I was wondering if we should come to the conclusion that guns are inherently dangerous
To quote Jeff Cooper (the guy who wrote The Four Rules, and who has forgotten more about guns that most of us could hope to know) quoting some Russian: "Eez gun! Eez not safe!"
Guns ARE dangerous. That's what makes them useful! The idea of making guns "safe" is a misguided pollyana liberal/pacifist fantasy that life should be all flowers and clouds and sunshine and happiness and hippie love. The only "safe" gun, allowing for practical reality, is loaded and chambered and holstered/slung on your body.
What makes guns "unsafe" is not their being inherently dangerous, but reckless handling thereof. Extremely rare mechanical malfunctions and impacts aside, unintentional harm comes from a gun only when someone pulls the trigger when they should not have.
and it is just a matter of time before an AD/ND will occur,
AD: Accidental Discharge: A reasonably unexpected event causes the gun to fire. Nobody in their right mind would have seriously predicted the occurrence. Entropy happens.
ND: Negligent Discharge: A reasonably expected event causes the gun to fire. Anybody in their right mind would have predicted the occurrence. Stupidity happens.
Both are a matter of statistics. Do something often enough, and either a malfunction will occur or you will do something stupid. Just as motorcycle riders talk about
when an accident will occur and not
if, and just as we buy assorted forms of insurance because the odds of something bad happening (thru accident or negligence) are high enough, shooters expect guns to discharge unintentionally at some point.
or maybe the "gun safety rules" are flawed and they contribute for AD/ND to happen.
WRONG. Hugely massively wrong.
The Four Rules (as precisely laid down by Jeff Cooper) recognize at their core that accidents and stupidity happen. Shooters know they are dealing with dangerous devices, and as such go to great lengths to both prevent accidents and ensure the consequences of accidents are ultimately harmless. The Four Rules provide layers of protection: to cause harm (be it accidental or negligent), fully
half the rules must be broken - breaking only one rule will get your attention and yet not hurt anyone.
The main problem with these rules is that they do not acknowledge that humans make mistakes
Yes, they do. Consider the mistakes contravining the rules:
#1 - if you thought it was not loaded, it still won't go off (per Rule #3) and wouldn't hurt anything if it did (per Rule #2 & 4).
#2 - if you point it at something precious, it won't go off (per Rule #3) and you'll know pointing it there is dangerous (per Rule #1).
#3 - if you touch or even pull the trigger, it won't cause harm if it discharges (per Rule #2 & 4) and you know pulling the trigger is dangerous (per Rule #1).
#4 - if you shoot something you didn't mean to, you had to already know that the thing was loaded (per Rule #1), pointed at something you actually were willing to shoot (per Rule #2), and caused the gun to fire (per Rule #3).
The Four Rules is all about mistakes. By keeping the list short, there is no excuse for "oh, I forgot that one" (as risked by rule lists having 10 or more points). By keeping the list redundant, you can break one rule (sometimes more) and obeying the others will still prevent harm.
An urge to change The Four Rules is an indication that you do not understand them. The Four Rules were written by a man who knows more about guns than most: Jeff Cooper has fought in multiple wars, defended himself several times, has long been a big-game safari hunter, created IPSC, devised the "scout rifle", formalized and promoted modern handgun methods, created the Gunsite school, taught many thousands of new and advanced shooters, wrote several books, and is generally regarded as one of the wisest shooters alive (viable criticism of him rarely exceeds reasonable professional differences of opinion).
Of note: you (karhu) did not even get the wording of The Four Rules correctly. See XavierBreath's post. Don't criticize what you don't even have straight.
i think everybody is entitled to his own opinion,
Per Dilbert: "when did ignorance become a point of view?"
Simply having an opinion does not mean one will be taken seriously.
and mine says that something must be wrong with these rules for so many AD/ND to happen ... here is a collection of AD/ND (collected from just a few threads in this forum)
Yes, bad stuff happens - especially when dangerous devices are involved.
The list looks impressive, yet does not take into account that the few dozen AD/ND incidents mentioned are among
billions of rounds fired - and nearly all are the direct result of violating The Four Rules, with the very few remaining the result of mechanical malfunction. On anecdotal average, a person has to fire around a
half million rounds before suffering a single AD/ND - that's hundreds of thousands of deliberate trigger pulls, coupled with tens of thousands of draws, mag insertions, etc.
Turns out that, statistically speaking, "dangerous" activities like shooting, skydiving, etc. have remarkably low casualty rates compared to "harmless" activities like driving, football, swimming, etc. Why? because those involved in "dangerous" activities know it, and follow the rules to almost paranoiac levels.
There's nothing wrong with the rules. Bad stuff happens. Following the rules, as stated by the wise, makes bad stuff happen a lot less often. If you really want to be "safe", take up knitting - but take care you don't stab yourself with those long pointy needles.
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All that said...
karhu, let's run thru the AD/ND anecdotes you listed:
#1 - violated rule 1, protected by obeying rule 2. (Loaded by other.)
#2 - violated rule 1, protected by obeying rule 3. (Incomplete unloading.)
#3 - mechanical malfunction, protected by obeying rule 2. (Safety failure.)
#4 - violated rule 3, protected by obeying rule 2. (Finger in trigger guard.)
#5 - violated rule 1 & 2 & 3, protected by dumb luck. (Incomplete unload, unsure of target, pulled trigger.)
#6 - violated rule 1, protected by obeying rule 2. (Incomplete unload.)
#7 - violated rule 3, protected by obeying rule 2. (Finger on trigger when loading.)
#8 - violated rule 3, protected by obeying rule 2. (Slipped hammer.)
#9 - violated rule 1, protected by obeying rule 2. (Assumed unloaded, miscount.)
#10 - violated rule 1, protected by obeying rules 2 & 3. (Distracted, forgot not empty.)
#11 - violated rule 1, protected by obeying rule 2. (Ignorance of loading mechanism.)
#12 - violated rules 1 & 2, protected by dumb luck satisfying rule 3. (Round stuck in cylinder, don't aim at gas valves.)
#13 - violated rule 1, protected by obeying rule 2. (Round in chamber.)
#14 - mechanical malfunction, protected by obeying rule 2. (Slamfire.)
#15 - violated rule 3, protected by obeying rule 2. (Touched light trigger.)
#16 - violated rule 1, protected by obeying rule 2. (Round in chamber.)
#17 - obeyed all rules, nothing went wrong. (Recognized ignorance.)
#18 - violated rules 1 & 3, protected by obeying rule 2. (Finger on trigger while working action.)
#19 - violated rule 1, protected by obeying rule 2. (Incomplete unload.)
#20 - violated rule 1, protected by obeying rule 2. (Incomplete unload.)
#21 - violated rule 1, protected by obeying rule 2. (Put down unloaded gun, picked up loaded duplicate.)
#22 - obeyed all rules, discovered unexpectedly chambered round, no harm done. (Checked chamber.)
#23 - tried to violate rule 1, paid attention to nuance indicating chambered round, followed rules, no harm done.
#24 - mechanical malfunction, protected by obeying rule 2. (Safety failure.)
#25 - violated rule 3, protected by obeying rule 2. (Slipped hammer.)
#26 - mechanical malfunction prevented discharge, no harm done. (Failed ejector.)
#27 - mechanical malfunction, followed by freak uncontained case rupture and freak case fragment impact causing death. Prime example of ultra-rare abnormal ADs. (Hangfire?)
#28 - violated rule 1 or 3 (unsure), protected by obeying rule 2. (Distracted.)
#29 - violated rule 3, protected by obeying rule 2. (Slipped hammer.)
#30 - violated all rules, dumb luck prevented casualty. (Ignorance, pointed near foot, pulled trigger on loaded gun.)
#31 - unclear cause, protected by rule 2.
#32 - mechanical malfunction, protected by obeying rule 2. (Slamfire.)
#33 - mechanical malfunction, protected by obeying rule 2. (Worn sear. Moron knows but hasn't fixed for years.)
#34 - followed rules, no harm done. Not near-ND so much as training ingrained more than expected.
#35 - violated rule 3, protected by obeying rule 2. (Finger in guard.)
#36 - violated rule 1, protected by obeying rule 2. (Reversed unload procedure, alcohol involved.)
#37 - unclear cause, protected by rule 2.
#38 - mechanical malfunction, no discharge. (Stuck in tube mag.)
#39 - mechanical malfunction, protected by obeying rule 2. (Slamfire.)
#40 - violated rule 3, protected by obeying rule 2. (Pulled trigger.)
#41 - mechanical malfunction, protected by obeying rule 2. (Worn sear.)
#42 - violated rule 1, protected by obeying rule 2. (Loaded gun in gun store.)
#43 - violated rule 1, protected by obeying rule 2. (Loaded dry fire.)
#44 - violated rule 1, protected by obeying rule 2. (Loaded dry fire.)
#45 - violated rule 1 & 3, protected by dumb luck. (Grabbed falling loaded gun.)
#46 - mechanical malfunction, protected by obeying rule 2. (Lowered hammer on live round.)
#47 - violated rule 1 & 3, protected by obeying rule 2. (Habitual trigger pull.)
#48 - violated rule 3, protected by obeying rule 2. (Grabbed falling loaded gun.)
#49 - violated rule 1, protected by obeying rule 2. (Counted rounds, forgot mag modified for extra round.)
#50 - violated rule 3, protected by obeying rule 2. (Hammer slipped.)
#51 - mechanical malfunction, protected by obeying rule 2. (Slamfire.)
#52 - idiocy, no harm done. (Playing with trigger & hammer on loaded rifle.)
#53 - mechanical malfunction, protected by obeying rule 2. (Slamfire.)
#54 - mechanical malfunction, protected by obeying rule 2. (Slamfire.)
#55 - mechanical malfunction, protected by obeying rule 2. (Decock failure.)
#56 - mechanical malfunction, protected by obeying rule 2. (Slamfire.)
#57 - idiocy, no harm done. (Drunk.)
#58 - mechanical malfunction, protected by obeying rule 2. (Slamfire.)
#59 - violated rule 1, protected by obeying rule 2. (Distracted.)
#60 - mechanical malfunction. (Slidelock on chambered round.)
#61 - mechanical malfunction. (Slamfire.)
#62 - violated rule 3, protected by dumb luck. (Holding trigger, working action, loaded.)
#63 - idiocy, no harm done. (Kid with loaded gun.)
#64 - idiocy. (Unclear.)
#65 - violated rule 3, protected by obeying rule 2. (Holding trigger, working action, loaded.)
#66 - mechanical malfunction. (Unclear.)
#67 - violated rule 2, maybe 3, maybe mechanical malfunction, casualty. (Mexican carry failure.)
#68 - violated rule 3, no harm done. (Kid with loaded gun.)
#69 - mechanical malfunction, protected by obeying rule 2. (Slamfire.)
#70 - double-tap.
#71 - violated rule 1 & 3, protected by dumb luck. (Slipped hammer.)
#72 - violated rule 3, protected by obeying rule 2. (Slipped hammer.)
#73 - violated rule 1. (Unclear.)
#74 - violated rule 3. (Slipped hammer.)
#75 - idiocy, protected by obeying rule 2. (Ignorance, partly loaded cylinder turned opposite from expectation.)
#76 - violated rule 3. (Touched trigger.)
#77 - mechanical malfunction, protected by obeying rule 2. (Misassembled.)
#78 - idiocy, violated rule 1, protected by obeying rule 2. (Did not consider gun may be loaded.)
#79 - mechanical malfunction, violated rule 1, protected by obeying rule 2. (Broken extractor.)
#80 - violated rule 1, protected by obeying rule 2.
#81 - mechanical malfunction, protected by obeying rule 2. (Discharge on safety release.)
#82 - violated rule 1 & 4, no harm done. (Loaded by other.)
#83 - idiocy, violated rule 3, no harm done. (Playing with trigger & hammer on loaded gun.)
#84 - double-tap.
#85 - double-tap.
#86 - violated rule 3, protected by obeying rule 2. (Slipped hammer.)
#87 - mechanical malfunction, violated rule 1, protected by obeying rule 2. (Extractor failure, inadquate chamber check.)
#88 - violated rule 3, protected by dumb luck. (Finger on trigger.)
#89 - violated rule 2, fatality. (Pulled gun by barrel, snagged hammer fell.)
#90 - idiocy, violated all rules, protected by dumb luck. (Spinning loaded gun by guard.)
#91 - idiocy, violated all rules. (Drunk.)
Summary:
- 91 ND/ADs including a few "close enough to count"
- 1 straight fatality (stood on wrong end of known loaded gun and pulled, snag caused discharge)
- 1 freak fatality (hangfire detonated outside chamber, case fragment caused terminal injury)
- 1 severe injury (front-of-pants carry => autocastration) maybe 2 (was the cat hit?)
- 8 "dumb luck" (no harm, but significant chance thereof)
- 29 rule 1 violations ("I didn't know it was loaded" is NEVER an excuse)
- 4 rule 2 violations (if you don't point it at anyone/thing, no harm done)
- 24 rule 3 violations (touch trigger, expect BOOM!)
- 1 rule 4 violations (bullets tend to keep going)
- 25 mechanical failures (stuff breaks - expect malfunctions)
- 9 cases of outright idiotic behavior (people who do stupid things with hazardous objects often die)
- 8 hammer slips (you're knowingly pulling the trigger on a chambered round? ***?)
- 3 discharges from malfunctioning safety being released (pure mechanical failure; 4 including mine)
- 10 slamfires (keep 'em clean, guys)
- Nobody shot anyone else (despite some remarkable attempts)
Observations:
- Most of the time an AD/ND is rendered harmless by obeying rule 2.
- When breaking 1 rule, the other 3 continue protection. At least 2 broken rules are required to risk harm.
- If someone outright violates most or all rules, more rules won't help.
- NDs outnumber ADs 3-to-1.
- Decocking (hold hammer, pull trigger, lower hammer) on a loaded chamber is common and dumb. If you pull a trigger, expect it to fire!!! In reviewing these cases, I'm coming to strongly dislike exposed-hammer designs.
- Slamfires are surprisingly common. Keep the firing pin clean! Firing pin blocks are a good design.
- Visual AND tactile chamber checks are vital. Counting rounds is inadequate.
- If you don't know how it works, stop screwing around with it.
- If a gun goes out of your immediate control or attention for even a moment, it's loaded.
Upshot:
The Four Rules work - when people obey them. People make mistakes, so the rules are designed to provide multiple layers of protection. It takes concerted effort/stupidity to break enough rules to cause harm. Learn why the rules say what they do - don't change them out of sheer ignorance. If someone won't follow a rule, more rules won't help.
