Are the gun safety rules flawed ?

[1911Tuner]

Rulz

Simplified:

1...Yes. It's loaded. It's always loaded. If you tell me that it's not, I won't believe you. I expect the same response from you if I tell you that mine isn't loaded.

2...Don't point it at anything that you don't want to make a hole in. Especially, don't point it at me. If you do, I will likely become abusive.

3...If you want the gun to fire, pull the trigger. If you don't...don't. It's just that simple.

4...Don't point the gun and pull the trigger until you're sure that you want to make a hole in something. If you think that there might be something in your line of fire that you don't want a hole in, refer to Rules 2 and 3.

The one statement that I heard a rabid anti-gunner make...and that was completely accurate was:

"Guns and bullets are designed to put holes in things."

Hole-y bullseye, Batman! How can it be any clearer?

 

[JohnKSa]

Bless the Throne...

How long did it take you to find the two longest posts on the forum, quote the ENTIRE text of both of them and then only add a "+1"???

I can't believe you quoted the whole thing!

I can't believe you quoted BOTH of the whole things!

This has got to be some sort of a record--I hereby nominate you for the "Worst Abuser of the Quote Feature" award and further recommend that you be allowed to hold the the title in perpetuity.

 

[Molon Labe]

The Four Rules are fine. But people can still get hurt, even if they religiously follow them.

I have been hurt - and I did not break any of the rules. I also had a close call with a neighbor. Yet I did not break any of the rules.

Now you're probably wondering... how?

1. My FAL blew up in my face. I was a bloody mess. My finger never touched the trigger, the muzzle was pointed at the backstop, yet I still got hurt. Lesson learned? You never know when your gun might break on you. Even if you religiously follow the Four Rules, you can still get hurt. So you should always wear eye protection when shooting a gun. Always.

2. My neighbor came over one day and said, "Your bullets are whizzing by my house." I was shooting at my backstop, but some of the bullets were ricocheting off the ground. Lesson learned? Be sure of your target, what’s behind it, and make sure your bullets are not ricocheting.

 

[Heywood Case]

The only deficiency I can see in the 4 rules is that they do not spell out the requirement of active consideration. Just knowing the rules is not enough, I find that I really have to think about them and watch for lapses of attention. The discipline required is one of the great rewards of learning how to shoot, in my opinion.

John

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

1. My FAL blew up in my face. I was a bloody mess. My finger never touched the trigger, the muzzle was pointed at the backstop, yet I still got hurt. Lesson learned? You never know when your gun might break on you. Even if you religiously follow the Four Rules, you can still get hurt. So you should always wear eye protection when shooting a gun. Always.

2. My neighbor came over one day and said, "Your bullets are whizzing by my house." I was shooting at my backstop, but some of the bullets were ricocheting off the ground. Lesson learned? Be sure of your target, what’s behind it, and make sure your bullets are not ricocheting.

1. An AD isn't preventable with the 4 rules, but by having it pointed in a safe direction (assuming the bullet came out the killin end) you can minimize damage to other people or property.
2. Part of being sure of your target and what's beyond it is making sure you aren't getting ricochets (especially if your bullets are hitting the ground) and if you are, stop immediately and change it so you wont! Sounds like your neighbor was pretty cool about it though.

I'm not criticizing you, just my thoughts in relation to the rules.

 

[dukalmighty]

I had just cleaned my S&W 357 snub nose revolver and forgot i had loaded it,my wife was watching a soap opera on tv and i said somebody needs to take that guy out as i pointed my revolver at the actor on tv,and squeezed the trigger,30 minutes later i'm in wal-mart buying my wife a bigger better tv,the round stayed inside the picture tube i guess the vaccuum had some kinda effect on the way the round expanded.oh yeah i threw away the underwear i was wearing.that was in 1984,and i never have a gun in the house with a round in the chamber and before i ever dry fire a weapon i triple check the chamber.

 

[YellowLab]

The troll has returned to it's home under the bridge.... it's over, it loses.

I mean if you have the time to look up, cut/past over 80 posts about mishaps you are looking to start some sort of idiology fight.

I carry, loaded, with one in the chamber (thats 9 rounds of .45acp lubb'in ). The gun is FIRMLY affixed to my body and I take full responsibility for its use (intended or otherwise).

How many people have followed all the DOT rules about driving thier car into an intersection and STILL had a collision? Or put up a fence around thier pool and STILL have someone drown... etc etc etc.

 

[BHPshooter]

I was dry-firing in my bedroom (in the basement). I finished, loaded the pistol for the night, and set it down. My brother's dog came downstairs to maul me for a minute, and then went back upstairs. I thought, "What was I doing? Oh, I was dry-firing." I picked up the pistol, and pointed (not aimed) it at my bedroom door, which covers my closet when opened.

I was concentrating on a slow, steady squeeze when it went off. The strange thing is that I didn't hear it -- complete auditory exclusion -- but I did see the fireball at the end of the barrel, and the hole that developed in the door. The bullet lodged in a stud inside the closet, where it has remained.

The gun was an FEG Hi Power in 9mm.

I'm absolutely anal about double- and triple-checking that guns are unloaded now.

#10 - violated rule 1, protected by obeying rules 2 & 3. (Distracted, forgot not empty.)

-------------

Mine was on a day that I was having a migraine. I sought the more comfortable, dimmer light and quiet of my bedroom in the basement. I grabbed my FEG Hi Power to dry-fire to relax. I dry-fired for a long while, decided that I was done, and reloaded it for the evening.

The phone rang, and I went upstairs to answer it.

I came back downstairs, thought, "what was I doing? Oh yeah, I was dry firing." Sat back down, took aim again and sqeezed the trigger. Didn't even hear the report, just saw the ball of flame at the muzzle and the hole in the closet door, and I knew that I was a massive idiot.

#59 - violated rule 1, protected by obeying rule 2. (Distracted.)

These are both my one incident (as described in the first one -- it wasn't the phone that rang, it was the 100-lb. dog mauling me). It's funny how little details seem to fade and blend with other things as time goes on.

I was dry-firing, which, although dangerous, is downright necessary to keeping your skills sharp. The problem is that I broke rule #1. (Rule #1 needs to be verified and re-verified EVERY time you pick up a gun, no matter how long ago you handled it.) Adding more rules isn't going to change that -- the rules work perfectly, but only if they are followed. However, I was still following rules 2 and 4, and that is what averted tragedy.

I mean no offense or aggression when I say this, but this is the same kind of reasoning that antis use against us:

It's already against the law to murder someone, yet it happens. But wait, we need a rule to make it more illegal (as if any such thing is possible ) if the person is killed with a gun.
Dead is dead is dead. It doesn't matter if it happened with a sword, rat poison, a rubber mallet, a gun, or with raw chicken.

BOTTOM LINE: The 4 rules are not meant to avoid NDs, they are mean to avert tragedy... and they work.

Wes

 

[karhu]

Hi,

Some conclusions:

- Almost nobody in this forum is concerned with reviewing the "4 Rules of gun safety". They are fine as they are. Jeff Cooper wrote them right? Then, they are perfect as they are now.
- Almost nobody in this forum is concerned with reducing AD/ND (guns are dangerous anyway, so AD/ND will happen, period.)


Btw, How many of you have heard of a AD /ND of an atomic weapon?

Have you ever wondered why AD/ND of atomic weapons do not occur ?
It is because they follow a very strict set of rules for using them. (that are proofed against human mistakes)

Are atomic weapons more dangerous than firearms? For sure they are. But for sure they don't follow the sacred "4 rules for gun safety", otherwise someone would be holstering/unholstering (the trigger for launching a missile), dry firing, … etc, etc


For those that defend the "4 rules of gun safety" :
What would you think if the U.S government decides applying them for handling atomic weapons? They are perfect as they are, aren't they?



Ps.

Of course I'm not proposing to use the "rules for 'atomic guns' safety" for firearms. But they are an excellent example on how AD/ND can be reduced to zero, just by using a different set of rules for handling something that is inherently dangerous.

I can't believe that so many of gun owners are not a little bit concerned on how to reduce AD/ND


Every time an AD/ND happens is more fuel for those who want to ban firearms. (and still worse is that many AD/ND end up killing someone)


btw, i liked this comment:

I think he's asked some good questions.

We take the 4 Rules as articles of faith (heck, we even capitalize the name), but all safety rules need periodic critical review to make sure that they don't need updating.

Remember that these are all behavioral safety rules focusing on how a weapon is handled. Since almost all accidents are due to unsafe behaviors anyway that's more than reasonable, that's desirable.

Can they be improved upon is the real question. Would it be safer to require the chamber to be empty at all times except when the weapon is pointed down range? Sure it would. Is this practical for defensive weapon carry? Probably not, but the Israelies carry in condition 3 for that reason so there's room for discussion.

---------






this one is just nonsense...

The troll has returned to it's home under the bridge.... it's over, it loses.

I mean if you have the time to look up, cut/past over 80 posts about mishaps you are looking to start some sort of idiology fight.

sorry, but I have better things to do than read (or reply) to every post that repeats and repeats the same thing ('that the 4 rules of gun safety are perfect as they are")


Why don't you just say:

"I like dry-firing, I like carrying cocked and locked and I will continue to do so… Will this increase the probability of having a AD/ND? Yes, but I don't care… "






.

 

[BluesBear]

There is no cure for Jergin's Myasthenia.

- Almost nobody in this forum is concerned with reducing AD/ND (guns are dangerous anyway, so AD/ND will happen, period.)

You could not be further from the truth. The entire reason for "The Four Rules" IS to prevent negligent discharges. Why do you think we place so much emphasis on them? It's because we are concerned about negligent discharges. The only reason negligent discharges occur is because someone didn't follow "The Four Rules".
Why can't you get this simple concept through your skull? If everyone followed "the Four Rules" 100% of the time there would be absolutely NO negligent discharges at all.


And after reading ALL of the posts logically answering your questions and systematically addressing each and every instance you mentioned, the only thing you can come up with to say is some cockamamie comment comparing a handfeld firearm to an Atomic weapon?

Give me a break. With such an inane post as that how can you expect anyone with an IQ above a bread crumb to consider anything you say to be even remotely worthwhile? Having an online discussion with you is a waste of electrons.


Another name for the twitlist.


__________________


Is there anything more boring than a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent?

 

[karhu]

Hi BluesBear,

i hope your "IQ is above a bread crumb" so you can understand what I'm going to say:

I never said that the "4 rules of gun safety" are useless. Of course they prevent many AD/ND; but I think that they are not perfect either and it is possible to improve them to reduce the number of AD/ND.


if you can't understand the previous sentence, please don't reply again with the same argument as before...

 

[1911Tuner]

Hold!

Gentlemen...Let's keep it civil.

Nothing is without flaw, and everything is a compromise. Almost anything that you do is potentially dangerous. Murphy is everywhere, and you can get hurt unless all you do is sit still...and then your arteries harden...so even that isn't "safe." We observe sensible rules for all that we do, and in so doing, we generally avoid disaster. The more potential for danger our activity, the more attention we pay to what we're doing...at least if we're smart. Agreed?

Unless mishandled, a modern firearm is as "safe" as any potentially dangerous
instrument can be. The problem comes only when WE aren't safe in our practices, and it's up to US as to how safe or dangerous the gun is...and no manual safety device can ever replace common sense whenever handling loaded guns.

Cocked and Locked isn't the issue here. I've carried in that condition daily for years and have never had one to simply go off. I have personal involvement with a 1911 pistol that was stored in Condition One for 62 years, and it didn't fire...and when tested, it worked perfectly. Not to say that it can't happen...but I've never had it to happen, and I've never known of it to happen on a personal level. In all cases, the AD/ND occurred because somebody pulled the trigger...either with their finger or by allowing something to enter the trigger guard. One was a personal friend, who pulled a loaded shotgun out of the back seat of a car. The trigger snagged on something that was in the seat with the gun, and he shot himself mid-chest. He literally died on his feet because he allowed the gun to be pointed at something that he didn't want to destroy. Had he not done that, he would be alive.


karhu...Your assertations that guns are simply unsafe if carried at the ready are unfounded. The guns are safe...assuming good mechanical condition...and it's only when WE interact with the loaded gun that we either maintain a safe condition...or not. It's pretty much up to us.

 

[XDKingslayer]

Rule # 1
Never dry fire
You can't be 100% sure 100% of the time that there is no round in the chamber. So if you dry fire, you might/will end up with a AD/ND - it is just a matter of time.

Yes you can. Open the chamber, visually and physically inspect it. It's REALLY is that simple. If you do this, then you won't end up with an AD/ND.

Rule # 2
Never let the muzzle of a gun point at anything you do not want to destroy or kill.

Don't agree with this either, at least in context. I don't intend to kill that candle on the table, but I point my pistol at it to dry fire because of it's handy target shape. But we've all done it with a pistol we've visually and physically inspected for numerous reasons, mainly dry firing.

Rule # 3
Keep your finger straight and off the trigger. (and if carrying an autoloader never carry it with a round in the chamber - the safety could be turned off when you least expect it)
At all times you must keep your trigger finger straight, and off the trigger. Only once you have aimed and have your target in the sights should you permit your finger to gently rest on the trigger. This prevents accidental discharges should you stumble, trip, or be subjected to some unexpected event.

So I should carry my auto without a round in the chamber, directly in disregard of the Teuller drill and trying to unholster my pistol to stop a rapidly closing attack and now having to chamber a round?

Rule # 4
Be absolutely sure of your target, and what is behind it.

Here's one I actually agree on. But it's the only one.

Rule # 5
"Keep your gun in its holster and only unholster it in the range, for cleaning it, or to defend your life - no exceptions allowed ! "

Right. So we shouldn't take it to the gun shop for modifications or repairs? We shouldn't show it to our gun loving buddies after checking it's safety condition?

Opinions? Can we create a set of rules that will reduce the number of AD/ND ?

Yes, your rules are laughable and apply not one shred of common sense. No, you will never create a set of rules that will reduce the number of AD/NDs because they have to ignore the present rules to experience and ND. What makes you think they are going to listen to yours?

 

[feedthehogs]

You can make all the rules in the world, but when you introduce the human element, everything goes out the window.

AD's and ND's should not happen unless there is a mechanical breakdown of the firearm.
Otherwise it turns out to be some schmuck pullin a you talking to me in the mirror while strapped to his hog leg or shootin someone on tv or carrying a live round in the chamber thru heavy brush while hunting or saying the famous phrase, hold my beer and watch this or does this ninja outfit make me look fat while twirling his heater.

Humans are stupid, guns are not.
The rules are fine unlike the space between alot of people's ears.

I've found some people just like to let others know just how dumb they are.

 

[BIGDADDYLONGSTROKE]

karhu

I think your just bored out looking for a fight.

1. comparing atomic weapons to hand guns, well not everybody has atomic weapons in there bedroom and practice with them.

2. Have you ever heard of Trenoble ( I think that is how it is spelled ), the atomic power plant melt down that is still causing problems to this day?

 

[XavierBreath]

I've loaded nukes.
There was always some know-it-all on the nuclear loading teams who wanted to rewrite protocol. They lasted about three sentences before they were escorted outside the rope. There is no room for protocol revision inside the rope.

Nuclear incidents do occur. Do not fool yourself. While not as widely devastating as an explosion, radiation does escape, and can be considered the same as a negligent discharge.

Safety rules are made by analysis of past mistakes, and a honest assessment of the etiology of the mistake. The key to developing successful rules is an understanding of the issues they are to govern. Karhu, I do not believe you understand these issues very well. You might benefit from further study of the issues at hand before revising the rules.

 

[akodo]

Karhu, in all your examples of AD/ND, every single one involved people BREAKING THE RULES.

No rule will ever work if people ignore it.

Even your atomic rules. guess what happens when people start breaking them? Stuff blows up.

You have yet to cite ONE instance where ALL the 4 saftey rules were followed and an ND occured.

 

[Firethorn]

Karhu, while your idea of replacing the four rules with better ones is a worthy goal, yours are not an improvement, as you can have an ND while not breaking any, you cannot follow them with whole classes of weapons, and even then you have to 'violate' them routinely for routine reasons.

As others have stated, you have to violate at least two rules before somebody gets hurt with our current set, and with only four to remember, people can be taught them quickly. Making them instinctive takes longer, of course. It's a very good compromise between rememberability and effectivness.

I know people who have bought a bullet trap specifically for the purpose of being a target during dry-fire. Not a bad idea. I personally usually don't dry fire unless I'm conducting a function check. When I do, I put a snap cap in beforehand, and recheck if I put the weapon down for any reason. I still don't point it at anything I'd be too concerned about shooting.

 

[Stainless Chili]

karho states

(guns are dangerous anyway, so AD/ND will happen, period.)

Huh ?!? This is an assumtion on who's part? Walking down a well-lit staircase is more dangerous than gun ownership.

Perhaps an urban sprawl of strictly single-story residences could save lives ...

 

[ctdonath]

Almost nobody in this forum is concerned with reviewing the "4 Rules of gun safety". They are fine as they are. Jeff Cooper wrote them right? Then, they are perfect as they are now.

I've been on this board since its inception, made over 1300 posts - plus thousands more on its precursor (TFL). You've done 13. Having been an active participant for years, let me assure you (the earnest newcomer) that we have reviewed The Four Rules far beyond what you can imagine. We could publish a book with the vast piles of postings on the subject. Just because the review is new to you does not mean the review has not been done to death already.

Yes, Jeff Cooper wrote them - can you seriously and viably recommend ANYONE more suited for writing such rules? He wrote them based on vast experience, with loads of review from other tremendously experienced shooters, and they have held up through friendly & hostile scrutiny by thousands. As such, the rules may not be perfect (as no man is perfect) but you'll be hard-pressed to improve them (how much shooting experience do you have?).

As shown time and again: the problem isn't the rules, the problem is people won't follow them.

Almost nobody in this forum is concerned with reducing AD/ND (guns are dangerous anyway, so AD/ND will happen, period.)

You haven't seen us handling guns then. We can quote The Four Rules verbatum at any moment. We teach them to others. We obey the rules OBSESSIVELY. Considering the billions of rounds fired by this group each year, the miniscule number of AD/NDs is testimony to how hard we try to reduce them. We know, from extensive personal experience, that changing & complicating gun handling rules is one of the fastest ways to end up with AD/NDs.

Gun accidents happen at a much lower rate than comparably serious accidents involving bathrooms, highschool football, cars, and other common activities. Are you equally concerned about rules & safety for those issues?

Accidents DO happen. Everything is dangerous if you do something stupid enough with it. Part of being an adult is mitigating those risks - but not trying to actually lower those risks to zero (because the only zero-risk situation is total elimination of the object or activity).

How many of you have heard of a AD /ND of an atomic weapon?

Worth pointing out XavierBreath's comment: Nuclear incidents do occur. Do not fool yourself. While not as widely devastating as an explosion, radiation does escape, and can be considered the same as a negligent discharge.

Elsewhere I have addressed the issue of nuke safety (per "does RKBA apply to nukes?"). The rules are essentially the same. They are followed obsessively, and anyone acting - or even hinting - at a violation is immediately removed from the area.

I can't believe that so many of gun owners are not a little bit concerned on how to reduce AD/ND

To use the same tone:
I can't believe that you're so presumptuous & condescending.

You've posted 13 times so far. Care to fill us in on your background? Remember: you're surrounded by dozens of people who have already discussed this subject on hundreds of threads, follow The Four Rules as a way of life (and do so very safely as a result), have tought thousands of people about gun safety, and are taking the time to discuss the subject - again - with you.

I systematically analyzed the nearly 100 AD/NDs you listed. One quarter of cases were mechanical failures - unexpected, and being reduced by an industry obsessed with making things safer. Most of the rest were variations of "I didn't know it was loaded" - a flat-out violation of RULE 1; if someone won't recognize IT'S A GUN - IT'S DANGEROUS and treat at as such per RULE 1, more rules won't help.

A lot of experienced intelligent people disagree with you - yet, here we are, discussing it with you. Perhaps you should consider being more open-minded and try to understand what we're telling you ... just as we're analyzing your statements and trying to understand you.