Antiqued, Defarbed Italian G&G on GB

[expat_alaska]

For the In Popular Culture angle, Internet Movie Firearms Database IMFDb has a page on the Griswold & Gunnison with links to IMFDb pages on the movies/TV shows featuring the G&G:
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Griswold_&_Gunnison_Revolver

That appears to me as an authentic G&G in the photo. Very nice shape, surprisingly.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Jim

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Well, I wish IMFDb had the same photo standards as Wikipedia; I cannot find the provenance of the photo.

 

[Jim Watson]

IMFDb says "The Griswold and Gunnison Confederate Revolver was produced in Griswoldville, Georgia between 1862-1864. It's predecessor was known as the Griswold & Grier (which is really the same gun, just different markings), but the designer, Samuel Griswold, later rechristened it as the Griswold & Gunnison, naming it after his business partner, Arvin Nye Gunnison."

In my youth, they were commonly referred to as Griswold and Griers. I have read that Grier was Mr Griswold's son in law and the company lawyer, so Griswold and Gunnison is surely more descriptive of the revolver, but Grier was there.

I know a Grier who comes from Eufaula, AL, with family history in Georgia. Very annoying, I cannot get him interested in the genealogy to tell if his family is related to the gunmaker.

 

[kBob]

All this talk of Confederate revolvers just adds to my agrrivation......

CSA imported more Kerr revolvers from LAC than the total amount of made in The South revolvers. Yet no one makes a Kerr repro. A CSA officer or Cavalryman would be TWICE as likely to be armed with a Kerr as a G&G.

The Kerr system prevent cap debris from jamming things up. The Kerr also had a bushing on the face of the cylinder to prevent fouling the cylinder like on Colts and Remingtons. Most Kerr were .44 (though with shorter lower volume chambers than .44 Colts and Remingtons) as opposed to the Home Built .36s of the CSA.

As to G&Gs, if I ever do get one in proper .36 cal I think it would be a hoot to drive up to the Griswaldville marker, trot out into the woods, dig a hole bury it, then dig it up so I could honestly say I dug it up at Griswaldville Italian marks and all. Pictures of course with the historical marker.

I know that Griswald had a high number of failed parts as a result of the use of unskilled slave labor and wonder if in fact there may be lumps of rusted into a solid mass parts around and about the creek that was down hill from the "factory"

-kBob

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

Pardon me, totally ignorant question - what is defarbed?

In the re-enactment community the term "farby" means something close but not authentic. The term is derisive in nature and is reputed to originate with the expression, "Far be it for me to comment, but your..." and then they'd tell you what's wrong with your outfit, gear, gun, etc.
To de-farb is to make something, clothes, gear, gun look more accurate and of the time period .
Removing the new marks of manufacturing,adding correct marks, aging the finish and making it look used are some of the things they will do for a gun.

 

[expat_alaska]

All this talk of Confederate revolvers just adds to my aggravation......

CSA imported more Kerr revolvers from LAC than the total amount of made in The South revolvers. Yet no one makes a Kerr repro. A CSA officer or Cavalryman would be TWICE as likely to be armed with a Kerr as a G&G.
-kBob

Your points are well-taken, sir, however the Kerr is a secondary Confederate pistol because it was made in England unlike the "inferior" Remingtons, Colts, and Confederate copies and imported.

The same can be said for the LeMat pistols as a secondary Confederate pistol.

I confess that I have paid little attention to the Kerr (pronounced "Carr") and my info comes from a book "Confederate Handguns" (Albaugh, Benet, Simmons, 1963), in which a total of 3 pages are devoted to it (pp 180-182).

Hypothetically, if a somewhat large amount of Remington NMA, Colt Navy, and Colt Army revolvers were captured from Union forces by Confederate forces and used by them, would those be considered Confederate revolvers?

How many Italian replica Spiller and Burr, Rogers and Spencer, and Starr SA and DA pistols have been offered and not sold in any quantity?

It's called the free market. Manufacturers will only make something that they can make a profit on, and presently it is only Uberti and Pietta that are producing the majority of Italian copies. It takes a lot of money to CNC a new replica firearm and they expect a good return on their buck.

It would take very little insofar as changes to create a Pietta J.H. Dance .36 (which is historically correct): mill off the recoil shields on a 1851 Navy .36 prior to color case and it is done. (Pietta does/did make a J.H Dance .44 using a modified 1851 Navy frame and a larger diameter non-rebated cylinder. To me, a complete oxymoron.) The same ease in making a Tucker and Sherrard using an Uberti 2nd Model Colt Dragoon squareback without milling the load aperture on the barrel lug and a smooth cylinder (and there has been much discussion about the lack of aperture since most of those pistols were assembled from parts after the ACW).

The problem is that few buyers are looking for these pistols, let alone ever having heard of them. So where is the market?

I collect newer CNC Pietta 1851 Navy type .36 revolvers because the parts are all interchangeable, which allows me to create many variations within a few minutes.

Sorry you are so aggravated, kBob.

I am opening a cold brew now. Salut!

Jim

 

[Jim Watson]

Where is the dividing line between defarbed and antiqued and fake?
I have seen the latter at a gun show.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

Where is the dividing line...

Even if you do a pretty extensive Defarb of an Italian Replica, it will still have Metric threads. No one worth their salt is going to "Authenticate" a Colt, Remington, etc C&B revolver with Metric threads. If it still has Metric threads, I for one would not call it a fake. That is a pretty tell tale indicator that is very easy to ID.

 

[expat_alaska]

Where is the dividing line between defarbed and antiqued and fake?
I have seen the latter at a gun show.

IMO, defarbed and antiqued pistols are usually displayed as such by a seller, with all of the work acknowledged by the seller including what the original pistol was so that the buyer would know where to procure parts (such as the hand, bolt, bolt/trigger spring, et al) if it was in need of repair on down the road.

To me, a fake is something that a dishonest seller is trying to pass off as an original, and looking for a rube to snatch it up.

I don't like defarbed pistols because many folks getting into the hobby are not educated and may be lured to something they think is an original ACW gun when it is not, usually at an inflated price. Buyer beware.

Just educate yourself insofar as what specific replica or original you are looking for. Many books and online sources are available.

Jim

 

[Jim Watson]

As I said, I have seen a repro aged and offered as original for a good stout price at a gun show.
There are many people with more money and enthusiasm than knowledge and they are getting sucked in by overgraded, misrepresented, and outright fake guns. A wheeler dealer in 1911s once replied to my suggestion that restorers mark their work with your suggestion. Read up or get cheated.

 

[expat_alaska]

Even if you do a pretty extensive Defarb of an Italian Replica, it will still have Metric threads. No one worth their salt is going to "Authenticate" a Colt, Remington, etc C&B revolver with Metric threads. If it still has Metric threads, I for one would not call it a fake. That's is a pretty tell tale indicator that is very easy to ID.

That may be true for the pre-2000 Pietta pistols, but I think Pietta uses SAE (non metric) threads these days. I have no idea insofar as your term "authen ticate" concerns. Colt will not letter a repro.

I underlined part of your post and am confused by it. Please explain, sir.

Jim

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

"Authenticate" - I simply meant that in the literal use of the word

Google says it means this...
au·then·ti·cate
ôˈTHen(t)əˌkāt/
verb
verb: authenticate; 3rd person present: authenticates; past tense: authenticated; past participle: authenticated; gerund or present participle: authenticating
prove or show (something, especially a claim or an artistic work) to be true or genuine.
"they were invited to authenticate artifacts from the Italian Renaissance"
synonyms: verify, validate, prove, substantiate, corroborate, confirm, support, back up, attest to, give credence to

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

My statement "If it still has Metric threads, I for one would not call it a fake." in in reference to the question that was asked "Where is the dividing line between defarbed and antiqued and fake?"
If the piece still has easily identifiable characteristics that prove it to be a repro and not an original I would not call it a fake (derogatory), I'd call it defarbed (without malice)

 

[Jim Watson]

Ah, but what is "easily identifiable"? Do I need your thread gauge? How about the major and minor axes of the ellipsoidal trigger guard? How about the French curve of the plow handle butt? How about the font of the roll marks? Is the ship in the Naval Scene rigged right? I know people have cited stuff like that to authenticate or debunk a revolver.

 

[Crawdad1]

Uberti revolver nipples are standard thread. Whereas the Pietta is metric.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/64/1

I would think that the rest of the threads are standard on the Uberti.

 

[Crawdad1]

This Pietta 1860 Army I'm selling at TOTW has been defarbed but just the barrel, the frame still has the proof marks and date stamp.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

I know from experience that the screws that hold the back strap/grip frame to the frame proper on several Piettas, Ubertis, and some others are metric M4 screws. I've at least half assumed that they all are, but I suppose there might be some examples that are not. That said, I would consider trying to thread an M4 screw into a hole as a simple enough test that doesn't take expensive equipment or all that extensive knowledge to administer. One thing is for sure, if an M4 screw fits, it's not an original Civil War era piece made in the USA.

 

[Jim Watson]

Hmm. Probably worth trying on a multi-kilobuck period piece.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

Jim,
I'd suggest if you are contemplating spending multi-kilobucks on a piece you are not knowledgeable enough about to authenticate, you should probably consult with an expert much more knowledgeable than yourself that you trust.

 

[Jim Watson]

Yes, I think that is what the collectors' market has come down to. Prices for the Good Stuff are so high that if you are not expert in the field, you had better hire one. Which kind of takes the thrill of the hunt out of it. Answer an ad, call your consultant, all you do is write the checks.

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

Yes, I think that is what the collectors' market has come down to. Prices for the Good Stuff are so high that if you are not expert in the field, you had better hire one. Which kind of takes the thrill of the hunt out of it. Answer an ad, call your consultant, all you do is write the checks.

Or get taken to the cleaners paying big bucks for the same gun I can buy all day long for less than $300.00. It's your money & your loss.Just don't come crying after the fact and expect any sympathy from me. I would laugh in your face and call you a dumb rube.

 

[Panzerschwein]

LOVE that Grizzy!! I don't think there's anything wrong with defarbs, so long as they aren't passed as genuine.