I was at the shop today and saw a really nice like new CZ 75. I thought it was a B model because of the trigger guard shape; however the slide appeared to have no B markings. Were there models released like these or is it an older slide placed on a newer frame? Is it even possible to do so?
Any CZ Pre-B's come with newer trigger guard?
- Thread starter zachsm
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schmeky
Member
I have one of these. They call it a transitional model. Mine has the rounded trigger guard and the firing pin block. The slide is marked, "CZ-75", there is no "B" suffix. Does it look like this?
Cliff47
Member
As CZ was transitioning from the Pre-B to the true "B" model, there were a number of features (cocking serrations, top of slide profile, sight profile and front sight dovetail, internal dimensions of the magazine well, spur hammer to commander hammer, the recurved trigger guard, and finally the firing pin block) that were incorporated. CZ seems to have included these changes in a random fashion, and it must have been using whatever was making it into the production line first. It would be a real help if CZ would put out a list of which feature was implemented when so that us lowly lovers of the brand could definitively sequence our collections of Pre-B, transitional and B models. I'm sure that there are other features that were included, but those are just the ones that come to mind at present.
Ash
Member
Yes, there are transitional pre-"B"s that look like "B"s except for the roll pin in the slide for the block and have the older logo. I owned one once that was a vet bringback from Germany (with DOD papers).
In reality, they still exist today in the form of the CZ-85 combat, which has that contour but no firing pin block.
Ash
In reality, they still exist today in the form of the CZ-85 combat, which has that contour but no firing pin block.
Ash
A pistol with a firing pin block is a B model, and a B model is a pistol with a firing pin block. A 75/85 series pistol with a firing pin block cannot be either a "pre-B" (Type A) or a "Transitional."
A lot of the confusion stems from the "pre-B" label. There is no such thing, and it is misleading, since it suggests a positive date(s). CZ-UB doesn't use this term at all. CZ-UB uses the terms "Type A" and "Type B" for the 75/85 series. Type A pistols don't have a firing pin block. Type As are still in production (85 Combat).
CZ-UB doesn't use the term "Transitional," either. CZF Members coined that for the pistols produced in 1993-1994 that do not have firing pin blocks, but have some features associated with Type B models, such as the square triggerguard.
In general:
1977-1992 Type A
1993-1994 Transitional
1995-present Type B
For more information:
http://czechpistols82792.yuku.com/topic/14699/t/CZ-History-and-Terminology.html
A lot of the confusion stems from the "pre-B" label. There is no such thing, and it is misleading, since it suggests a positive date(s). CZ-UB doesn't use this term at all. CZ-UB uses the terms "Type A" and "Type B" for the 75/85 series. Type A pistols don't have a firing pin block. Type As are still in production (85 Combat).
CZ-UB doesn't use the term "Transitional," either. CZF Members coined that for the pistols produced in 1993-1994 that do not have firing pin blocks, but have some features associated with Type B models, such as the square triggerguard.
In general:
1977-1992 Type A
1993-1994 Transitional
1995-present Type B
For more information:
http://czechpistols82792.yuku.com/topic/14699/t/CZ-History-and-Terminology.html
Ash
Member
True, but saying "Type A" and "Type B" don't quite describe them as well. Pre "B" does indeed mean the pistol was made prior to the firing pin block being installed. Transitional does refer to a pistol that aesthetically resembles the newer "B" models but without the block.
It is an easy way to describe the pistols. After all, there was no such thing as a CZ-75 until the "B" models were established. They were called Vzor 75's, which would correctly be shortened to VZ-75's, or simply called Model 75's.
Ash
It is an easy way to describe the pistols. After all, there was no such thing as a CZ-75 until the "B" models were established. They were called Vzor 75's, which would correctly be shortened to VZ-75's, or simply called Model 75's.
Ash
I'm not saying that they aren't helpful descriptions. I am saying that they cause confusion from time to time. Also, when communicating with CZ-USA, CZ-UB, or CZ shooters abroad, they won't have any idea of what you are talking about. The "pre-B" and "Transitional" terms were born of the internet.
Concrete Examples: 1988 85 Lux and 2008 85 Combat. Which is the pre-B? Is it both, or neither? There isn't a Type B 85 Lux, just like there isn't a Type B 85 Combat. The difference is that the Lux model was discontinued prior to 1995. If I call the 1988 85 Lux a pre-B, does that suggest that an 85B Lux once existed?
Ash
Member
If you are getting into the nuances of specific variations of various models beyond the basic conversation, you are already among those who know the differences and specifics and so "Pre B" is not even going to be part of the lexicon.
And by now, if CZ-USA doesn't understand our terms, they are being intentionally obtuse. I know Angus knows the terms (is he still at CZ?)
Transition is indeed an internet term. But it is a good one. Okay, so someone in Germany might not know what it means, but if he's discussed CZ's online, he has had many chances to be introduced to the term. It is helpful because the Czech terms are entirely too vague. There is no term at all for the original design of the Model 75, so what ever you call it, it will not be official. Short rail seems to work okay, though.
Other terms like "Turk" are not official, though "military" is. Yet, "Military" is vague, because the P-01 is military issued, just as the 1996 Turks. Of course, some "Military's" were dated 2001 while other 75's were made that year that were not "Military" models. Yet, a 1996-made CZ with "ergo" grips is a Turk. That actually does apply to the Turkish military contract pistol overrun. The 01 stamped 75's were sold as "military" models but were never involved with the Turkish contract. They aren't Turks. Semantics? Yeah, very probably. But, just because the collector/shooter comes up with a term does not invalidate it. In many cases, it is far more accurate than the original designers/sellers establish.
Ash
And by now, if CZ-USA doesn't understand our terms, they are being intentionally obtuse. I know Angus knows the terms (is he still at CZ?)
Transition is indeed an internet term. But it is a good one. Okay, so someone in Germany might not know what it means, but if he's discussed CZ's online, he has had many chances to be introduced to the term. It is helpful because the Czech terms are entirely too vague. There is no term at all for the original design of the Model 75, so what ever you call it, it will not be official. Short rail seems to work okay, though.
Other terms like "Turk" are not official, though "military" is. Yet, "Military" is vague, because the P-01 is military issued, just as the 1996 Turks. Of course, some "Military's" were dated 2001 while other 75's were made that year that were not "Military" models. Yet, a 1996-made CZ with "ergo" grips is a Turk. That actually does apply to the Turkish military contract pistol overrun. The 01 stamped 75's were sold as "military" models but were never involved with the Turkish contract. They aren't Turks. Semantics? Yeah, very probably. But, just because the collector/shooter comes up with a term does not invalidate it. In many cases, it is far more accurate than the original designers/sellers establish.
Ash
Exactly. So why learn it all incorrectly in the first place?
All I am trying to say is that the terms "pre-B" and "transitional" aren't in general use, yet. While the term "transitional" is helpful and descriptive, I think the term "pre-B" is probably more problematic than helpful.
This isn't a CZ thing. Call Smith & Wesson's Performance Center and see how many times they correct you if you call it a "pencil" barrel instead of "tapered."
Ash
Member
It is just plain too easy to refer to it as a "Pre B" CZ, as unless it is a CZ-85 Combat, it will have the block these days. Me, I don't mind calling it what it is. If CZ was kind enough to have a primer on their sight of the characteristics, that would be one thing. But nowhere does CZ or CZ-USA mention "Type A" or "Type B". So, while there might be "correct terms," the source of information for these correct terms is not readily found.
So, when users come up with their own terms, and "Pre B" is a very common one that means a CZ-75 without a firing pin block, and "transitional" which means a CZ-75 that aesthetically resembles a currently-produced CZ-75b, the terms are not only equally valid, they are also the only ones generally available.
Ash
So, when users come up with their own terms, and "Pre B" is a very common one that means a CZ-75 without a firing pin block, and "transitional" which means a CZ-75 that aesthetically resembles a currently-produced CZ-75b, the terms are not only equally valid, they are also the only ones generally available.
Ash
CZ 75: The Birth of a Legend
by David Pazdera and Jan Skramoussky
ISBN 80-239-4595-5
58 pages, paperback (@ 7"x10")
1st ed. (c) 2005 by Ceska Zbrojovka, Printed in Czech Republic
This is the "official" publication on the 75/85 series. The ISBN above is for the English version.
Again, it's like you are saying if enough people are incorrect, then their error somehow becomes correct. I don't get it...
Ash
Member
Yes you do. You do get, even if you would prefer the official Ceska Zbrojovka terms be used. But if CZ isn't going to use their own website or pistol manuals to set the record straight, it is not up to the consumer to buy another book to learn what they call it.
Even so, that is a 2005 copyright date. "Pre B" and "Transitional" have been bandied about long before 2005.
Ash
Even so, that is a 2005 copyright date. "Pre B" and "Transitional" have been bandied about long before 2005.
Ash
briang2ad
Member
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2005
- Messages
- 683
Here ya go...
Here is my "A" model with square (new with the B model) trigger guard - known on the CZ Forum as a "transitional model" - I don't call it a PreB, but it kinda is....
It was really a transitional model. The only "B" features are the sights (good thing), square guard (bad thing), and slanted grooves on the slide (bad INHO). It came with a PreB safety and slide stop. I switched out the slide stop to keep with the slanted lones of the slide serratione. Then I took a chance and ordered a "B" safety because I did see a cutout in the frame for the detent. After a bit of smoothing and fitting - it worked. The machining was even in between a B and a PreB - ubt there was enough for the B safety. This makes it look more B than preB, and it is much easier to take down the B safety in a detail strip.
Its one of my favorites, and has an excellent trigger for a CZ.
The CZ above from Smeky is a "B" model made WELL AFTER the transition - a limited run was made of CZ 75 Retros. These are cosmetically similar to PreBs, but mechanically are "B's". They were produced 8-10 years after the "transition."
Here is my "A" model with square (new with the B model) trigger guard - known on the CZ Forum as a "transitional model" - I don't call it a PreB, but it kinda is....
It was really a transitional model. The only "B" features are the sights (good thing), square guard (bad thing), and slanted grooves on the slide (bad INHO). It came with a PreB safety and slide stop. I switched out the slide stop to keep with the slanted lones of the slide serratione. Then I took a chance and ordered a "B" safety because I did see a cutout in the frame for the detent. After a bit of smoothing and fitting - it worked. The machining was even in between a B and a PreB - ubt there was enough for the B safety. This makes it look more B than preB, and it is much easier to take down the B safety in a detail strip.
Its one of my favorites, and has an excellent trigger for a CZ.
The CZ above from Smeky is a "B" model made WELL AFTER the transition - a limited run was made of CZ 75 Retros. These are cosmetically similar to PreBs, but mechanically are "B's". They were produced 8-10 years after the "transition."
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Ash
Member
Oh, I helped with the terms. I've been posting on CZ Forum for a very long while. It's been very slow there for a while, now, though.
Ash
Ash
Ash
Member
Yeah, but Andy, check out the actual pistol. It was never labeled CZ-75 until CZ-UB fundamentally came of its own in the 1990s and split from its older, universal past. It's semantics, I'm sure, and folks can be just as guilty on either side of a debate I'll admit.
Ash
Ash
Ash
Member
As far as the milling/stamping itself, yes. It will say Model 75 on the slide.
Again, it is merely semantics as I said earlier.
Ash
Again, it is merely semantics as I said earlier.
Ash
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