Any one else tired of the term ND?

[Eric F]

Really Neglegent is still accidental so why not just keep calling it Accidental? After even if it was neglegent if it was not ment to fire then it is still an accident right? I hate that we split hairs all the time on so many things I see no point in catering to the anti gun crowd by using more terms and vocabulary.
When did the ND term start getting tossed around?

 

[MASTEROFMALICE]

I agree. If it's not done on purpose it's an accident.

Almost every accident is the result of negligence. We don't say people were involved in a car negligence and we don't say babies have a negligence in their diapers.

Just about ever bad thing that's ever happened to me what a result of something stupid I did and I'm sure the same applies to everyone else. We all know we're negligent but if the result is unintentional it's an accident.

 

[crazed_ss]

Accident sorta implies it's nobody's fault.. like it just happened.. a freak occurence.. oops, sorry!

Negligence is on the other hand means someone is at fault to due to lack of paying attention to *** they were doing. ND is more descriptive than AD to me because most of the time when these discharges happen, it's because someone got complacement and violated the safety rules.

 

[LKB3rd]

Seems to me it's to point out that writing it off as a simple accident makes it seems more acceptable.

 

[distra]

Accidental discharge generally means something went wrong with the firearm, negligent discharge means someone pulled the trigger without checking the chamber. There is a difference. Both can have disasterous results, however an ND takes conscious thought to pull the trigger and AD is a mechanical failure.

 

[Working Man]

Accident sorta implies it's nobody's fault.. like it just happened.. a freak occurence.. oops, sorry!

Negligence is on the other hand means someone is at fault to due to lack of paying attention to *** they were doing. ND is more descriptive than AD to me because most of the time when these discharges happen, it's because someone got complacement and violated the safety rules.

AD is a mechanical failure.

Agreed.

We don't say people were involved in a car negligence...

I would say the many civil and legal cases might prove otherwise.

we don't say babies have a negligence in their diapers.

That is because it is completely out of their control. The have neither the physical
nor mental ability to prevent this from happening until a certain age. If one wishes
to use that criteria then one should not own a firearm.

 

[alsaqr]

"Negligence is on the other hand means someone is at fault to due to lack of paying attention to *** they were doing. ND is more descriptive than AD to me because most of the time when these discharges happen, it's because someone got complacement and violated the safety rules."

Most cases of ND are caused by the gun operator having his finger on the bang switch at the wrong place and/or at an inappropriate time. Call it what it is; a negligent discharge.

"Seems to me it's to point out that writing it off as a simple accident makes it seems more acceptable."

Exactly. Like: "The gun suddenly went off" and "I didn't know the gun was loaded."

 

[wally]

No I'm not tired of it at all. About sums up the situation 99.9+% of the time excepting the very rare mechanical failure.

--wally.

 

[MASTEROFMALICE]

An accident is an unintended consequence. It seems to me that an accident practically requires some type of mistake on someones part.

 

[jgorniak]

"Accidental" is usually PC crap, letting someone off the hook for their negligence. You find it used often when an innocent is injured / maimed / killed. Seems like it's a way to take the heat off the person who discharged the firearm.

 

[THE MACHINIST]

no such thing because that firearm could sit there for infinity and not go off ,but when someone touches it therin lies the problem how safe are you.

 

[kfranz]

From M-W online dictionary

Main Entry: neg·li·gent
Pronunciation: \-jənt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin neglegent-, neglegens, present participle of neglegere
Date: 14th century
1 a: marked by or given to neglect especially habitually or culpably b: failing to exercise the care expected of a reasonably prudent person in like circumstances
2: marked by a carelessly easy manner

Main Entry: ac·ci·dent
Pronunciation: \ˈak-sə-dənt, -ˌdent; ˈaks-dənt\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin accident-, accidens nonessential quality, chance, from present participle of accidere to happen, from ad- + cadere to fall — more at chance
Date: 14th century
1 a: an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance b: lack of intention or necessity : chance <met by accident rather than by design>
2 a: an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance b: an unexpected and medically important bodily event especially when injurious <a cerebrovascular accident> c: an unexpected happening causing loss or injury which is not due to any fault or misconduct on the part of the person injured but for which legal relief may be sought d—used euphemistically to refer to an involuntary act or instance of urination or defecation
3: a nonessential property or quality of an entity or circumstance <the accident of nationality>

Either definition seems to work. Negligent just does a better job in assigning the responsibility that comes with getting a BANG rather than a click.

 

[AndyC]

Negligence is negligence - no problem with the term here.

 

[woodybrighton]

the very odd weapon goes bang for no reason thats an AD
everything else is an ND and whoever pulled the trigger is in the brown smelly stuff

 

[jfh]

I'm with wally and jgorniak.

Jim H.

 

[Bitmap]

I prefer "unintentional" for a generic term. It can be negligent ( if you had it pointed in an unsafe direction ) or non-negligent ( if you had it pointed in a safe direction ).

 

[Quiet]

Accident sorta implies it's nobody's fault.. like it just happened.. a freak occurence.. oops, sorry!

Negligence is on the other hand means someone is at fault to due to lack of paying attention to *** they were doing. ND is more descriptive than AD to me because most of the time when these discharges happen, it's because someone got complacement and violated the safety rules.

+1

 

[Hawk]

ND vs AD would seem to meet all the criteria to join "Magazine vs Clip" and "45 Colt vs .45 Long Colt" in the hall of fame of recurring arguments.

I'm OK with AD or ND. Although those noting that someone screwed up are correct the word "accidental" has long been used as synonymous with "unintentional". It is a sad fact of life that "negligence" has become a legal term with the courts deciding whether and to what degree it applies in any given instance.

Those insisting on "ND" being the correct terminology are engaged in an effort to remove the common use of "accidental" as a descriptor involving intent. This may well be tilting at windmills.

Also, a key concept in "negligent" anything is whether it was culpable negligence. Culpability determination is a matter for the courts, not every yahoo with a keyboard and functional internet connection.


Personally, I use "unintentional" rather than either "accidental" or "negligent". It has the advantage of neither absolving nor assigning blame and it annoys the champions of both camps.

 

[Library Guy]

There is a shift in the medical and injury prevention literature away from using the term accident.

Accident implies a random, unpredictable, and unpreventable event.

But in common usage it’s not such a big deal.

 

[bruss01]

Walking down the street, suddenly lightning hit my CCW piece and it went off - that's accidental.

I was crossing the street and a car runs a red light mowing me down and somehow my CCW piece goes off - that's accidental.

A tree crashed thru my bedroom window during a windstorm and one of the twigs got inside the trigger guard of my HD shotgun and it went off - that's accidental.

I chambered a round, obeying all 4 rules, but there was a mechanical failure in the gun and the hammer dropped or the firing pin was stuck and it discharged without my finger being anywhere near the trigger - that's accidental.

I put my finger on the trigger and pulled, but I didn't really and truly MEAN for it to go off - what part of that is an accident? If you violated safe handling rules, it wasn't an accident, it was negligence. You NEGLECTED to follow one or more rules - that equals NEGLIGENCE.

How hard is that to understand? People really just DO NOT want to take responsibility for their actions or from consequences arising from them, for us to even be having this discussion.

 

[GBExpat]

Any one else tired of the term ND?

I rapidly became tired of those who insisted on trying to force "ND" down the throats of anyone who used "AD" in a scenario description.

 

[catfish101]

A mistake is a mistake and most of them are caused my someones negligence.

Wether with a gun or you are in a restaurant and you neglected to move your glass to the center of the table and you accidently spilled it reaching for the salt and a little old lady was walking by and slipped on the tea that dripped on the ground and she fell and hit her and she died.

It seems that the end result of a situation determines what the event was. If the bullit didn't hurt anybody it was an accident and we can come on the forum a talk about the incident. If the bullit killed somebody then the person is a negligent idiot that needs to be in prison the rest of his life.

 

[cmidkiff]

Using the term 'accidental discharge' places the blame on the firearm, whereas the term 'negligent discharge' places the blame on the person holding it.

How many times have you heard the anti's use a story about a 'tragic, fatal accident' that could have been prevented by whatever anti-gun law they are promoting at the moment. Accidents can be prevented by removing the thing that caused the accident, negligence can only be prevented by changing behavior.

I see the term 'accidental discharge' in very much the same way as I see the term 'assault weapon'. There are applicable uses, but they're rare. If I'm talking about a select fire military rifle, I might just call it an assault rifle. If a malfunctioning firearm sends a round downrange when the bolt is closed, I would term that an accident. Neither is something I encounter all that often.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

As one who was just recently guilty of being negligent, I have no problem with the distinction.

 

[rantingredneck]

I think being very clear about the differences between ND's and AD's helps our cause rather than hurts it. The antigunners are all about making the gun seem scary, evil, etc. Like it can just "go off" by itself. Using the term Accident and trying to deny negligence when the four rules are not obeyed really helps their case!! I'm reminded of the congressman or senator a year or so back who ND'd his P3AT into a bulletproof vest hanging on the back of his door. He claimed AD, but was it really? Was there really a mechanical failure of that gun??

Lets face it, mechanical devices can fail. No doubt about it. But firearms rarely fail in such a way to create an unintended discharge. Usually it's someone's finger on the bangswitch when it shouldn't be.

Being clear about the ND/AD terminology helps our cause by pointing out that it isn't the gun's fault!!!