he wants to sell were also created by Krolick. He does not remember what the manufacturer of the 4 pistols he gave to Krolick for 2 Dance and 2 L&R for antiquing and defarbing was, and he wants to sell one of each and keep the other 2.

He offered to sell a Dance to me for $450 with free shipping, and I declined because I don't know the manufacturer or date of the original gun, and I am not into defarbed pieces.

I think he is more of a collector and not a shooter, as am I.

Just info in case anyone here is interested.

Jim

 

[Crawdad1]

Thanks Jim, I'm kind of surprised though. But possibly the bidder might have been a reenactor from the N/SSA crowd that bought that one as they like those defarbed pieces. Possibly a Confederate Officer or cavalryman.

What do you think?

 

[kozak6]

I dunno. Isn't most of the current interest in this sort of thing driven by "Hell on Wheels?"

 

[drobs]

Couple guns on GB that some here might find interesting:

Uberti
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/687250248


Navy Arms:
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/686472751

Edit: I think there is a 3rd one.

 

[Tommygunn]

Top link appears to be a Leech & Rigdon, not Colt 1862 as listed. Nice, but I don't like L&Rs with Colt type scenes embellished on the cylinders. I have an old Uberti L&R from 25 years ago with the plain cylinder.
What's with Uberti on this?

 

[expat_alaska]

I dunno. Isn't most of the current interest in this sort of thing driven by "Hell on Wheels?"

Not to be sarcastic but the Hell On Wheels "G&G" was nothing more than a repro 1860 Army .44 with a brass frame.

Most people watching HOW wouldn't know anything about the various model pistols produced by both sides. Poor series, BTW.

My interest with the G&G was spurred by reading decades-old ACW books about Confederate pistols.

Jim

 

[expat_alaska]

Thanks Jim, I'm kind of surprised though. But possibly the bidder might have been a reenactor from the N/SSA crowd that bought that one as they like those defarbed pieces. Possibly a Confederate Officer or cavalryman.

What do you think?

Crawdad, I have had no experience with re-enactments, and I think from past posts on various threads that you do. I do believe they strive for as much authenticity as possible, right down to the clothing/uniforms or lack thereof.

My opinion on this is a S.W.A.G. (scientific wild a$$ guess).

I defer to you.

Jim

 

[expat_alaska]

Couple guns on GB that some here might find interesting:

Uberti
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/687250248

Navy Arms:
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/686472751

Top link appears to be a Leech & Rigdon, not Colt 1862 as listed. Nice, but I don't like L&Rs with Colt type scenes embellished on the cylinders. I have an old Uberti L&R from 25 years ago with the plain cylinder.
What's with Uberti on this?

Once again we find a seller on GB that has no clue. I cannot read the date code on the frame but there are no proof marks (2) on the right side of the frame, but they do appear below the serial number. Indicative of a 70's-80's pistol, and the serial begins with an "A". Back in the day, Navy Arms, EMF, FIE, et al, imported pistols made by Uberti and ASM, among others, and there really was no attention paid to authenticity as we do today. Of two pistols in the shipment to the importer, one might have a plain cylinder and the next one an engraved cylinder. As long as it looked "period correct", it was good to go for sale. The only 1862 Colts were the Pocket Police .36 and the Pocket Navy .36, both with rebated cylinders and smaller in size than the 1851 Navy type, and with completely different style barrels/load levers.

(Some folks think that the Pocket Navy was manufactured starting in 1865, but I have my doubts because both the Pocket Police and the Pocket Navy had trigger guards stamped ".36 CAL" on the left side rear, and the serial numbers of both kind of leap-frogged throughout production.)

You are correct that it is not a L&R in that it has an engraved cylinder.

Navy Arms:
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/686472751

The Navy Arms .36 is a representation of a G&G, but back then Val Forgett was not interested in providing a historical model of a G&G. He just wanted to sell as many variations as he could for a larger market, thus the plain cylinder and the part octagon/part round barrel on a brass frame.

 

[expat_alaska]

This is the message/questions I sent to the seller just a bit ago:

"Sir, there is no such thing as a Uberti 1862 revolver on the 1851 Navy frame as you show in your offering. The 1851 Navy replicas have a full octagon barrel, not the part octagon/part round barrel on your pistol. If it had a plain (non-engraved) cylinder, you could offer it as a Leech and Rigdon replica. It is also an older Uberti pistol as the proof marks are not on the right side of the frame but are found below the serial number, and the load lever pivot screw enters from the right side of the frame. It looks NIB and all of the screw slots are very good. The bid price is not out of line for a collector of Uberti pistols. What is the date code (alpha characters) on the right side of the frame? Does it have any importer marks anywhere (Navy Arms, EMF, FIE, or others)? It does not show in the pics, but is Quality Mfg. the importer and is it stamped as such? Thank you for you time, sir. Jim"

I'll see if I get a reply. The seller's pics don't appear to show any Uberti markings so he just might be taking it for granted that it is. The load lever/rammer pivot screw enters from the right side. Maybe an ASM? Who knows?

I am getting almost as bad as G Dog sniffing out these guys. I try to be as polite as possible, but for me that might be a stretch.

Jim

 

[expat_alaska]

I dunno. Isn't most of the current interest in this sort of thing driven by "Hell on Wheels?"

Anyone with a limited knowledge of replica Colt type percussion revolvers knows that one can take a Pietta 1851 Navy "Reb" brass framed .44 with the rebated cylinder/cut water table and mate it to a Pietta 1860 Army .44 barrel/load lever/rammer with little effort and come up with Cullen Bohannon's supposed Griswold and Gunnison in the series. Such Bravo Sierra.

I saw a video wherein the firearms expert on the set claimed that Griswold produced 100,000 pistols. Griswold was probably the most prolific handgun producer in the South but I think his total production was less than 3600 pieces before Sherman's raid and then destroyed his factory.

I want a job as the set armorer for these shows. I would be more knowledgeable than that guy.



Enjoy, fans.

Jim

 

[Crawdad1]

I've been shooting these revolvers a long time but some people still say that the movie 'Jeremiah Johnson' started the 'Hawken' craze back in the 70s, as well as the remake of the movie 'Last of the Mohicans' started a mini 'Lehigh' craze when that movie came out.

This is a Lehigh,

http://www.allenmartinrifles.net/gallery-of-guns/schimmel-rifle-lehigh-valley/

I always like the revolvers however.

 

[drobs]

One more:
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/685705399
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/687941000

 

[armoredman]

Pardon me, totally ignorant question - what is defarbed?

 

[bannockburn]

expat_alaska

I saw a video wherein the firearms expert on the set claimed that Griswold produced 100,000 pistols. Griswold was probably the most prolific handgun producer in the South but I think his total production was less than 3600 pieces before Sherman's raid and then destroyed his factory.

That's about the same number I typically found in reference to Griswold and Gunnison revolver production. Next was probably Leech and Rigdon at around 1500 and Spiller and Burr with 1360 guns produced. I think the fewest guns made was by Columbus Firearms Manufacturing Company with maybe 100 Colt Model 1851 copies built. James D. Julia had one for sale on their auction website last year.

armoredman

As I understand it to "Defarb" in this instance would be to undo or reverse something like the appearance of a modern reproduction black powder revolver into something that would look more authentic like the original model from which it was copied. This might entail removing all manufacturer markings, proof marks, "Made in Italy" and "Black Powder Only" inscriptions from the gun and then refinishing it so that it more greatly resembled the actual, original revolver.

 

[expat_alaska]

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/687941000

The seller knows exactly what he has. Even though there are no bids yet, the starting bid is not even close to outrageous at $175 w/ 6D left and no reserve.

That's about the same number I typically found in reference to Griswold and Gunnison revolver production. Next was probably Leech and Rigdon at around 1500 and Spiller and Burr with 1360 guns produced. I think the fewest guns made was by Columbus Firearms Manufacturing Company with maybe 100 Colt Model 1851 copies built. James D. Julia had one for sale on their auction website last year.

Thomas Leech and Charles Rigdon severed their partnership after producing ~1100 guns. It seems Rigdon produced ~400 more pistols to fulfill the Confederate Government contract (with no cylinder safety pins), and then produced ~1000 more with the 12 stop-slot cylinder as Rigdon and Ansley, for a total of ~2500 revolvers. Other than that omission, I believe you are spot on with your numbers, except that if Schneider and Glassick, George Todd, and Augusta Machine Works production were added together they probably produced less than Columbus' 100 pieces, IIRC.

As I understand it to "Defarb" in this instance would be to undo or reverse something like the appearance of a modern reproduction black powder revolver into something that would look more authentic like the original model from which it was copied. This might entail removing all manufacturer markings, proof marks, "Made in Italy" and "Black Powder Only" inscriptions from the gun and then refinishing it so that it more greatly resembled the actual, original revolver.

Well put! Your definition/description of defarbing is very good, sir.

Jim

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

The seller knows exactly what he has...
Jim

Jim, I'm not convinced he does. If he did, I'd expect him to mention Griswold & Gunnison in the listing. After all as mentioned, "Hell on Wheels" has spiked the interest in the G&G's .
Heck, just calling any old C&B revolver a Griswold & Gunnison on Gunbroker would probably add $50 to the selling price no mater what it is.
I agree the price is reasonable enough though for someone in the market for one.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

For the In Popular Culture angle, Internet Movie Firearms Database IMFDb has a page on the Griswold & Gunnison with links to IMFDb pages on the movies/TV shows featuring the G&G:
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Griswold_&_Gunnison_Revolver

 

[expat_alaska]

Jim, I'm not convinced he does. If he did, I'd expect him to mention Griswold & Gunnison in the listing. After all as mentioned, "Hell on Wheels" has spiked the interest in the G&G's .
Heck, just calling any old C&B revolver a Griswold & Gunnison on Gunbroker would probably add $50 to the selling price no matter what it is.
I agree the price is reasonable enough though for someone in the market for one.

I must disagree in part. The seller knows it is a Navy Arms 1851 Navy brass framed.36 caliber pistol made by Pietta in 1980. That is an honest representation of the pistol. I agree he may have asked more for it if he represented it as a G&G, but it is not marked as such, so uninformed buyers not knowledgeable about G&G may have questioned that. IIRC, the only pistol marketed as a G&G was the 2015-2016 Pietta G&G, of which I have one with the box marked as such, but no where on the pistol is it marked G&G or anything similar, and I don't think Pietta is offering them anymore as of this date.

If a buyer of any pistol claimed as a G&G that has not done his/her homework and buys a Bohannon faux copy, that is their problem. If they watch HOW and want an 1851 Navy .44 brass replica with an 1860 Army .44 barrel, those are easy to reproduce. I can foresee a whole new group thinking that his pistol is a true G&G because it was on TV and an actor referred to it as a Griswold when singling Bohannan out as a former rebel.

Think of it this way: there are many G&G representative pistols (on GB alone) that fit the description of a replica G&G. Educated buyers/bidders will know that and not show their hand and thus get a better deal, and if they win the auction, they can then gloat that they got a prize. I would, and the slackers will wonder why because they are not "edumacated" and got left in the dust.

Jim