Any "non-standard" operating procedure firearms?

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GregGry

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This is something I have been wondering for a while. Obviously most pistols are similar when it comes to how they function. You take the saftey off, pull the trigger, bang. They have a slide lock to hold the slide back either on the empty mag or if you chose to use it. Mag release is in the same place. Some pistols have trigger safties and or grip safties/manual safties/squeez cock safties/etc. Overall when it comes to the operating procedure they are pretty straight forward. Now here is my question:

How did they get to that point? Are there weird firearms that are floating around that somehow don't follow the norm? It makes sense that firearms are the way they are, there is no need to make them difficult to use. In my personal experiance with firearms I have shot a couple pistols where the saftey had to be up to shoot, which really seemed rather foolish to me. Now if you trained for that great, however that is different from the norm, and could pose a problem. I figure there has to be worse, where some idiot designed a firearm where its near impossible to use due to the design. I am curious to know what you have seen, and pictures would be great.
 
The "get a firm grip" / "pull the trigger" sequence can be reversed with a P7.

Doesn't matter if the squeeze cocker or trigger gets pulled first.
 
Old-school single action revolvers require an empty chamber under the hammer. Many old-school pistols can only be safely carried with the chamber empty.

My modern-made derringer requires that the gun be on half-cock while loading, to prevent the firing pin from striking the base of the cartridge as the action is closed. :what:

Some shotguns are set up with 'release triggers': you pull the trigger and nothing happens, it only fires when the trigger pressure is released.

Some older semi-auto rifles fire from an open bolt. The firing pin does not move, it's always extending from the bolt face. Needless to say, you do not want to carry one with the bolt eased down on a loaded chamber.
 
Any history book concerning fire arms is loaded with pictures of guns that didn't work, or didn't work well. There are hundreds of these types of guns.

Many coffee table books loaded with pictures show many of these guns.
 
I had never heard of that. For what purpose?
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Mostly ATA trap. IIRC it was supposed to cut down on flinches - pull trigger, call for bird, release.

Release triggers were pretty common in the '70s - don't know how they're doing lately.
 
The Lone Haranguer said:
I had never heard of that [release trigger on a shotgun]. For what purpose?
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It's not that uncommon for serious competitive clay target game shooters, especially trapshooters, to develop a flinch because they shoot so much that their body just gets tired of being beat up by the recoil and also from the continued stress of competition. A release trigger, because releasing the trigger is a very "natural" act, solves the problem.
 
Model 11 Winchester semi-auto shotgun. Called the "Widow-Maker" by some.

It had no bolt handle, due to Brownings patents on the A-5 shotgun.

You had to push the muzzle / recoiling barrel down 3"+ inches against a heavy recoil spring system to load the first round.

Some folks did it by putting the butt on the ground and leaning over the muzzle.
Some folks killed themselves doing it!

rc
 
The Ortgies, made in the 1920s, not only had a grip safety, but a grip safety release button. Accordingly, the grip did not have to be held continuously in order to disengage the grip safety. Excellent design. Very safe pocket pistol.

Steyr made a single action semiautomatic pistol with a manual cocking piece to the rear of the reciever. Cavalry troopers on the WWI eastern front liked it.

Mosin-Nagant and Arisaka safeties, have their fans, but decocking an Arisaka is quite a trick.
 
GregGry:

Just happened to think.... If you're thinking about the "Police Officer takes and 'safes' a weapon during a traffic stop" issue, this thread is one great way to remind people that most LEO's don't have the Zen-like mastery of all things gun to get past some of these....

I met a local LEO who had essentially never seen a 1911. His Chief liked Glocks, so that's what he carried....

Regards,
 
GregGry said:
What do you do if you pull the trigger and then decide not to shoot?
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If you're shooting a break action gun, you open the action. I'm not sure about a semi-auto or pump. I think you can open the action on those also to reset, but it kind of seems like you need three hands.

Because of the obvious problems, release triggers are only for competition, never, field guns. And personally, I'm not a fan of them.
 
I don't know if they're still made this way, but years ago I had a Seccamp .25 auto. It was designed so that the magazine had to be in the weapon to open the slide. To clear the gun you had to remove and empty the magazine, then reinsert the magazine to get the round out of the chamber. I had an ND in part because of this system, it's just totally opposite the normal cleating procedure.
 
The Lignouse(sp) is a small semi-auto .25cal made in Austria in the early 30's. You charge the first round by pulling back the front of the trigger guard.
 
The Winchester '94 has a safety that is disengaged when you squeeze the lever down against the grip - which is a lot of the time stumbling around in ice storm destroyed woodland.

Keep the finger out of the trigger guard with that one - and don't forget to squeeze when you do shoot. You'll "break the trigger off" watching that 8 point bound away if you aren't used to it.

And if you are used to any single action pistol with a safety, double action with no safety at all can be really different. Maybe the real question is "Is there any real standard in firearms handling procedures at all?"
 
Maybe the real question is "Is there any real standard in firearms handling procedures at all?"
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Just one. Keep'em pointed where its safe, until you get it unloaded (or prove it is) and figured out. :)

This is one REAL good reason to have or try to have, exposure to as many types of weapons as possible, so you know how they work and how they shoot. You'll probably also find that most things are not as bad as you often hear on the "misinformationet" :)
 
I used to have a .25 "Baby" Browning with a very limited striker engagement. Dropping it was not considered real bright for many loud reasons.... :(

I'm also reminded of a Polish pistol that could be set up so that the gun would discharge when the safety lever was activated. This was used courageously against the Germans, but the "user" generally got an early retirement out of the deal....

Then there's that Japanese pistol that managed to be designed so some sear components were on the outside of the gun. Hold it wrong, and it'd discharge. Trigger? We don't need no steenkin trigger....

Regards,
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregGry
What do you do if you pull the trigger and then decide not to shoot?

If you're shooting a break action gun, you open the action. I'm not sure about a semi-auto or pump. I think you can open the action on those also to reset, but it kind of seems like you need three hands.

Because of the obvious problems, release triggers are only for competition, never, field guns. And personally, I'm not a fan of them.
Click to expand...

I have shot both break-open and semi-auto trap guns with release triggers.

Traditional break-open guns with a thumb-lever are just as described, keep the trigger pulled and thumb the action open.

There are also trap guns where the latch is in front of the trigger guard (Ljutic) that get more interesting with a release, you need to open the gun with your off-hand while holding the trigger.

A semi-auto is the same, keep the trigger held and open the action with your off-hand.
 
Thanks for the link, cuervo. That is a fascinating exchange. I had never thought through, myself, the full import of what could happen with various pistol designs should just one critical part break. The prospect of a P38 going full auto when a defective hammerdrop safety engages is rather disconcerting. As is the "spontaneous ignition" of an Ortgies with a sheared striker lug.

I still love my Ortgies. Back when I occasionally carried it concealed, I left the chamber empty, not because I knew of the controversy re: striker-fired pistols (including Glocks), but just on general principles. It's so easy to rack the slide, and unloading an autoloader quickly and discretely (don't ask; it's sometimes necessary) is easier without a round in chamber -- just dump the mag.
 
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