Anyone else have 2nd thoughts about the Lee FCD?

[Peter M. Eick]

I used to think the lee factory crimp die was the nicest thing since sliced bread. Now I am having second thoughts about using it and I was curious if others have the same ideas or am I on a tangent.

My concept is the FCD just is hiding other reloading problems and issues.

I used to use it all the time in 38 special and 357mag, but I decided to try a redding profile crimp die (thanks Weshoot2 for the suggestion) and pulled the FCD out and the profile crimp does a better job and the press is smoother to operate with starline brass and lasercast bullets. Basically the FCD was swageing the bullet and the brass at the start of entry into the die.

On my 10mm's, I got rid of my glock barrel and put in a better aftermarket one. Now my brass is not so buldged so the fcd is really not doing much of anything.

Today I was loading 45 acp with starline brass, and lasercast 200 grn SWC's. The FCD was swaging the brass and bullet as it entered the die because the die is to small of the brass and the bullet to fit even though it will fit in the chamber check die. Basically I think I was killing my potential accuracy by moveing the lead in the bullet around. You can actually see the lube groove impressed in the brass.

So I have started to think that the FCD is not the right die to use in ALL cases, I have sort of swung around to thinking it should only be used when it is needed like for "glocked" brass in the 40.

Your thoughts, comments or opinions?

 

[P95Carry]

Peter .... leaving aside the current effects on our thinking, brought about by THIS THREAD ......I have in fact been quite happy with my FCD's ... and have a good many.

Currently I use IIRC .. .357, 44, 454, 223, 308, 45, 45-70 ... probably a few others. I don't shoot to bench rest standards and have never really done very strict comparisons but .. I do feel there has to be a measure of improved consistency.

Certainly ... bullet hold in hot loaded pistol rounds seems to be pretty reliable ... on jackets particularly but ... pretty good too on cast.

I have not tried a Redding so .. cannot make a comparison there.

 

[DBR]

Peter M. Eick:
I agree with your thinking having reached the same conclusions myself. If you need the Lee FCD something else is wrong and there are much better crimp dies out there.

 

[stans]

Well, I have wondered about the effects of swaging the bullet after seating. I don't know if anybody has done any side by side testing, but it would be an interesting experiment.

 

[P95Carry]

If you need the Lee FCD something else is wrong

DBR . less a case of ''need'' IMO ... more the fact that the crimp achieved at bullet seating stage is unlikely to be as consistent. I'd imagine that could be the case with any dies.

I had not been aware of any actual ''swaging'' effects ... the collet operates, where set .. around the case mouth ... maybe I am missing something!

 

[Cortland]

I had not been aware of any actual ''swaging'' effects ... the collet operates, where set .. around the case mouth ... maybe I am missing something!

There are two completely different Lee factory crimp dies. There's the rifle FC dies (what you describe), and the pistol FC dies, which are basically taper crimp dies with an oversized carbide sizer ring.

I use the rifle FC dies on a few calibers and like them. I, too, have stopped using the pistol FC dies. If the sizer on the pistol FC die actually does any sizing, you've got a situation where the case is being resized AND the lead bullet is being resized (swaged). The problem is that brass springs back, but lead doesn't.

To see an exagerated case of this phenomenon, remove the decapping stem from a standard carbide sizing die. Run a loaded round through it. The bullet is now loose since even though both brass and lead were sized down, the brass sprung back.

For my pistol loads, I now use a Hornady crimp die (the kind with the alignment sleeve) to seat only, and a Hornady taper crimp die.

 

[Jim Watson]

It is a case of picking the lesser of two evils.

If you load commercial cast bullets in mixed pistol brass, you are highly likely to get a sizeable percentage of loaded rounds that will not chamber freely. The CFC will iron them out. Are you getting bullet distortion and giving up some accuracy? Probably, but you are definitely gaining reliability. I use a CFC for bulk cast bullet .45 and 9mm.

If you load jacketed bullets, they are a bit smaller than the usual cast and will seat, taper crimp, and chamber freely. Usually. I use a plain taper crimp to load jacketed bullets and seldom (but not never) have a failure to gauge.

If you load jacketed or handcast bullets in the same lot of brass for competitive target shooting (bullseye) I think you should definitely get everything matched up so as to not need a CFC and not very much conventional taper crimp.

 

[HSMITH]

I've shot 30K+ cast bullets, many of them unsized, in the last year. I have had less than 25 fail to chamber. I do not use the FCD, as I agree that it is just covering up problems. I have had my internet fanny kicked in on some boards for bringing up the same points you did Peter. Glocktalk is among the worst for having rabid FCD fans.

If you NEED the FCD something is wrong.

 

[Rockstar]

You can find some more rabid FCD fans on the 1911 forum.

 

[Delmar]

It's been my experience that my handloads with LSWC's are a bit more consistent when I use the seating die to seat only on the first pass and then crimp on the last stage with the same die. I was flaring the case mouth too much, and it distorted the case when I tried to seat and crimp at the same time. The jacketed bullets I load seem to work a bit better too using a two step method. Works better from an accuracy standpoint than using the taper crimp die.

 

[wingman]

I use the fcd on many handloads without any effect on accuracy. Seating
and crimping in different operations I believe is the best answer no matter
what dies you use.

 

[Bronson7]

I've stopped using it because I also believe it masks a fault in the reloading process. I'm not saying I'm absolutely correct but never the less, it's something to think about. Here are my concerns ( semi-auto loads):

1. bullet deformation-when you post size, that lead has to be going somewhere.
2. masks a problem with the re-loading process.
3. reduced neck tension- I'm thinking that if the spring back of brass is more than that of lead, which I'm pretty sure it is, then I can see where it would reduce the neck tension. I don't know if this could contribute to set-back or not.

Not using it has caused absolutey no feed reliablity issues for me and infact has really smoothed out my press. When loading cast with the LFCD, It was a pretty jerky operation.

Many folks love it but I'm not one of them and I'll admit I could be wrong but my common sense is telling me otherwise. Just think about it. Many years ago when I was reloading, no one ever heard of it and we all got along just fine without it if we were paying stict attention to our process.

Bronson7

 

[JNewell]

The catalog blurb for the FCD pistol dies makes it pretty clear that this is, in effect, a post-sizing sizing intended to absolutely eliminate feeding issues, so I'm not surprised by the results with pistol ammo.

 

[swifter]

Well, I was having fits with accuracy in a TC carbine, so I tried a FCD out of desperation... Nothing else had worked, and the FCD didn't, either:banghead: thing went on cheerfully scattering 5 shots into an approximate 2.5"X1.5" oval at best. A rechamber finally fixed the cursed thing.
I don't crimp rifle, generally, use a Profile crimp on revolver rounds, and a taper crimp on .45ACP.

FWIW...

Tom

 

[Poodleshooter]

I primarily use it in.45ACP lead bullet plinking loads for a Glock 30. All I know is that several different Star and NBC lead bullets would not fully chamber in my pistol using a standard taper crimp, even though the brass was under maximum length and the bullets were seated well within the maximum OAL for the cartridge.
With the Lee FCD they function, even using multiple brands of brass in the same loading sessions.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Still using the FCD I loaded 230 grn Rem FMJ's into Starline brass. Here the FCD did not touch the case till the very bottom to size just a hair deeper then the RCBS die did at the top.

My conclusion, it is brass, bullet dependent. In the future if it does not size the bullet I will continue to use it. Otherwise, it is out of the rotation.

Thanks for the comments.

 

[444]

Once upon a time, I was having problems loading .45 ACP. It seemed that some of them chambered fine, others didn't. At the time, I had been handloading for about 10 years. I didn't understand what could be the problem. Today, I have been reloading for over 20 years and I still don't understand what the problem was. So, I bought a Lee Factory Crimp Die and the problem disappeared because all my loaded ammo was sized a final time and I presume was all very close and consistant in diameter.
This is the classic case of "masking" another problem in the reloading process.
And I say, SO WHAT ?
Is the goal here to solvethe problem or is it to produce reliable ammo ?
Over the years I wondered what my problem had been. I posted a couple times on various boards and got absolutely no help what so ever. I got answers like "You must be doing something wrong" "You don't have your dies adjusted right" "Read the instructions that came with your dies". These one sentence replies are useless and a waste of bandwidth. So, dispite the internet experts, I continued to turn out good ammo that went bang every time and was plenty accurate enough for the matches I shoot.

Today, I don't use Lee Factory Crimp dies in every caliber like I did at one time. I moved on to several sets of Dillon dies when I got my Dillon progresives and in a few cases bought sets of Redding dies which included the profile crimp die.
I don't have anything against Lee Factory Crimp dies and don't see the issues brought up in this thread as negatives.

 

[Ardent]

I have to chime in too, it works for me. I was having failures to feed in my Kimber with the unramped barrel and started using the LFC and they all feed like factory fresh now. It also has the nice side effect of letting me load lighter target rounds as they now take less force to chamber. I have not noticed any decrease in accuracy, so it is all thumbs up here.

Ardent

 

[BluesBear]

Havng loaded well over 3,000,000 rounds of handgun ammunition I just can't see any reason for the Lee FCD.
I have tried very hard to imagine why it would be needed but just can't.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

And I was so proud today that I had loaded nearly 300,000 rnds in my lifetime. GEEEZZZZEEE you put me to shame by an order of magnitude.

Actually today I loaded up my 150,000 rnd (documented) in my pro2000 and I was sort of estimating the rest.

3e6 rounds. I am impressed!

 

[BluesBear]

Believe me, when you do it 40-50 hours per week, every week, for a living, the fun goes out of it REEEEEAAALY fast!

After I shut down the business, I went for about five years without loading a single round. I haven't even set my press up in almost a year now. Reloading is just now starting to appeal to me again.

All I can say is that I wish Dillon had been around back then.
Those in-line progressive presses I had back then weren't nearly as easy to use, nor were they as consistent.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Blues,

I just try to do 200 to 300 a night, nearly every night. Like today, 200 rnds of 10mm auto, 180 Rem JHP's in Fed brass, cci300 primers, 10.5 grns AA7. Sounds like I just logged in the load doesn't it......

I can understand how making it a business would eliminate the fun real quick.