Anyone else enjoy a malfunctioning auto?

[MMCSRET]

I have been an industrial and construction heavy equipment mechanic most of my adult life and I made a damn good living out of fixing large yellow machinery that didn't work when delivered. Sometimes under warranty and sometimes not. But it still had to be fixed to work. Even the ones that cost almost $1,000,000 still have to be fixed even before the paint is worn off the growsers.

 

[dagger dog]

I would not enjoy returning a malfuncioning pistol to the manufacturer, especially with no broken parts evident.

A broken part be it a spring, pin or other small part can't be avoided.
But a stove piping, or failure to feed with hard ball ammo is something that should have never left the factory for any reason.Should have been picked up in quality control.

The almighty $$ has taken over the quality control department of many a manufacturer.

 

[jocko]

spoiled I guess

I can honestly say I have never had an issue with the two kahrs I own, or the Smith M & P and the Glock 19, or the Mak, I once owned, or any of my 6 Smith revolvers, or my little NAA 22 or my lcp.

I did have issues with my Para Carry 9, and peddled it, I had major issues (17 times) with my 3 kt mini semi's, and I peddled them...

Had an Ithaca Modle 37 since I was 16 (now 64) and probably have 150,000+ rounds through it, never one malfunction, never a broken part. If you buy good stuff, more than likely they will reward you in kind..

 

[Geno]

I guess the best contribution that I can make to this thread, is to relate the advice from our Advanced Tactical Shooting instructor. I will not list his name, but will simply say he is one of the Sergeants of a major police department in SE Michigan. He has worked in some, ah...impressive, capacities, local, state and federal. As such, we were all pressing to him as to what he recommends, auto or revolver for the most reliable handgun. He told us in no uncertain terms, that

...in the line of duty, (he) has had 6 handguns fail him...3 pistols and 3 revolvers.

That handguns are simply tools that eventually will all break, is the very reason he strongly recommends that people always carry, at the very minimum, 1 back-up that is the same make, and can accept the magazines and rounds of the primary carry. Tools break.

For my part, I can accept an occasional failure, but I refuse to accept the position that an autoloader has to be broken-in.

 

[fastbolt]

... enjoy a malfunctioning auto?

Uh, No.

As previously mentioned, I expect new production firearms to function as designed and intended.

That's why I buy quality firearms from reputable, major firearms manufacturers with a history of making quality firearms.

Granted, when I first became a newly minted LE armorer for various types of firearms I enjoyed learning how to diagnose and correct/repair problems. As time passed, though, I started to tire of folks causing problems to occur by lack of basic & proper maintenance, as well as abuse and neglect. It's one thing to have to resolve a minor issue with a new gun because of an out-of-tolerance /defective/worn part (which can happen upon occasion), but it can become annoying when people do things which create problems and/or damage firearms.

Okay, I'll acknowledge that one of the main reasons I was originally interested in becoming trained as an armorer was so I could learn how to maintain and repair my own firearms.

I'd prefer for them to function in a monotonous fashion, though, requiring only routine periodic inspection and maintenance.

Comes to that, I don't enjoy cleaning firearms for the most part, either. I do it out of necessity, not fulfillment and personal enjoyment.

Hey, I have other things I'd rather be doing.

For the record, I also dislike having my cars, truck, motorcycles, computers, power tools & assorted other electrical equipment malfunction. I have other things I enjoy doing ... and tinkering with such things for the sheer enjoyment of it is far, far down on the list nowadays.

 

[Magic_Man]

All the $ we pay for these guns there's no reason they should need tinkering. If I ever have an issue with any of mine under warranty they will be sent back.

 

[loop]

Thanks to all for the responses.

I probably should have stated that I rarely buy a new gun because there are so many really good deals on guns that need a minor adjustment or a spring change that I can buy for hundreds less.

I've never had a pistol or revolver I gave up on before I got it to work.

I was out in my shop taking care of minor flaws in a few pistols most of the evening tonight.

One of my rare new purchases, an EAA Witness Elite Match .45 failed to return to battery in my last trip to the range. First malfunction in about 280 rounds.

I admit that before I shot it I replaced the firing pin and spring, recoil spring, hammer spring, front sight, mag spring and grips - thereby nullifying my warranty.

Tonight I polished the feed ramp and chamber, chaffered the edges of the chamber, put Locktite on all the screws and polished the portions of the slide that showed wear and polished the guide rod.

I also worked on my two "project" guns. A Para P12-45 and a SIG P220. The Para was a gun show "bargain." I knew the guy was full of crap because the gun looked like new and he said it was dead on POA and "never" failed.

It shot four inches to the left and when I got three rounds in a row out of it without a jam I felt lucky.

I replaced virtually every spring in the gun and the mags, replaced the mag followers and did routine polishing. A brass drift sight adjustment brought POI in line.

Now it is 100 percent reliable and hits to POA. The work I'm doing now is cosmetic because it is such a neat little gun. I've replaced the beaver tail with an extended, the safety with an extended, the slide catch with an extended and the mag catch. Next it gets sights and a black nickel job on the slide. The frame will be gray Parkerized. It is almost a completed project. I'll do a trigger job to it when everything else is done, but won't bother now because the trigger is very good as it is. BTW, all the add-on parts have been in silver stainless. It's a real good looking and great shooting gun - now.

The P220 is a different story. It is accurate and 100 percent reliable, but I got it for $300 because some fool beat it up and NEVER cleaned it. The barrel still looks dirty even when it's clean because someone let it get horrible. There are scratches on the right side (were some on the grip) where it looked like it skidded across pavement. Tonight I polished all the internals. I think the trigger pull dropped a pound.

I enjoy doing such things, but I was once a mechanic and now I'm the editor of business journal. I put the magazine to bed late last night and needed some stress relief and working on guns does that for me.

Thirty-five years ago riding bulls relieved the stress of being a mechanic <G>.

I agree that new guns ought to work with factory ammo. That said, I don't have any factory ammo I care to shoot. It just isn't reliable or accurate enough to suit me - but that's another subject.

It is also true that 20 to 30 years ago guns seemed to be more reliable when new. A friend has a new Kimber that has been back to the factory twice and still won't go five rounds without a failure. I'm dying to get out to the range with him. I WANT to fix it.

My Kimbers are all 12 years old and older and have only had wear-related malfunctions. But, I hear a lot of complaints about the newer ones. I want to see if it is parts or workmanship that is causing the problems.

Anyway, if I don't have a gun to work on I feel compelled to go out and find one. I really enjoy fixing a problem gun. I takes my mind off the work world.

I have another project going on right now. It's a 1917 S&W revolver in .45ACP. I've nearly completed a Fitzgerald with rounded butt job on it.

If you are in the business I can see how it would not be fun. I never enjoyed dealing with yo-yos who ran into a brick wall and wanted their vehicle fixed on warranty because the vehicle "should have held up."

Even here I read posts from guys who "have more than 500 rounds through the gun and haven't had to clean it yet."

Anyway, I really enjoy a gun that doesn't work. It gives me an opportunity to get away from worrying about stories, photos, deadlines, editing, feeding kids, feeding horses, feeding goats, cleaning up after same and making sure the bills are paid and the truck is tuned and the oil changed.

Maybe I need to go fishing more often...

 

[Tom Fury]

+1 loop; a disappointment or a challenge depends on the mindset.
There is no guarantee against disappointment; raising ones' expectations won't change that.
Ya have to learn to love it.
Cheers, TF

 

[Double Naught Spy]

After participating in 5 or 6 1000 round matches, one of which I hosted, I can honestly say that very few guns have much history of being malfunction-free guns. Of course, it comes do to what is or isn't a malfunction of the gun. Many shooters rationalize away problems, blaming springs, mags, ammo, the shooter, etc., anything but the gun itself.

I prefer a gun to be as best running as is possible, but I don't have any that are malfunction free that I have shot more than a few hundred rounds.

In my experience, those people with extremely good running guns are often the people least able to deal with malfunctions. It is fun to see a guy with a "perfect" gun suffer his first malfunction and then watch him jack with it, trying to clear the malf in order to finish a COF at a match or in a class.

 

[freebird60]

If I had 1/1000th the knowledge some of the people here had about firearms it wouldn't be a problem.

 

[MMCSRET]

Ok, Sure it was used but when he assured me it had never been fired after dark or carried fast over rough terrain, I bought it!

 

[fastbolt]

Well, I can see why you enjoy it now, loop. It's a hobby and form of stress relief.

I'm sure that my ideas of stress relief and hobbies would be boring, tedious or lacking in pleasure for someone else ...

In my experience, those people with extremely good running guns are often the people least able to deal with malfunctions. It is fun to see a guy with a "perfect" gun suffer his first malfunction and then watch him jack with it, trying to clear the malf in order to finish a COF at a match or in a class.

Oh yeah. Too many folks seem to be surprised and stymied when they encounter a functioning issue. Granted, many of the apparent causes are often related to some sort of neglected maintenance, or a worn, damaged or out-of-spec part, some ammunition issue or even they way they're shooting the gun ... but sometimes it is the gun ... and a disappointing number of 'trained' folks are seemingly mentally unprepared to deal with whatever it is that's causing the malfunction it when it occurs.

Any gun can exhibit a problem upon occasion. Granted, while the significant number of functioning issues may often be traced to something maintenance, ammunition or shooter-related, sometimes it's the gun itself. Things can happen. Parts and major components can wear, break or just be on the wrong end of the normal tolerance range when it comes to specification and/or materials manufacture and simply cause problems.

If you don't expect it to happen you may be fooling yourself.

I can think of a shooting situation where an officer's well-respected make of polymer-framed .45 pistol malfunctioned. Fortunately for him, another cop was present who was able to engage the armed suspect while the officer manipulated his malfunctioning weapon to get it back in the fight. Last I heard a lab had duplicated the functioning problem. Hopefully, the agency got the firearm manufacturer involved to figure out what happened, why it happened and take appropriate steps to try and prevent it from happening again. (FWIW, I found out this wasn't the first time such a functioning issue had surfaced with that make/model according to the agency.)

I remember being at a training class hosted by another agency several years ago. I was using one of their issued Sig Sauer pistols converted for use with Simunition marking cartridges. Naturally, as luck would have it, when it came time for my scenario I found myself sitting in a chair with my back to the wall in a commercial building, in an 'ambush' situation, essentially facing two armed suspects who stopped 'arguing' with each other and opened fire on my partner and I ... and my pistol double-fed on the first shot. I threw myself to the floor and cleared my pistol while rolling on the floor under a table and got back into the fight, ending it. Afterward, I remember thinking I was glad I'd spent time studying the causes and corrections of malfunctions as an instructor & armorer.

Hey, but that was a "Sim-marking cartridge" gun, right? Not a "real gun". Really? Think a 'regular' Sig Sauer (or any other service pistol) can't malfunction? Willing to bet your life? I remember a range session where a pair of NIB T&E P226 & P220 pistols both exhibited a single feeding stoppage in the hands of two competent firearms instructors during the same range session. I can pick other respected name brands and come up with either a witnessed event where a gun went down on the firing line when I was either working or nearby, or else another armorer had it happen when they were working and told me about it.

Things can happen.

Equipment can experience problems.

It pays to properly maintain your equipment.

But I also like to prepare for the unexpected visit by Murphy.

 

[Blakenzy]

bringing a delinquent firearm into line

LOL. I find that mental image amusing.

I get where you are coming from Loop, repairing things that don't work bring satisfaction to all humans. It's what drives mankind to progress. But new guns should work as new guns. Period. Else they should be sold as "fix-me-up" kits at a significant discount price.

 

[jocko]

I'm just gettin old

I guess I am just getting old, or to old for some of this defense stuff. I am going on 65, in good health. I want a gun that I FEEL will go bang every time. I will take great care of it, I will keep it clean, I will shoot it like I stole it. I own a Kahr PM9 with 12,500 flawless rounds through it. I am not going to practice rolling on the floor or hiding under a table while trying to clear this jammed gun, if that so happens. That is why I try to own an excellent well proven to me handgun, so that those scenarios don't show up. I am not a paranoid carrier either. I do carry 24/7 and have carried for over 45 years, never to have to pull it either. I just read so much (and don't get me wrong here either, it's OK if that is what YOU want) of guys carrying a back up to a back up, two or 3 magazines. multiple knives. All good and well if THAT IS THE WAY YOU WANT TO LIVE. I have seen the lite at the end of the tunnel, fought cancer big time ( a battle no gun can help prevent). I don't want to have to dress to carry either. I want to live my life unmolested but if need be, I am carrying and with no barriers in front of me or you, I will defend myself to the best of my ability, but I am not going to train rolling on the ground trying to clear my weapon. I hope you get my point here. Those that can do, will do.

 

[TimboKhan]

I could name a dozen guns that malfunctioned when I first got them and now are reliable enough to use as carry guns. It just took time and in some cases, a little bit of money to make them 100 percent.

Odd. I literally can't think of a single gun that I have ever owned that didn't work like a champ right out of the box. A few had gotten bad after shooting for awhile, but they all worked good right out of the box.

That being said, if an auto is acting up in the first 500 rounds or so, it would hardly be cause for alarm for me. Past that, it's a problem, but most autos benefit from a break-in period.

 

[fastbolt]

I am not going to practice rolling on the floor or hiding under a table while trying to clear this jammed gun, if that so happens.

Me neither. My 'let's practice rolling around on the floor' days are in the past. I save that sort of thing for when (and if) it's actually required ... what are the chances? ... or when I have to demonstrate it for the occasional class, like a firearm's instructor update class (Not my favorite thing, FWIW) .

I don't practice such things for normal training & practice. Kneeling on soft surfaces is about the limit for my common training & practice.

Granted, I did develop the foundation for 'ground work' earlier in my practice of various arts - admittedly that sort of practice was more common in my younger days in some of those arts - but apparently those skills are still somewhat on tap for situations in which my mind perceives the necessity. Perhaps the rest of my arts training/pursuit still 'indexes' those things. Dunno.

Training and ingrained reflex took hold in my Simunition/marking cartridge scenario. Incoming rounds have the right of way ... and looking back upon the situation it appeared my conscious "hey, would you look at that" mind didn't take the time to distinguish the difference between muzzles pointed my direction only firing marking cartridges, versus 'live' cartridges, and I found myself diving and rolling around on the floor.

Recognizing and resolving the double-feed malfunction seemed to have been a separate, but simultaneous, reaction to the dynamics of the situation. I wanted that gun up and shooting NOW. I wish I could say each step of my response was reasoned and deliberate at the time, but I don't remember it that way. Instead, I found myself experiencing the interesting sensation of having part of my conscious mind 'observing' the actions being taken by myself, and another part of my mind, seemingly independent of my 'what should I be doing?' consciousness, actively engaged in immediate problem-solving and action. In that situation those parts of my mind didn't seem to get in one another's way ...

I can only hope that such training habits and skills will surface and successfully engage if actually necessary somewhere else someday.

But in the meantime I won't be rolling around on the floor practicing malfunction clearance and shooting.

However, that doesn't mean I won't continue to study and resolve functioning issues reported to me, and which I've personally observed occurring or experienced, in various weapons. Apparently that sort of knowledge and manipulation skill may have some use at some point ... even if only while rolling around on the floor trying to avoid being shot by marking cartridges, wondering how I'd ended up in that situation in the first place.

That is why I try to own an excellent well proven to me handgun, so that those scenarios don't show up.

Ditto. That's my constant hope, as well. However, watching a lot of folks on the firing line for both LE and CCW COF's ... well, let's just say that sometimes it appears the best of hopes and intentions may not exactly pan out in the manner wished.

For myself, I understand the rest of the point you're making. I certainly don't disagree with your thoughts on any particular issue, either. I don't commonly carry enough ammunition to sustain a 'fire fight', nor have I carried a secondary/backup weapon in my line of work for a number of years. I may have found myself carrying a pair of J-frames upon infrequent occasion, or traveling with a pair of dissimilar weapons (for different perceived needs which I anticipated occurring during my travel), but even those are isolated, infrequent events.

I prefer comfort when it comes to my manner of dress, even when armed, in both my plainclothes duties as well as on my own time. Particularly on my own time. There are even times and circumstances when I won't be armed, much to the apparent chagrin of other folks who post in these types of forums. Some of the situations in which I choose to not carry a firearm as an off-duty weapon I believe make excellent sense, for me, and some of them are simply personal choices which suit my desires at the time.

I won't tell other folks how to live in that respect, and have very little concern over how others may feel about my choices.

And it's not just because I'm becoming a bit cranky because of my age, either.

Salute.

 

[makarovnik]

If it's anything more than a burr that needs to be filed off I send it to the factory. If I don't like it when it comes back it gets sold. I will not tolerate a gun that malfunctions.

That's why I sold my Thompson 1911A1 but kept my Bryco .380. The Thompson was a POS but the Bryco shoots right where I point and only jammed once in 500 rounds because it was almost bone dry from sitting stored away. Two drops of oil and it was back up and running perfectly.

 

[varoadking]

I have actually sold guns that shot so well after I did some tinkering that they became boring...specifically a BHP and a CZ PCR.