anyone ever have to intervene in a situation like this?

[qwert65]

Let me start by saying this happened on St. Kitts an island in the caribean where police response is very variable guns are banned but somewhat availible(illegally)

I had a rough week at the clinic including a 4 hr procedure on a bitch where her uterine artery ruptured yesterday. Leaving me at the clinic till 10 pm. I decided to go out to dinner tonite to relax with a friend of mine(female). We enjoyed our meal and were on our dessert when a fight broke out btw the owner of the establishment and some shady dude The owner(in his 60s) was trying to throw out this guy who kept bothering the waitresses. The resteraunt is on the 2nd floor with stairs from the ground. I just watched him push this guy to the door.
When they got to the stairs they started wrestling on the stairs ( about 40 steps up) At this point the owners daughter and an older customer rush to the top of the stairs. Me (being from NJ ) told my friend to chill and just observed. Now the scruffy guy got the better hand of the owner and was choking him.
At this point my friend said some one needs to help him and got up. Now I'm involved so I go over there, shift my pocketknife to my left palm push Laurie(my friend) and the old guy( both still just watching) out of the way and start down the stairs. The guy sees me and starts to get off the owner who suddenly pulls a gun.

Now, it just got a little weird so I grab Laurie and take her back inside. We hear two pops which to be honest didnt sound like gunshots they sounded like blanks but whatever. I wait a bit then decide to leave ( Note the only way to get out is down the stairs) So off we go I only saw the owner with his pistol who apologized for the fracas and we went home.

My question is if that guy had kept choking the owner whats the best way to intervene? I was afraid to kick him down the stairs bc the owner might have gone with him- same for me not getting into a wrestling match on a flight of stairs. I had decided at that point that if I had to intervene the safest thing would have been to just kill him(carotid) but of course that seems excessive I am glad I didn't have to do anything. Is there a better way to approach this?

Note this is a 3rd world country I would not have the same legal constraints as in the states(It's pretty loose over here)

thx for any constructive critcisms

 

[ILikeLead]

"including a 4 hr procedure on a bitch where her uterine artery ruptured yesterday."

First, I hope you're a veterenarian and not an OB-GYN...



As for the situation, I dunno. I would have to be there to decide. First I would likely not intervene until I was sure that my companions were out of harms way.

 

[smithmax]

Was there any way to pull/push them back through the doorway, and then do whatever else you need to do.

 

[Oyeboten]

Severing the Carotid still invites a potentially inconvenient or embarassing (and messy) delay, before the person is sufficiently depleted of Cerebrial Oxygen to become helpless...(assuming the Knife is in fact sharp enough to do so instanly without undue 'sawing' ).


And too, it is liable to eventuate in fatality (as you know...)


Assuming a fairly robust candidate, my own thought, is more along the lines of a stout whallop to the Spine where it enjoys relatively non-padded promitory aspect, mid-way along the rear of the Neck, via, a firm open hand 'chop' using the poor-man's 'karate' emulation, or, a sort of 'Hammer' blow, using the padded aspect of one's hand when made into a hard fist.


Done halfway right, this will cause immediate unconsiousness, or, at least, definite pro-tem collapse with slow-enough recovery of wobbly ambulation...and probably little worse for wear after.

Done even poorly, it should still be sufficiently stunning to allow advantages in further attentions or mediations.

 

[dacavasi]

Do blanks really sound any different, inside a building, than live rounds???

 

[Oyeboten]

They're 'sharper' sounding...

 

[qwert65]

"including a 4 hr procedure on a bitch where her uterine artery ruptured yesterday."

First, I hope you're a veterenarian and not an OB-GYN...

Yes I am a DVM

 

[qwert65]

Oyeboten, That might work, though thats an awful lot of force moving down when I'm standing on a flight of stairs, a club would be perfect to do that maybe I shoulda looked around for one.
I am aware of how a carotid stick works, I figured that would probably get him off the owner while limiting my danger. My biggest fear was going down the stairs and breaking my neck.

 

[qwert65]

Do blanks really sound any different, inside a building, than live rounds??

In the tropics, most resteruants are not fully enclosed
Also the shots were fired outside with me inside (though again the building is more "open air")

 

[Makotoseven]

was it with his forearm around the guy's neck or a two handed thing? if its two hands and he wont let go of the guy you could either hit and buckle his elbows or kick him in the ribs (especially if he's on the ground).

if someone is choking another person they almost always have their ribs exposed. if you're being choked the foot stomp and rib jab is the way to go (slamming their body into stuff is helpful too). if you're going to help someone being choked jab him as hard as you can in the ribs with your elbow. there's a lot of power and not much surface area there.

i dont see a need for a knife in this situation unless your out numbered. that could just get you stabbed if you slip up. plus, blood is really messy. i'd rather break a rib or two on a guy than have his life juice on me.

 

[Oyeboten]

qwert65,



Oh...'Stairs'...yes, pretty dicey...

Even though I had read your opening post, somehow I thought they were on a flat landing or other...oooops...


A good whallop to the Kidneys is pretty stunning/debiliating also, though of course can do some harm too.


A chop to the side of the Neck is also very good....and somehow I'd forgotton any mention of that...and can produce instant unconscuousness or at least a stunned daze of some duration.

 

[coloradokevin]

We hear two pops which to be honest didnt sound like gunshots they sounded like blanks but whatever.

Sounds like you may have experienced some auditory exclusion, which is a commonly known phenomenon that people deal with in critical incidents. It isn't unlike the tunnel vision that also often occurs in these incidents (think of it as the tunnel vision for you ears).

 

[coloradokevin]

Also, there are so many variables in this incident that it is really hard for me to play Monday morning quarterback on these deals. Obviously it is impossible for you to completely articulate all of the subtle cues you saw between the two parties that were fighting, and only you can visualize the layout of the place where they were fighting. Moreover, I'm not sure what kind of hand-to-hand combat training/experience you have, and that sort of stuff obviously can't be taught through a web forum...

In short, your approach would likely be far different if you are an experienced MMA fighter than it would be if you are not physically prepared or trained for an all-out bar fight!

But, lacking any other more suitable options, I wonder if there were any fire extinguishers nearby? I've personally known of more than one incident where someone has used a fire extinguisher blast as an improvised less-lethal in the past, and it might have been effective in getting the attacker to back off of the bar owner, even if only momentarily. Moreoever, if that technique failed, you'd still be in possession of a decent impact weapon! It probably won't work as well as the pepper foggers that we like to use to break up large fights, but I'd bet that it would be better than nothing, and would certainly get the attackers attention!

From what you described I'm not so sure that stabbing the attacker would have been the best bet at that point in time, but obviously this depends on your perception of how serious the attacker was at chocking the bar tender, and whether or not you thought his life was in imminent danger.

 

[danbrew]

I guess I'd be most concerned about the aftermath of becoming involved in a country where the legal constraints are looser - as in it could work for you or against you. Sure would hate to be the rich foreign doctor a local judge decides to use to make an example...

 

[qwert65]

From what you described I'm not so sure that stabbing the attacker would have been the best bet at that point in time, but obviously this depends on your perception of how serious the attacker was at chocking the bar tender, and whether or not you thought his life was in imminent danger.
_______________

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I don't think stabbing him would of been the best move, hence the reason for this thread.

excellent point about body condition. The owner is maybe 5'9, 50s or 60s looks like hes in reasonable shape. The attacker was taller at least 6' but very skinny.

Myself, I am 5'4" 182lbs. I am not as fat as that sounds but I am 25lbs overweight(judging from my wt when I was in the pink) I am 27 yrs old and have been in my share of fights growing up and in my "Young adult years" That said I haven't been in a fight in 5 yrs and it's prob been longer if you only count serious scrapes(ie ppl being having to go to the hospital) I don't consider myself a "tough guy" I've hung around enough tough guys to know I'm not one, but I usually held my own.
That said I'm out of shape vet school takes a toll on that I do still wrestle cows, donkeys, pigs, etc so I wouldn't say "couch potato"
I like the fire extingusher idea if I go back there in the next 30 days or so(after that I'm back in the USA) I'll see if they have one outta curiosty. That would allow me to create distance.
My reason for posing this ques. was that I found myself unsure of the best option, obvisouly there is no "one" option but I found it odd afterwards that my best plan( read safest for me) involved killing him and figured those more expeirenced might have some ideas. I'll say again for me the biggest variable was that it was happening in a stairway and I was afraid that getting into a grapple could break my neck.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Restaurant...

Were there pepper shakers on the tables? Or was this the sort of place where a waiter has to show up with a giant pepper grinder?

I'm thinking a nice generous handful of ground black pepper in the assailant's face (if it was available) might change his attitude, while offering you a couple of feet of separation.

lpl

 

[qwert65]

there were pepper shakers, How do I throw pepper in the face of a guy looking down(read away from me). I just wanted him to stop choking the guy

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

take a couple shakers or a nice glass ashtray wrap em in a cloth napkin and tap him in a caring and sensitive way upside his head. if hes still concious he will try to look at you then throw the pepper or salt they both burn like heck.

 

[Avenger29]

Rather than engaging with a pocketknife, I'd rather engage using a sufficient "found weapon" and beat the BG over the head. Especially because you weren't the one being attacked, so you can take a second to evaluate, think, and choose what's your best tool for the job.

I'd hate to pull a knife on somebody. Knifefights are nasty, and I'd rather just clobber the BG over the head given the option.

 

[BigGuy52]

I would only use a knife as a last ditch defense weapon.

In this scenario, how about a very hard kick to the BG's outer knee? If you could 'pop' the kneecap that is extremely painful and would inhibit the will to continue a fight.

 

[robphillips]

I THINK YOU SHOULD HAVE NEUTERED HIM. Just kidding...... well maybe. You already had the knife.

 

[TheMeager]

Rear Naked Choke.

By surprising him with a jerk and pulling his back into your chest, you're able to lower your own back onto the stairs. Create a low center of balance, and use your legs to brace yourself instead of immediately locking in inside his thighs (as pictured). From there, work your way down the stairs as he struggles. Assuming they're narrow steps, as long as you keep your weight back, you'll probably be able to restrain him or work your way down the steps with some ease.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

that mma works better when the other guy is constrained by some limited rules . otherwise him gouging your eye out breaks your concentration and your blood makes em slippery hard to hold on to. club em and move on

chair table fire extinguisher anything heavy will do. heck i used a pair of ice skates to great effect once swung em by their laces

 

[TheMeager]

The Rear Naked Choke is an extremely effective carotid choke that, if properly applied, can knock an opponent out in seconds.

Eye gouging is not a realistic response to this move.

 

[21bubba]

Not realistic? Maybe in your world, in mine there is no referee or octigon or pentagon or any other kind of gon.