Anyone reload .410? Fiocchi hulls?

[desmobob]

I know these hulls have a bad reputation, but components aren't exactly plentiful and I was able to get the Fiocchi hulls, primed. I'm going to keep my WinAAHS hulls stashed until the .410 shortage eases up, if it ever does.

They load OK, but I'm getting these weird "smiles" on the mouths. The mouths of the shot shells look like a pair of lips. Where the "lips" are, the crimp and crimp punch settings look good. But "the corners of the mouth are lower than the rest of the hull so they crimp punch doesn't even touch them.

Hard to explain... I hope it shows in the photos.



I'm loading on a MEC 600 Jr. that is quite old. I took off the crimp starter and crimp dies and checked them out. Everything is clean and solid.

Any ideas?

 

[12Bravo20]

Did you skip the new hulls first? This will help with getting a proper crimp.

Other things to check is to make sure to readjust the crimp starter and crimping station. I had to readjust those when going from 3" Winchester hulls and 3" Remington hulls to 3" Cheddite hulls. I am willing to bet that your problems will go away once you readjust the crimp starter and crimping station. If not, then look at getting a skiver and/or brass crimp starter.

Ballistic Products sells a skiver tool: https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Power-Hull-Skiver-20ga-410/productinfo/0740012/

Ballistic Products also sells a solid brass crimp starter for use on new hulls which can help too. https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Super-Crown-Crimper-Small-Bore-8-Pt/productinfo/0740009/

 

[desmobob]

Thanks for you response.

The hulls were skived properly. There is no adjustment on the pre-crimp, although I did consider shimming it down a bit by adding a washer. My machine has the old style non-rotating steel pre-crimp die, not the newer, plastic Spindex type. This steel pre-crimp die is pretty aggressive, although not as aggressive as that brass BP version looks to be!

I tried all the usual adjustments on the cam position and crimp punch. These adjustments had all the usual effects, but the strange "corners of the mouth" appeared along with the crimps. I will go back and try dropping the pre-crimp a bit by adding a washer.

Edit to add: I sent the question and photos to MEC. I'll post any suggestions I get from them.

 

[12Bravo20]

I am interested in what MEC has to say.

I bought my 600Jr in 1996. I found that even though the Cheddite hulls are very similar to Federal hulls and use the same reloading data, I still had to readjust everything on my press. And it was a bit of trial and error until I got the crimp starter and crimping station adjusted. I did not get the smiley like you. Some of the crimps didn't want to stay flat on me. I figured it was due to the hulls being crimped for the first time., which could be the case for you too.

 

[desmobob]

MEC said this is going to be very common with new hulls that have no crimp memory, and maybe I could look at a different crimp starter (no mention of any in particular). I may try one of BP's sharp brass starters like you mentioned.

 

[mcb]

I never got a good folded crimp with Fiocchi. My favorite was always the relatively new Winchester HS hulls. I did have good luck roll crimping Fiocchi.

 

[12Bravo20]

Winchester AA, Remington Premier STS, and Remington Nitro were my goto hulls when I was reloading 2 1/2" shells. I didn't have much luck with Federal 2 1/2" hulls.

For the longest time I always used Remington Express and Winchester Super X hulls for my 3" hunting loads. The 3" Cheddite hulls have been doing fine for my #7 1/2 shot hunting loads and my 000 buckshot loads. I will have to wait and see if the Cheddite hulls last as long as the Remington or Winchester hulls.

 

[Appalachiannative]

I reload those exact hulls on my old 600jr without that problem but I find I have plenty of other problems that don't occur everytime. The whole process is kinda finicky.I also have the new style plastic dies on there though so I'd assume that's why my experience is different. Ill take pictures of some of my crimps when I get home tonight

 

[wild willy]

I’m new to loading 410 but have loaded other gauges for 45 years. I was having some issues but found posted somewhere that you have to precrimp 410 more than other gauges that helped me a lot.If you look at 410 factory shells some of them aren’t really that nice I don’t think you can get 410 crimps as nice as larger gauges at least not always

 

[desmobob]

I’m new to loading 410 but have loaded other gauges for 45 years. I was having some issues but found posted somewhere that you have to precrimp 410 more than other gauges that helped me a lot.If you look at 410 factory shells some of them aren’t really that nice I don’t think you can get 410 crimps as nice as larger gauges at least not always

That seems to be the case with the Fiocchi hulls and I can see how it would be true with all .410 hulls. When loading other gauges, the popular hint to pre-crimping is that you want the mouth of the hull to be closed down to about the diameter of a pencil. Well heck... the .410 hull mouth is that size before the pre-crimp die touches it!

I dropped my pre-crimp die by shimming it with a washer (I have a pre-1982 600 Jr.) and that helped a lot. I'm happy with them. I test-fired a handful of them today and then reloaded them. They reloaded better after that first firing.

I'm happy.

 

[12Bravo20]

It is usually the initial crimp on brand new hulls that can cause problems. Once they are crimped and fired then you should be fine. I am glad that you were able to shim the crimp starter to get good results.

 

[Appalachiannative]

this is the main problem I have as you can see from this handful I get one of these twisted crimps at least every 7 or 8 rounds

 

[12Bravo20]

View attachment 1141666this is the main problem I have as you can see from this handful I get one of these twisted crimps at least every 7 or 8 rounds

That is where the brass crimp starter from Ballistic Products would help when loading brand new hulls. Even tho old style steal crimp starter found on older 600Jr presses are better than the plastic crimp starter when it comes to new hulls that have never been crimped.

 

[desmobob]

I get one of these twisted crimps at least every 7 or 8 rounds

I think when you're getting beautiful crimps and you suddenly get a swirly, it's because the hull was long. I had that issue with early Winchester AA .410 hulls that seemed to have two different lengths in every batch I reloaded.

 

[desmobob]

It is usually the initial crimp on brand new hulls that can cause problems. Once they are crimped and fired then you should be fine. I am glad that you were able to shim the crimp starter to get good results.

Thanks. And thanks for your suggestions and help. You were right on the money about adjusting the pre-crimp.

 

[12Bravo20]

I'm glad that I could help.

 

[Appalachiannative]

I think when you're getting beautiful crimps and you suddenly get a swirly, it's because the hull was long. I had that issue with early Winchester AA .410 hulls that seemed to have two different lengths in every batch I reloaded.

Maybe I initially blamed the new fangled dies. I've only been reloading for a few years and until now I've only used old MEC presses with the old style dies. I just don't care for things being plastic that used to be metal

 

[MNRifleman]

Great thread. I recently picked up a like new .410 Wingmaster w/ vent rib. Wanted to add a bit more frustration to skeet…lol. I’ve loaded on Mec presses for decades for 12 and 20 and am now looking to add a .410 press. I live about 15 minutes from BPI, so that’s where most of my shotgun stuff comes from. I’m leaning towards 3” hulls for everything, any recommendations for Cheddite vs Fiocchi? (BPI currently out of both…..JUST missed the Cheddite’s)…..

 

[12Bravo20]

I have a bunch of 3" Cheddite 410 hulls and other than possible issues with crimps on new hulls, they have been fine. And since they came already primed with Cheddite primers, I will stick with those primers. Cheddite and Fiocchi primers are both bigger than American 209 primers.

@MNRifleman one thing to remember is that any sanctioned/official skeet competition will require the use of 2 1/2" 410 skeet loads only. Three in shells are fine for skeet if you are not competing. I haven't shot skeet in quite some time so I stick with reloading 3" hulls for hunting and SD buckshot loads.

 

[MNRifleman]

I have a bunch of 3" Cheddite 410 hulls and other than possible issues with crimps on new hulls, they have been fine. And since they came already primed with Cheddite primers, I will stick with those primers. Cheddite and Fiocchi primers are both bigger than American 209 primers.

@MNRifleman one thing to remember is that any sanctioned/official skeet competition will require the use of 2 1/2" 410 skeet loads only. Three in shells are fine for skeet if you are not competing. I haven't shot skeet in quite some time so I stick with reloading 3" hulls for hunting and SD buckshot loads.

Thanks for the info ! Not competing in skeet, just a fun league, I’ve shot pistol in USPSA for years, shotgun is just for “fun….although it’s ALL fun, right? I’m completely converted over to Cheddite 209’s, I haven’t seen Winchester 209’s in 3 years. I’m Buy American as much or more than the next guy, but if the French can get primers over here and they’re almost half of what American 209’s are (if you can even find them), then I’m done with American 209’s……sorry for the rant…off my soapbox…..lol. I read a thread a while back about diameters of Cheddite vs American 209’s and I’d always heard what you mentioned about Cheddite’s being a thousandth or two larger, the guy in the thread said that’s apparently no longer the case, he measured a handful of each with a micrometer (not a caliper) and said they were the same size, I did the same thing (with a caliper though) and got same results. These were current production Cheddite 209’s. Interesting, but irrelevant for me because I’m a Cheddite convert…. What powder and wad do you use for 3” .410? Thanks again for the info!

 

[12Bravo20]

You're welcome for the information. I have converted over to using strictly Cheddite primers for the same reasons as you. I do have some that are still 2 thousands of an inch bigger than Federal, Remington, and Winchester 209 primers. Though I haven't had to buy any 209 primers since early 2021.

I am using Claybuster CB5050-410HS wads even though they are meant for 2 1/2" shells. I have been using Hodgdon H110 powder for years now without any issues. I might look into using the BPI MAX 410 one I use up all of the Claybuster wads. The BPI MAX410 wads are specifically made for 3" 410 hulls.

 

[MNRifleman]

Thanks again @12Bravo20. Have you patterned any of your 410 loads?

 

[12Bravo20]

You're welcome. And yes I have patterned my 3" #7 1/2 shot shells and they shoot a good pattern similar to factory Federal or Winchester 3" shells. I don't have any photos of the patterns with bird shot though. My reloads work well in a Mossberg 500E with 26" full choke barrel, H&S single shot with full choke, Mossberg 183K bolt action with C-Lect Choke and my Turkish O/U with full and modified chokes.

I have not used the Fiocchi hulls os I won't comment on load data. The Cheddite 3" hulls use load data for Federal 3" hulls.

 

[desmobob]

Have you patterned any of your 410 loads?

In my experience, patterning .410 loads only serves to introduce doubt and reduce confidence in its ability break clays.

 

[Appalachiannative]

Great thread. I recently picked up a like new .410 Wingmaster w/ vent rib. Wanted to add a bit more frustration to skeet…lol. I’ve loaded on Mec presses for decades for 12 and 20 and am now looking to add a .410 press. I live about 15 minutes from BPI, so that’s where most of my shotgun stuff comes from. I’m leaning towards 3” hulls for everything, any recommendations for Cheddite vs Fiocchi? (BPI currently out of both…..JUST missed the Cheddite’s)…..

I have tried 2 1/2 cheddite and 3 inch fiocchi. 3 inch shells are trickier to get the stack height right but they feed better in my bolt action repeater. If your gun has a 3 inch chamber I recommend the 3 inch fiocchi that are already primed