My wife has a .32 North American Arms Guardian. First, I know what it's for. A pocket carry SD weapon. However, I can't stand the thing. It's horribly small and uncomfortable to shoot. Even she has to pull the trigger with the tip of her finger. That and the pull is extremely long. I've entertained going up in size to the .380 for a slightly bigger frame. Does anyone do trigger jobs on these? Are there short triggers available?
Any worthwhile mods to NAA Guardian in .32ACP?
- Thread starter watarski
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PX15
Member
FWIW:
My wife never felt "warm and fuzzy" about my NAA Guardian, but the moment she held my Seecamp LWS32 she wanted one for her own.. Now she's happy..
Best Wishes,
J. Pomeroy
PX15
Member
FMOFO:
Well.. Here's MY opinion based on owning both.
I've had my NAA Guardian for 8-10 years. (It's an AA series). It has been an excellent little pistol, and other than for a very early feeding problem, (which was fixed under warranty) it's never missed a beat. I would recommend the Guardian to anyone..
When I bought my Guardian the Seecamps were retailed at $425 (about the same price as the Guardian at the time), but being scalped at $800+ because of the limited availability caused by low production. That's why I bought the NAA in the first place.
Now in 2007 the Seecamp LWS32 is still retailed at $425.00 and while it generally takes a couple of months to get one (sometimes at slightly less than retail) it's well worth the wait.
Or, the price between the two NOW is so close as to be no factor. If you want to see the true value difference between the two check out the prices of used Seecamps vs used NAA Guardians.. No comparison.
I have found the Seecamp to be absolutely top quality.. They are in fact almost semi-custom built firearms. In fact Larry Seecamp the owner of Seecamp works on each one individually, and test fires them before release for sale to the public.
The Seecamp is just smaller enough as compared to the NAA to make it perfect for cc.. I carry my LWS32 in a rear wallet holster, altho lots of folks prefer front pocket carry. With the NAA I felt the need for a fingertip extension to the mag for comfortable use, but for some reason I don't need one on the Seecamp.
The advantages IMO of the NAA over the Seecamp is that it WILL accept (I think) almost any 32cal round, hp or ball.. The Seecamp is designed for and will only accept hp's, and Larry Seecamp only recommends Silvertips or Gold Dots and a couple of others, altho any hp of the same dimensions will function in any Seecamp mfg. after 31,000. (My wifes and my Seecamps are 47,000+).
When Larry Seecamp started mfg the LWS380 he went to a stronger stainless steel, and all Seecamps now use that material which accounts for the difference in what rounds a Seecamp will fire reliably. The LWS32 and the LWS380 are almost precisely the same size.
The NAA has sights, altho rudimentary.. The Seecamp, by design, has no sights, but is "slick". Larry Seecamp would be the first to tell you that his pistols are in fact last ditch "get off me" weapons to be used up close and personal and sights for that type defense are absolute worthless. You won't be looking for a proper "sight picture" if someone is attacking you. You will point at center mass and pull the trigger. Since the NAA has basic sights you would generally be more accurate shooting at targets, if that's your interest.
NAA offers much more in the way of holsters, grips, engraving, etc. than Seecamp.
I think either the NAA Guardian or the Seecamp will serve you well.. It's just that the Seecamp is generally acknowledged as the absolute finest, top in quality, mousegun on the planet.
As folks like to say you can drive a Chevy from California to New York just fine. You can drive a Porsche 911 from California to New York just fine too... Which would you prefer to drive for the trip?
I do not knock NAA Guardians. I bought mine new, NAA Customer Service is excellent and they are fine pistols.
Seecamps are simply a notch above. If you ever hold one you will buy one. Simple as that. I suggest you monitor the www.seecamp.com forum for a few days and you will find out the appreciation we Seecamp owners have for our fine little pistols.
By the way, our 2 Seecamps love Speer Gold Dots and that's our carry round of choice. I like my Seecamp LWS32 so well I've just recently ordered an LWS380... And the 380 still takes a year to get after you order one...
As I'm sure you know the NAA Guardian is basically an imitation of the Seecamp.. No one at NAA I think will dispute that. So, if "imitation is the most sincere form of flattery" I should say Sandy Chishom (hope I spelled his name correctly) had a very high opinion of the Seecamp himself.
NAA Guardians are excellent... Seecamps IMO are perfect.
YMMV
Best Wishes,
J. Pomeroy
Joe Demko
Member
I had an AA-series Guardian that I gave my dad. He's carried it for years. I did the following things:
1. Replaced the magazine catch with an upgraded one from NAA. They sent it to me for free. Presumably, this isn't needed on yours.
2. Used a file to remove the useless rear sight.
3. Used primer and paint to make the "sight rib" flat black and the front sight day-glo orange.
4. I dry-fired it 1.73 jillion times with snap caps. The trigger smoothed up considerably. I also lubed the trigger assembly with a spray-on dry film lube that is some wonderful stuff.
The Guardian is nifty little gun. With the exception of weight, I found it superior to my P-32. Mine was accurate and liked every kind of ammo I ever fed it. Dad has been pretty pleased with it too.
1. Replaced the magazine catch with an upgraded one from NAA. They sent it to me for free. Presumably, this isn't needed on yours.
2. Used a file to remove the useless rear sight.
3. Used primer and paint to make the "sight rib" flat black and the front sight day-glo orange.
4. I dry-fired it 1.73 jillion times with snap caps. The trigger smoothed up considerably. I also lubed the trigger assembly with a spray-on dry film lube that is some wonderful stuff.
The Guardian is nifty little gun. With the exception of weight, I found it superior to my P-32. Mine was accurate and liked every kind of ammo I ever fed it. Dad has been pretty pleased with it too.
Here is a copy of my reply to the same thread you posted on TFL.
Quote:
I have two Guardians, 32 and 380. The reason for the heavy trigger pull is that is the saftey on a pocket gun!!! Just like a revolver. If you go to the NAA message board there is quite a lot of talk about a Teddy Jackson or something like that, he does trigger jobs down to 3.5lbs on the Guardians, but I think this is crazy for pocket carry. I promise you in a real SD situation you will never remember the trigger pull. I have the Gutter Sniping done on my 32 acp and I soon plan on sending the 380 in for the same as well as the Scale serations on the slide. Go to NAA's website and you can see all the stuff their custom shop can do.
Here is a pic of my twins,
Here is a pic of the gutter sniping,
Now in respons to some of the comments mentioned above.
The Guadian IS NOT A COPY OF THE SEECAMP PISTOL!!! It is a entirely different pistol. I would also not compare the differenc between the two as Chevy to a Benz, The Seecamp is also not the cadillac of pocket guns that place would be taken by the Rohrbaugh pistol. Now I'm not knocking the Seecamp it is a very high quality weapon, and I agree with the differences posted above, except let me give you my experience, and yes I have handled and fired many Seecamps in 32 and 380acp. The finger extension available with the Guardian makes a HUGE difference if you have large hands. I don't understand how you can say you need the extension mag when firing the Guardian but don't when firing the Seecamp. The Seecamp is a smaller pistol and trust me if Seecamp offered a extension mag (which they should) you would definetly want one. I believe smaller is not always better and you can get to small in pocket pistols. I find the P3AT 380 to small and painful to shoot, so to me the small difference is size greatly aids in firing the gun especially with the snappier 380 SD loads. As for the sights being useless on a gun like this I strongly disagree, the above member claims that the only thing a gun this small is good for is when the BG is on top of you and you want him off. Sorry, I would prefer to stop the threat before he is on top of me. I believe you should practice and be able to hit your target on any firearm you carry for SD out to at least 7 yards. The night sights help greatly in sight aquisition especially in low light/no light conditions. The night sights glow so brightly it also makes acquiring the gun in the dark while it is sitting on the nightstand. I too use to think sights were uneeded on a pistol like this but I have changed my mind after owning the gutter sniped 32 Guardian and will soon send my G380 off to have this done. Also as said the Guardian doesn't require shooting expensive SD ammo for practicing. The heavy trigger pull is a saftey feature on a pocket gun like this, but if you really want it lighter there is a gunsmith named Teddy Jacobson, I believe this is his name that will lighten the trigger down to 3.5lbs, but I would caution doing this. I promise you in a SD situation you will never remember the trigger pull.
The above is simply what I have found by shooting the two different guns. In the end we all have different opinions and we all must buy what best suits us, no matter what others have to say about it. The main thing is any SD weapon carried must be 100% reliable and I believe both the Seecamp and the Guardian will fill this requirement, so take what has been mentioned in this post and buy what best suits your needs. If there is anyway you can shoot both of them I highly recommend doing so. I believe you will see just how important those mag extensions can be. Unfortunately these are not the type of guns you will find for rent at most firing ranges. If anyone lives close to me they are welcome to come by and shoot any of my guns.
Take Care
NCHornet
Quote:
I have two Guardians, 32 and 380. The reason for the heavy trigger pull is that is the saftey on a pocket gun!!! Just like a revolver. If you go to the NAA message board there is quite a lot of talk about a Teddy Jackson or something like that, he does trigger jobs down to 3.5lbs on the Guardians, but I think this is crazy for pocket carry. I promise you in a real SD situation you will never remember the trigger pull. I have the Gutter Sniping done on my 32 acp and I soon plan on sending the 380 in for the same as well as the Scale serations on the slide. Go to NAA's website and you can see all the stuff their custom shop can do.
Here is a pic of my twins,
Here is a pic of the gutter sniping,
Now in respons to some of the comments mentioned above.
The Guadian IS NOT A COPY OF THE SEECAMP PISTOL!!! It is a entirely different pistol. I would also not compare the differenc between the two as Chevy to a Benz, The Seecamp is also not the cadillac of pocket guns that place would be taken by the Rohrbaugh pistol. Now I'm not knocking the Seecamp it is a very high quality weapon, and I agree with the differences posted above, except let me give you my experience, and yes I have handled and fired many Seecamps in 32 and 380acp. The finger extension available with the Guardian makes a HUGE difference if you have large hands. I don't understand how you can say you need the extension mag when firing the Guardian but don't when firing the Seecamp. The Seecamp is a smaller pistol and trust me if Seecamp offered a extension mag (which they should) you would definetly want one. I believe smaller is not always better and you can get to small in pocket pistols. I find the P3AT 380 to small and painful to shoot, so to me the small difference is size greatly aids in firing the gun especially with the snappier 380 SD loads. As for the sights being useless on a gun like this I strongly disagree, the above member claims that the only thing a gun this small is good for is when the BG is on top of you and you want him off. Sorry, I would prefer to stop the threat before he is on top of me. I believe you should practice and be able to hit your target on any firearm you carry for SD out to at least 7 yards. The night sights help greatly in sight aquisition especially in low light/no light conditions. The night sights glow so brightly it also makes acquiring the gun in the dark while it is sitting on the nightstand. I too use to think sights were uneeded on a pistol like this but I have changed my mind after owning the gutter sniped 32 Guardian and will soon send my G380 off to have this done. Also as said the Guardian doesn't require shooting expensive SD ammo for practicing. The heavy trigger pull is a saftey feature on a pocket gun like this, but if you really want it lighter there is a gunsmith named Teddy Jacobson, I believe this is his name that will lighten the trigger down to 3.5lbs, but I would caution doing this. I promise you in a SD situation you will never remember the trigger pull.
The above is simply what I have found by shooting the two different guns. In the end we all have different opinions and we all must buy what best suits us, no matter what others have to say about it. The main thing is any SD weapon carried must be 100% reliable and I believe both the Seecamp and the Guardian will fill this requirement, so take what has been mentioned in this post and buy what best suits your needs. If there is anyway you can shoot both of them I highly recommend doing so. I believe you will see just how important those mag extensions can be. Unfortunately these are not the type of guns you will find for rent at most firing ranges. If anyone lives close to me they are welcome to come by and shoot any of my guns.
Take Care
NCHornet
SouthpawShootr
Member
I have the .380 Guardian and the only modification I would make would be the guttersnipe sight pictured above. The factory sights are a joke on this gun. It really doesn't need sights, but the guttersnipe "sight" quickly helps you make sure your gun is appropriately aligned. I'm going to send mine back and have this done.
denfoote
Member
I read an article, years ago about a smith that did work on the NAA Guardian.
I can't remember who it was. Since I don't have one, I didn't pay that much attention!!
You might try Cylinder and Slide.
I can't remember who it was. Since I don't have one, I didn't pay that much attention!!
You might try Cylinder and Slide.
SouthpawShootr
Member
Is it new? The reason NAA Guardians are a bit tough to turn up right now (and for about the past year seems like) is that they had a falling out with Kahr, who was supplying their frames (the .380s at least - don't know about the .32s). I bought my .380 several years back for $400 OTD & NIB. I would say if it's a new gun and in that ballpark, then it's a good price. Cheaper for a .32ACP. Used? Probably $300-$325 would be good. You're going to have to make the decision yourself, though. The current short supply is causing some wild things with pricing. I saw a new .380 Guardian in a local shop a few months ago for $425 and it lasted exactly 3 days. Good luck. Also, if you need (want) the gun right now, consider the Seecamp. See what you can get one for. The Guardians really are nice guns. I said before, I wanted to send mine in for Guttersnipe sights, but I've been dragging my feet b/c I'm so reluctant to let the gun out of my hands.
On the bright side, I read recently that NAA has a new supplier for the frames. I'm told it's Ruger. Should be real good for NAA b/c Ruger's been doing other's metal work for some time and they're much more experienced and reliable compared to Kahr. They're a much larger operation, so economies of scale should work in NAA's favor. Read up on this in Sandy's Soapbox at www.naaminis.com. Sandy's well known for giving it like it is.
NAA did trigger jobs for me. I also had the dehorning package, the fish scales and the grip stippling done while they were there.
I wish I had asked them to do the guttersnipe sights while they had them...
As for the Seecamp, they're fine pistols, but the big thing I don't like about them, is the mag disconnect. ESPECIALLY that you can't even cycle the slide without a magazine.
I wish I had asked them to do the guttersnipe sights while they had them...
As for the Seecamp, they're fine pistols, but the big thing I don't like about them, is the mag disconnect. ESPECIALLY that you can't even cycle the slide without a magazine.
SouthpawShootr
Member
Yes, you are correct. My source was incorrect (I should have anticipated this this). Any of you want to read the thread, here it is:
Guardian thread
It seems they're going to eventually switch completely over to in-house. One nice little tidbit is that the 32s are made entirely in-house. It's the .380 that's outsourced.
usp9
Member
PX15 said,
Silvertips or Gold Dots and a couple of others work just fine in serial numbers 0 to 29,999 too... just for the record.
I have very limited experience with the Guardian but what I remember was the heavy trigger, not as nice as a stock Seecamp trigger. Otherwise it seemed quality gun. If this is for your wife, the .380 may be a real handful. Some describe the experience as painful. Perhaps you and/or she simply needs a bit larger gun.
The Guardian .380 is currently out of production and may be hard to find anyway. There is a plethera of small .32 - 9mm guns to try...why limit yourself to this one? Before I started turning a $400 gun I didn't like into a modified $700 gun I didn't like, I'd explore other possibilities.
Silvertips or Gold Dots and a couple of others work just fine in serial numbers 0 to 29,999 too... just for the record.
I have very limited experience with the Guardian but what I remember was the heavy trigger, not as nice as a stock Seecamp trigger. Otherwise it seemed quality gun. If this is for your wife, the .380 may be a real handful. Some describe the experience as painful. Perhaps you and/or she simply needs a bit larger gun.
The Guardian .380 is currently out of production and may be hard to find anyway. There is a plethera of small .32 - 9mm guns to try...why limit yourself to this one? Before I started turning a $400 gun I didn't like into a modified $700 gun I didn't like, I'd explore other possibilities.
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SouthpawShootr
Member
Kahr only supplied the frame forgings. Fine machine work (fitting), slide manufacture, assembly, and test fire was done by NAA. Their current relationship with another vender for the frames is the same. They supposedly are producing some units, but production is nowhere close to demand.
At any rate, the OP was inquiring about the .32 which is produced entirely in-house. They still don't seem to be common. I'm betting some of the people waiting on the 380 are buying the 32.
At any rate, the OP was inquiring about the .32 which is produced entirely in-house. They still don't seem to be common. I'm betting some of the people waiting on the 380 are buying the 32.
PX15
Member
NCHornet:
Well, I'm an old fart, so really don't care to getting into a pissing contest with your regarding what works for me vs what works for you in regards to the differences between the NAA Guardian and the Seecamp.
Having said that please allow me to offer my opinion on your opinions on this matter.
A. I agree with you that the heavy DA trigger pull is a necessity and reducing that trigger pull is imo reducing the safety factor that the DA trigger pull offers in the first place. Or, I wouldn't do it.
B. When I say the Guardian is basically a copy of the Seecamp I am just relating what I have read in the media many, many times over the years.. Just as I have read where Sandy Chishom approached Larry Seecamp and offered to buy Seecamp, Larry wouldn't sell, so Sandy basically cloned the Seecamp with minor differences, which in fact some folks consider as "improvements", some don't. I would suggest you take a look at my picture posted above showing the Guardian and the Seecamp side by side..
I have said I have a great deal of appreciation for the Guardian. I have owned two over the years, (still own the one pictured), but FOR MY NEEDS AND APPRECIATION, (please note the MY) the Seecamp is indeed the Benz/Porsche/Jag in comparison to any lesser quality automobile you chose to represent the Guardian. The Seecamp is simply a higher quality product and I think 99.9% of folks who have experience with both will agree with me.. Perhaps you don't, but that's why we are discussing "opinions" here, and just as elbows and *******s we all have one.
C. Sights. A mousegun by it's very nature is in fact a "last ditch, up close and personal" self defense weapon.. It will be used only in a crisis situation and when that happens you will be watching the threat and not looking for a sight picture. You are more than welcome to disagree with me on this, but I'd be willing to bet you that if you took a poll of people who have actually experienced such a situation the great majority of them would indeed say they never even thought of sights, just pulling the weapon, pointing at the center mass of threat, and pulling the trigger until all that can be heard is a click...
Talking about hitting a target from a mousegun, with or without sights at 7 yards under a crisis condition is a joke. I just wish everyone reading this post will take the time to walk off seven yards and then honestly say they think they would be legally within their rights to even shoot at someone that far away, and secondly the chances if that happened they could actually hit anything.
I'm not talking hitting a pie plate at the range under normal conditions, I'm talking a heart pounding, adrenalin rushing, unexpected confrontation that is happening "right now" and is happening so fast that all you can do is hopefully have time to pull your concealed firearm and shoot AT the bad guy. You cannot look for a sight picture under such conditions you just don't have time or a history of experience to allow you the presence of mind to do that.
Unless of course you are a Navy Seal, or some such and have had extensive training for just such a situation. I'm not so trained, how about you? How about 99% of the average person cc a firearm?
I repeat if you are counting on acquiring a sight picture at a time like this I believe you are mistaken.
D. Need for a fingertip mag. extension.
Well, please notice I have one on my NAA Guardian. I have small hands, but at one time I must have thought the fingertip extension a necessity. (I also have one on my KelTec P32). After I bought and fired my Seecamp I simply did not feel the need for one. Can't explain it to you better than that. All I can say is I still have the NAA Guardian w/fingertip extension in my gunsafe, and I cc my Seecamp without a fingertip extension every day. Anything that makes a cc weapon larger makes it proportionally less concealable.
When I chose to cc my Guardian or P32 in a rear wallet holster with the fingertip mag extensions on them a person standing behind you could many times see the top of those pistols whereas the chances of that with the Seecamp is dramatically less.
The Seecamp is the only pistol I've ever owned that I can put in a rear wallet holster and have it with me all day long and never even feel it's there. It's just small enough to allow me to do that whereas the Guardian w/fingertip mag extension is not.
You say you have "big hands", maybe you need the fingertip extension, can't argue with you there.
Now if what I have said is offensive to you then that is certainly not my intention. I am telling the truth as I know it, and if my facts are wrong regarding anything I've said I'll be happy to apologize. Obviously I haven't spoken to Sandy or Larry regarding the particulars of the Seecamp/NAA connection so I'm just repeating what I've read on that issue.
Please note I still have my Guardian. I am not a NAA Guardian "basher", and I think highly of my NAA firearm. It's just that I have had personal experience with the Seecamp and the Guardian, and FOR ME the Seecamp wins hands down in the comparison.
As I said before it's all opinion, mine no more valid that yours. I am curious as to how much pricy 32cal. self defense ammo you would have to run thru your mousegun of choice on a regular basis to become competent at hitting a moving target at 7 yards. I just don't think 99% of folks who cc a mousegun for self defense have the interest, time, money to invest in doing that.
To my mind a mousegun by it's very nature is a "carried a lot, fired a little" weapon. Regular practice is preferred, but probably most folks don't shoot their mouseguns more than two or three times a year. Maybe less?
Finally, the only two differences (other than Seecamp quality) between the NAA Guardian and the LWS32 would be the style of mag release, and the manner of disassembly.
The Guardian has the mag release button on the left side while the Seecamp has the European "heel" type. I prefer the heel type because in the past I've had issues with accidental mag release while the P32 was carried in my back pocket. (Never happened with the Guardian)
Honestly I thought I would like the Guardian push button for disassembly vs the having to "push" a pin in the hole to disassemble the Seecamp but surprisingly I can disassemble the Seecamp easier than I can the Guardian. I don't know why that is.
Both the NAA Guardian and the Seecamp LWS32 are in my old fart opinion excellent pistols. I should hope that anyone considering buying one of the two would indeed hold, and shoot both. Then make a decision as to which fits his/her needs the best.
Best Wishes,
J. Pomeroy
Well, I'm an old fart, so really don't care to getting into a pissing contest with your regarding what works for me vs what works for you in regards to the differences between the NAA Guardian and the Seecamp.
Having said that please allow me to offer my opinion on your opinions on this matter.
A. I agree with you that the heavy DA trigger pull is a necessity and reducing that trigger pull is imo reducing the safety factor that the DA trigger pull offers in the first place. Or, I wouldn't do it.
B. When I say the Guardian is basically a copy of the Seecamp I am just relating what I have read in the media many, many times over the years.. Just as I have read where Sandy Chishom approached Larry Seecamp and offered to buy Seecamp, Larry wouldn't sell, so Sandy basically cloned the Seecamp with minor differences, which in fact some folks consider as "improvements", some don't. I would suggest you take a look at my picture posted above showing the Guardian and the Seecamp side by side..
I have said I have a great deal of appreciation for the Guardian. I have owned two over the years, (still own the one pictured), but FOR MY NEEDS AND APPRECIATION, (please note the MY) the Seecamp is indeed the Benz/Porsche/Jag in comparison to any lesser quality automobile you chose to represent the Guardian. The Seecamp is simply a higher quality product and I think 99.9% of folks who have experience with both will agree with me.. Perhaps you don't, but that's why we are discussing "opinions" here, and just as elbows and *******s we all have one.
C. Sights. A mousegun by it's very nature is in fact a "last ditch, up close and personal" self defense weapon.. It will be used only in a crisis situation and when that happens you will be watching the threat and not looking for a sight picture. You are more than welcome to disagree with me on this, but I'd be willing to bet you that if you took a poll of people who have actually experienced such a situation the great majority of them would indeed say they never even thought of sights, just pulling the weapon, pointing at the center mass of threat, and pulling the trigger until all that can be heard is a click...
Talking about hitting a target from a mousegun, with or without sights at 7 yards under a crisis condition is a joke. I just wish everyone reading this post will take the time to walk off seven yards and then honestly say they think they would be legally within their rights to even shoot at someone that far away, and secondly the chances if that happened they could actually hit anything.
I'm not talking hitting a pie plate at the range under normal conditions, I'm talking a heart pounding, adrenalin rushing, unexpected confrontation that is happening "right now" and is happening so fast that all you can do is hopefully have time to pull your concealed firearm and shoot AT the bad guy. You cannot look for a sight picture under such conditions you just don't have time or a history of experience to allow you the presence of mind to do that.
Unless of course you are a Navy Seal, or some such and have had extensive training for just such a situation. I'm not so trained, how about you? How about 99% of the average person cc a firearm?
I repeat if you are counting on acquiring a sight picture at a time like this I believe you are mistaken.
D. Need for a fingertip mag. extension.
Well, please notice I have one on my NAA Guardian. I have small hands, but at one time I must have thought the fingertip extension a necessity. (I also have one on my KelTec P32). After I bought and fired my Seecamp I simply did not feel the need for one. Can't explain it to you better than that. All I can say is I still have the NAA Guardian w/fingertip extension in my gunsafe, and I cc my Seecamp without a fingertip extension every day. Anything that makes a cc weapon larger makes it proportionally less concealable.
When I chose to cc my Guardian or P32 in a rear wallet holster with the fingertip mag extensions on them a person standing behind you could many times see the top of those pistols whereas the chances of that with the Seecamp is dramatically less.
The Seecamp is the only pistol I've ever owned that I can put in a rear wallet holster and have it with me all day long and never even feel it's there. It's just small enough to allow me to do that whereas the Guardian w/fingertip mag extension is not.
You say you have "big hands", maybe you need the fingertip extension, can't argue with you there.
Now if what I have said is offensive to you then that is certainly not my intention. I am telling the truth as I know it, and if my facts are wrong regarding anything I've said I'll be happy to apologize. Obviously I haven't spoken to Sandy or Larry regarding the particulars of the Seecamp/NAA connection so I'm just repeating what I've read on that issue.
Please note I still have my Guardian. I am not a NAA Guardian "basher", and I think highly of my NAA firearm. It's just that I have had personal experience with the Seecamp and the Guardian, and FOR ME the Seecamp wins hands down in the comparison.
As I said before it's all opinion, mine no more valid that yours. I am curious as to how much pricy 32cal. self defense ammo you would have to run thru your mousegun of choice on a regular basis to become competent at hitting a moving target at 7 yards. I just don't think 99% of folks who cc a mousegun for self defense have the interest, time, money to invest in doing that.
To my mind a mousegun by it's very nature is a "carried a lot, fired a little" weapon. Regular practice is preferred, but probably most folks don't shoot their mouseguns more than two or three times a year. Maybe less?
Finally, the only two differences (other than Seecamp quality) between the NAA Guardian and the LWS32 would be the style of mag release, and the manner of disassembly.
The Guardian has the mag release button on the left side while the Seecamp has the European "heel" type. I prefer the heel type because in the past I've had issues with accidental mag release while the P32 was carried in my back pocket. (Never happened with the Guardian)
Honestly I thought I would like the Guardian push button for disassembly vs the having to "push" a pin in the hole to disassemble the Seecamp but surprisingly I can disassemble the Seecamp easier than I can the Guardian. I don't know why that is.
Both the NAA Guardian and the Seecamp LWS32 are in my old fart opinion excellent pistols. I should hope that anyone considering buying one of the two would indeed hold, and shoot both. Then make a decision as to which fits his/her needs the best.
Best Wishes,
J. Pomeroy
Not correct, Latva the company doing the work for the 380 Guardian is producing the frames and slides, not just frames. Here is Sndy's post (The CEO of NAA) regarding the subject.
We have found that we still don't have the capacity/resources to successfully address the backlog and make an adequate supply of all our pistol products. The 380s are not yet being made in house but instead by a New England company called Latva http://www.latva.com/index.html
We expect to receive first-article frames early in the coming week and that we will return to full production shortly thereafter. We are hoping/expecting that they will be the equal of the first-article slides which they delived several weeks ago, whose quality and dimensional accuracy was outstanding. We will keep you advised.
We have found that we still don't have the capacity/resources to successfully address the backlog and make an adequate supply of all our pistol products. The 380s are not yet being made in house but instead by a New England company called Latva http://www.latva.com/index.html
We expect to receive first-article frames early in the coming week and that we will return to full production shortly thereafter. We are hoping/expecting that they will be the equal of the first-article slides which they delived several weeks ago, whose quality and dimensional accuracy was outstanding. We will keep you advised.
yesit'sloaded
Member
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2007
- Messages
- 1,662
I just walked off 7 yards
Thats a long...long way in a self defense type shooting. I would shoot someone at that range if they were armed, but with a handgun I'd say thats a good shot under stress. With a mousegun like that it would be a crazy good shot. One time I walked up on a cottonmouth and when I jumped back it was probably 5 feet from me. Took 4 shots to hit it, and I practice with that gun at least twice a month at distances up to 25 yards. It's like when you are about to take a shot deer hunting, except everything is accelerated and crazy and that was just a four foot long snake.
Thats a long...long way in a self defense type shooting. I would shoot someone at that range if they were armed, but with a handgun I'd say thats a good shot under stress. With a mousegun like that it would be a crazy good shot. One time I walked up on a cottonmouth and when I jumped back it was probably 5 feet from me. Took 4 shots to hit it, and I practice with that gun at least twice a month at distances up to 25 yards. It's like when you are about to take a shot deer hunting, except everything is accelerated and crazy and that was just a four foot long snake.alamo
Member
I certainly agree with this. They are essentially the same pistol with the NAA having a different magazine release and the disassembly button. I used to own a Seecamp and I've got 2 Autauga .32s. The Autauga is even closer copy of the Seecamp. It's a fine pistol, a bit lighter than the Guardian and a better trigger pull. It's not as good a pistol as the Seecamp though.
The parts diagrams in the owners manuals show how similar they are:
http://www.seecamp.com/OwnersManual.pdf
http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/NAA_Guardian/grdowml.html
Leadbutt
Member
Have never owned the NAA, but have heard several good comments on them from those I trust,, Have owned and still own Secamps 25,32,380 all are well made firearms and fit the niche of deep cover easily carried handguns.
If Teddy "J" is offering trigger jobs, there is none better for the work,his work on SIG's is outstanding. But I had read some time back he was or is retiring.
If Teddy "J" is offering trigger jobs, there is none better for the work,his work on SIG's is outstanding. But I had read some time back he was or is retiring.
saltydog452
Member
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2004
- Messages
- 1,707
Nope, no modifications.
Get extra mazazines.
Get extra recoil springs.
Keep it clean. Lint in a 'pocket pistol' is not a good idea.
I've had two Seacamps and one NAA .32.
Several phone calls, and USPS snail mail letters, wih return envelopes and postage to Seacamp went unanswered. These calls and letters were asking about buying repacement battered recoil spring and magazines.
The Seacamp recoil spring was beat all to helen-and-gone after less than two boxes of .32 ball. My 'Bic' ball point pen had about as much compression/return energy.
I bought another. Same problem. Same requests to Seacamp family regarding sale of replacement springs. Same result.
Bought a NAA Guardian. No malfunctions after 200 rds of mixed ball and JHP with either mgazine. I still wanted replacement springs and magazines. An e-mail to NAA resulted in prompt shipment of two recoil springs...gratis.
I'm told that the Seacamp folks are more responsive now. I doubt that I'll ever know for sure.
Competition is A Good Thing.
YMMV
salty.
Get extra mazazines.
Get extra recoil springs.
Keep it clean. Lint in a 'pocket pistol' is not a good idea.
I've had two Seacamps and one NAA .32.
Several phone calls, and USPS snail mail letters, wih return envelopes and postage to Seacamp went unanswered. These calls and letters were asking about buying repacement battered recoil spring and magazines.
The Seacamp recoil spring was beat all to helen-and-gone after less than two boxes of .32 ball. My 'Bic' ball point pen had about as much compression/return energy.
I bought another. Same problem. Same requests to Seacamp family regarding sale of replacement springs. Same result.
Bought a NAA Guardian. No malfunctions after 200 rds of mixed ball and JHP with either mgazine. I still wanted replacement springs and magazines. An e-mail to NAA resulted in prompt shipment of two recoil springs...gratis.
I'm told that the Seacamp folks are more responsive now. I doubt that I'll ever know for sure.
Competition is A Good Thing.
YMMV
salty.
usp9
Member
saltydog452 said,
How in the world did you get ball ammo in a Seecamp magazine? Not only will most all ball ammo not fit, it is not recommended. FWIW, my original recoil spring lasted 20 years and alot of ammo. Replaced it just this past year.
How in the world did you get ball ammo in a Seecamp magazine? Not only will most all ball ammo not fit, it is not recommended. FWIW, my original recoil spring lasted 20 years and alot of ammo. Replaced it just this past year.
PX15
Member
FWIW:
saltydog452:
Monitor the www.seecamp.com forum for a few days and you'll find out whatever problems Seecamp had in the area you mentioned are ancient history.. Larry Seecamp is on the forum almost every day, and if a Seecamp owner has a problem Larry gives that person his cell phone number, or business office phone number and I've yet to hear of a customer with a problem not be being satisfied 100%.
I know where you are coming from in one sense tho.. I had a new 1st series Beretta Tomcat years ago and it was a pos. I sent it back to the factory two times, and NEVER got any satisfaction from the folks answering the phone at Beretta non-customer service. The most arrogant, pompous bunch I've ever seen.
Fortunately someone at UPS with no taste stole the Tomcat on it's 2nd return trip and insurance paid off and I swore off on Beretta pistols forever.. I've heard the new generation Tomcats were beefed up and are indeed good little pistols, but I simply refuse to deal with Beretta again because of my past history with them.. I guess you feel the same way regarding Seecamps.
I have read where Larry Seecamp acknowledges that at one time several years ago he was having problems regarding answering phones and customer questions or problems, but truthfully that situation has been 100% resolved, Larry has acknowledged the problem and made apologies for it.
That's about all a person can do, right?
Seecamp is a very small company. I think there are in total 7 persons involved in the manufacture of Seecamps. At this point in time every Seecamp Larry makes is sold. In fact the 380's have approximately a one year waiting list. I got my first Seecamp in around a month after I ordered it, and my wifes personalized Seecamp in approximately 2-3 months after I placed an order for it.
I would respectfully suggest you have a legitimate gripe at the problems you encountered, and it is certainly your right to stay clear of Seecamps if that is your choice, but I honestly tell you the situation you mentioned is NOT the way Seecamp is run today.
I don't want anything to do with Beretta, but there are multitudes of satisfied Beretta customers all over the U.S. You don't want anything to do with Seecamp and if you will research you will find 99.9% of Seecamp owners are perfectly satisfied with their pistols, and have nothing but good things to say about the quality of their Seecamp pistols in general and Larry Seecamp the person in particular.
The problem you mentioned regarding recoil springs and ball ammo is a bit confusing though.. Seecamps are designed specifically for hollow point ammo and ball ammo simply should not even function in a Seecamp. (Perhaps if you took the "rimlock preventor out of the magazine,?). It is made very clear in the Seecamp owners manual about the approved ammo, and for years that specific ammo was only Winchester Silvertips. Even today only hollow point ammo will function in Seecamps, with the exception of Winchester Q4255 which is a newly introduced "stubby" ball round. It is not recommended that Q4255's is used for anything but practice. My wife and I use Speer "Gold Dot's" in both our Seecamp LWS32's.
I think probably you and I are both wrong in our attitudes. We are certainly entitled to them because of a past issue that we should probably put down and walk away from..
But, to each his own..
Best Wishes,
Jesse Pomeroy
saltydog452:
Monitor the www.seecamp.com forum for a few days and you'll find out whatever problems Seecamp had in the area you mentioned are ancient history.. Larry Seecamp is on the forum almost every day, and if a Seecamp owner has a problem Larry gives that person his cell phone number, or business office phone number and I've yet to hear of a customer with a problem not be being satisfied 100%.
I know where you are coming from in one sense tho.. I had a new 1st series Beretta Tomcat years ago and it was a pos. I sent it back to the factory two times, and NEVER got any satisfaction from the folks answering the phone at Beretta non-customer service. The most arrogant, pompous bunch I've ever seen.
Fortunately someone at UPS with no taste stole the Tomcat on it's 2nd return trip and insurance paid off and I swore off on Beretta pistols forever.. I've heard the new generation Tomcats were beefed up and are indeed good little pistols, but I simply refuse to deal with Beretta again because of my past history with them.. I guess you feel the same way regarding Seecamps.
I have read where Larry Seecamp acknowledges that at one time several years ago he was having problems regarding answering phones and customer questions or problems, but truthfully that situation has been 100% resolved, Larry has acknowledged the problem and made apologies for it.
That's about all a person can do, right?
Seecamp is a very small company. I think there are in total 7 persons involved in the manufacture of Seecamps. At this point in time every Seecamp Larry makes is sold. In fact the 380's have approximately a one year waiting list. I got my first Seecamp in around a month after I ordered it, and my wifes personalized Seecamp in approximately 2-3 months after I placed an order for it.
I would respectfully suggest you have a legitimate gripe at the problems you encountered, and it is certainly your right to stay clear of Seecamps if that is your choice, but I honestly tell you the situation you mentioned is NOT the way Seecamp is run today.
I don't want anything to do with Beretta, but there are multitudes of satisfied Beretta customers all over the U.S. You don't want anything to do with Seecamp and if you will research you will find 99.9% of Seecamp owners are perfectly satisfied with their pistols, and have nothing but good things to say about the quality of their Seecamp pistols in general and Larry Seecamp the person in particular.
The problem you mentioned regarding recoil springs and ball ammo is a bit confusing though.. Seecamps are designed specifically for hollow point ammo and ball ammo simply should not even function in a Seecamp. (Perhaps if you took the "rimlock preventor out of the magazine,?). It is made very clear in the Seecamp owners manual about the approved ammo, and for years that specific ammo was only Winchester Silvertips. Even today only hollow point ammo will function in Seecamps, with the exception of Winchester Q4255 which is a newly introduced "stubby" ball round. It is not recommended that Q4255's is used for anything but practice. My wife and I use Speer "Gold Dot's" in both our Seecamp LWS32's.
I think probably you and I are both wrong in our attitudes. We are certainly entitled to them because of a past issue that we should probably put down and walk away from..
But, to each his own..
Best Wishes,
Jesse Pomeroy
I had a slightly similar situation on a Seecamp .32 as saltydog. I posted this before somewhere, so it may be redundant, but I bought a .32 Seecamp around 1988-89. (I paid around $600 for it.)
Repeated inquiries and requests for spare magazines were unanswered (it only came with one). I felt at the time if I couldn't get extra magazines, I didn't want one, so I sold it.
Like you, I've read they are much better today and PX15 has been very convincing in a good way, that they deserve another try. I'll probably order another .32 from them in the near future.
Repeated inquiries and requests for spare magazines were unanswered (it only came with one). I felt at the time if I couldn't get extra magazines, I didn't want one, so I sold it.
Like you, I've read they are much better today and PX15 has been very convincing in a good way, that they deserve another try. I'll probably order another .32 from them in the near future.
saltydog452
Member
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2004
- Messages
- 1,707
OOps...Its amazing how time and a hurried response mixed with disgust can alter whats left of memory cells.
The ammunition mentioned was not, repeat, was not ball, but WW Silvertip.
I guess what ticked me off wasn't the faulty spring or the asbsence of additional magizine availability but the indifference of the Seacamp outfit.
They had a ready market and was selling all that they could make.
Gun sc ribes like Ayoob and Fowler had access, and could even get personal serial numbered guns.
For me, they would not even answer the phone. A USPS letter, with return, stamped envelope enclosed was also ignored. This was not a single attempt at communication with these folks.
An e-mail to Grossman at NAA resulted in, not only a timely response, but two recoil springs in the mail a few days later.
These folks at Seacamp may now be the salt of the earth, but at that time, they were an arrogant bunch. All they had to do was pick up the phone or place a response in a pre-stamped envelope.
Competition works.
salty.
The ammunition mentioned was not, repeat, was not ball, but WW Silvertip.
I guess what ticked me off wasn't the faulty spring or the asbsence of additional magizine availability but the indifference of the Seacamp outfit.
They had a ready market and was selling all that they could make.
Gun sc ribes like Ayoob and Fowler had access, and could even get personal serial numbered guns.
For me, they would not even answer the phone. A USPS letter, with return, stamped envelope enclosed was also ignored. This was not a single attempt at communication with these folks.
An e-mail to Grossman at NAA resulted in, not only a timely response, but two recoil springs in the mail a few days later.
These folks at Seacamp may now be the salt of the earth, but at that time, they were an arrogant bunch. All they had to do was pick up the phone or place a response in a pre-stamped envelope.
Competition works.
salty.
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