Anything a lever action can do, a pump or semi-auto can do better" true or false?

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The primary uses these days for most lever guns (the Savage 99 is something of a bridge between traditional and modern) is casual recreational rather than serious hunting.
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Not true at all. Just read American Hunting Rifles by Craig Boddington. It's not a sense of nostalgia that causes people to choose the lever action in certain kinds of hunting. There are many kinds of hunting where the lever is superior, such as thick woods, hunting with dogs, or over bait, not to mention hunting large and dangerous bears in thick cover. With calibers like .348 Winchester and .45-70, they are ideal for grizzlies and moose in thick woods. At those ranges, those calibers are actually far superior to such as the 7mm Remington Magnum or .300 Winchester Magnum, typical American bolt action chamberings.

Speaking of which, didn't this thread start out as a comparison between lever guns and bolt actions? Or am I imagining things? By changing the title half way through the thread, someone has made most of the posts thus far seem off the mark and irrelevant.
 
Speaking of which, didn't this thread start out as a comparison between lever guns and bolt actions? Or am I imagining things? By changing the title half way through the thread, someone has made most of the posts thus far seem off the mark and irrelevant.
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You're not crazy, someone made a similar thread and the mods seemed to merge them without inspecting the difference.

So far the only non-sentimental advantages I see are:
Ambidexterous
Handy
Flat
Fast
Top-off

But in my original post it was "COULD do better" not "can do better"... if we built a bolt to spec in order to beat the lever in these areas is it possible? It seems to me, a bolt gun could be built to be ambidexterous, handy/light- particularly with more freedom to shape the stock or use synthetics (does anyone use synthetics for levers btw?), and flatness- if a premium- could be accomplished with a downwards bolt... and/or a folding bolt (which might lend to ambidexterity). For Fast... it's probable that the bolt can't surpass the lever here, IMO, but it still does alright in the biathlon, no? Top-off, if bolts needed the mechanism I suppose it's not too hard, but isn't easier to just switch mags?
 
Regarding the lever vs. bolt comparison...

Let's not forget the Browning BLR, which has a rotary bolt and box magazine.

Then there was the Winchester Model 88, another rotary bolt, box magazine lever action. Maybe a bit too far ahead for it's time, I'd still grab one if I could find one reasonably...
 
PaladinX13 said:
The mods have changed the intent of the thread from a comparsion of Bolts and Levers to something I wasn't interested in... levers versus pumps/semi.
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Have you PMed a mod yet and asked them to fix it?
 
Been said but:

1. Pump is terrible for a scabbard. Bolt is ok. Lever is better.
2. Lever is better for repeat shots than bolt. Pump has edge here.
3. Lever's carry better. I really like a slim Winchester.
4. Levers are ambidextrious. I'm a lefty so that is nice.
 
As a Mod I don't know why anyone WOULD change the title of your thread.


I grew up hunting with a lever gun and moved to a bolt gun... from a Marlin 336T .30-30 to a Savage 110B .30-06. I'm on my second Savage .30-06. (a 116)

Reasons I switched:

.30-06 has longer range, heavier barrel, easier to load/unload. In Colorado you cannot have a loaded rifle in your truck during hunting season... so at the end of EVERY hunt you unload to get in the truck and head back to camp. At the end of my day (sometimes 3 hunts) my .30-30 bullets would be boogered to heck. A magazine fed (blind or removable) bolt rifle is FAR easier to handle in this. That annoyed me a lot as a kid. Probably didn't affect the bullets' terminal preformance much.

I doubt VERY seriously the .30-30 is down and out.

The reason for the .30-30 (or similar levergun)

Great lightwieght short to medium range rifle that sits well on a horse. Soft shooting for new hunters. Plenty of whallup WITH fast follow up shot capability without taking your eyes off the target (happens a lot with bolt rifles and scopes). Looks good with sixgun. Duke had one. Fits in scabbard behind/in front of bench seat with no bother... no bolt handle sticking out. You can kill large deer and black bear with a 30-30, and while it's 'light' for elk, I've seen it used effectively. Also, to prove it could be done, I killed an antelope with a 30-30 at 150 or so yards.

Bolt gun (w/scope) = precise one shot kill at a distance.
Lever gun w/o scope = fast handling rifle with good power at close range, good speed for follow up shot IF needed.
Laver gun w/scope = darn good 'first rifle'

It's all about personal preference and what you use your rifle for.
 
Cosmo, that's great!

But please tell me that you're not trying to make this a "one size fits all" argument. You've had a Mosin Nagant too long for me to believe you'd gone that route.

Cool bit about taking the African Big 5 with a Marlin .45-70 levergun, broken ankle and all. I thought .45-70 was against the rules for a lot of African dangerous game, because it didn't meet the power floor rules over there, even with Garrett Hammerheads. Rich Lucibella over at TFL got his Cape Buff using a .45-70, and I will get one eventually with my .45-70 Ruger #1 and my 2100fps 405gr Beartooth loads. That'll be after I drop an American Bison with my Sharps Business Rifle and 535gr Creedmoor BP loads.

One thing that really stuck out in the Hippo account at the Vince Lupo website was that the darned Marlin crossbolt safety got in the way. I hate those things, either on Winchesters or Marlins. Hence having a PH with a serious backup gun, I guess, but I wonder if at 10 feet charging distance, would there have been time for the PH to save the day, or would our hero have been a bloody smear on the ground?
 
I also hate the crossbolt safety. I prefer old school leverguns. But that's the fault of the lawyers. It's possible to retrofit back to the old style as well.

I wouldn't suggest a levergun is the ideal firearm for all hunting. It's nowhere near as good as a bolt when you get beyond 200 yards. It's at those ranges that souped up magnums with spitzers can really shine. But I would submit that the bolt offers no real advantage at closer ranges where most game is actually taken. It comes down to personal preference.
 
Bump this thread

Going to buy one of these ... soon ...

.30/30 is enough.
If not, add a .45-70.

If not, then maybe you've forgotten
(or never learned) those stalking skills...?

Anything a pump or semi-auto can do,
a lever can do better.

True.

:evil:
 
Well, you couldn't give me a '94 or Marlin...

...As long as I have my M-141 Rem pump in .35 Rem. I can even use pointed bullets...
 
Personally, I'd take any of my bolt-guns over a lever action any day, but that is a more a personal taste issue than anything else, since the lever offers no advantage to me.
 
Hi Y'All...

Ok, I've stayed out of this one longer than I thought possible.
Though I love Ruger #1s and also wrote an article for Guns Magazine years ago pointing out that a good rifleman/hunter can make a very good showing with a lever, auto, or shucker, I'm going to ride with Gewehr98 on this one.
The BLR and the Winchester 88 were/are probably the "sleeper" rifles of all time. Notice how FEW of either you see on the "used - for sale" racks, and what kind of prices they command. Believe me (and Gewehr98, of course), there is a reason for that.
One of my sons has been fortunate enough to have gotten to do a ton of hunting in South Texas and New Mexico for years. His first rifle was a BLR .243 which he has used for at least 15 years. Thinking I would cement my position as "Greatest Dad in the History of Dads", I recently bought him a shiny new Remington CDL in 7mm/08 as a Christmas present. The Remington is still sitting in the gunsafe :( but he swears he'll get it out and shoot it sometime soon. Probably. :rolleyes:
 
The primary uses these days for most lever guns (the Savage 99 is something of a bridge between traditional and modern) is casual recreational rather than serious hunting. by SaxonPig
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Isn't 99% or better of all hunting recreational? Do you think a hunter less serious because he uses a knife, spear, atlatl, bow, flintlock musket, etc.? I think that at best your reply is ill-worded.

I hunt and eat what I kill in the hunt but my hunting is recreational, there is nothing necessary about it. A wonderful thing indeed. Every different tool I take hunting I use to give me a particular feel or learning experience. For me, life is about learning and I hunt to learn. I have hunted to eat, but I didn't change my equipment. I guess you would say I got more serious because I'd stay out longer (in early and out late) as my time was less valuable than the meat. Still, I could have committed to a second employer and paid for meat that way. So, I still think of my hunting as recreational.
 
The "top off" thing reminds me of a bolt action anomoly that I'm amazed hasn't been brought up yet. The 30-40 Krag sported a mag box that not only allowed topping off but it also offers the tacticool aspect of being one of the most insensitive loading mechanisms I've ever encountered. Seriously you flop open the magazine box and literally drop your cartridges in bullet end downrange, flop the box closed and it'll take care of the rest! The accuracy of modern lever actions could be improved and proof was in the puddin when Doug Turnbull of Turnbull restoration got a 94 Winchester to shoot sub MOA "..time after time". I forget who but someone started a thread a little while ago called the cowboy assault rifle and that one showed significant promise towards the goal of a truly accurate lever action. Although I don't own one, I'd love to get a thuty thuty or a .45-70
 
Anything a lever can do...pump/semi...etc.

Where did all the lever vs bolt come from? Oh well, if you are going to compare, compare fairly. Don't go into .30-30 vs .30-06 vs .357mag etc.

Take one cartridge as a standard, that all actions are made in, and compare. The easiest one that comes to my mind is the .308 Win. You can get levers, pumps and semis, along with the bolt gun.

Savage 99, Winchester 88, and the Browning BLR are all available in .308 Win. Remington 760 series pump rifles are also. And in non military designs, Remington, Winchester, and (I think) Browning have all made semi autos in .308.

Detatchable mags, they all have them. Easy scope mounting? Yep. Benchrest accurate? Nope. Deer hunting accurate? You bet. Fast follow up shots? Yep. Generally mediocre triggers? yes on that one too.

So far, doesn't seem to be alot of difference, so personal preference is the deciding factor. Then there is price and availability. Sadly some of the models mentioned are no longer in current production. So availibility is spotty, they can be had, but you can't count on walking in off the street and finding one on the rack at Shooter's World on any given day.

And then there is price. Unlike some people, I always consider used guns. Usually first. I seldom buy new guns anymore. Once in a while, but mostly used. Sometimes very used. My 40+ years of experience has taught me that used guns are generally pretty good deals. Of course, check them out thoroughly, and obvious abuse, neglect and wear must be taken into consideration, but if the gun is good, usually it is good. And they cost just a wee bit less than new. Only real drawback I ever found was they you don't always get to put the first scratches on them.
 
First off I don't want to kill this thread by saying this because I've really enjoyed reading this one.

There's no knowledgable person that'll tell you a bolt is always better than a lever, or vice versa.

None will argue that a bolt is better in many situations. But if I decide to wander in bear country I can't think of a rifle I'd choose over my 45-70 Marlin guide gun.

Don't underestimate that 45-70 folks... It can and has killed every kind of game on the planet.
 
Bolt-Action Pros:

1) Available in many more calibers.
2) Generally the most accurate.
3) Generally they have stronger actions (easier to handload).

Lever-Action Pros:

1) Rides well in a scabbard.
2) Faster follow-ups.
3) Generally shorter/lighter/handier.
4) Much more ambidextrous.
5) More politically correct appearance.
6) Generally less expensive.
7) More cost-effective.

Pump/Slide-Action Pros:

1) Easier to learn to shoot well if you're used to a shotgun.
2) Faster still follow-ups.

Semiauto Pros:

1) The fastest follow-ups of all.
2) Generally more accurate than a lever/pump.



There are exceptions to all of these.
 
Dr. Rob expresses some of my views in his post #57.

Tools for task. I happen to like bolt guns, like Model 70 in 30-06 and Model 94 in 30-30.

Depends. Simple as that, is just depends on critter, cover, ranges and - it depends.

You folks might of heard of this guy, some may not have read this, great thread, and yes it shares some ideas on rifles.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220362

:)
 
My guide for an extended Alaska Brown Bear hunt (remote island, generally very thick cover) STRONGLY SUGGESTED that we do NOT bring any semi's, would rather not see us with our bolts, but not to imply or infer specifically a particular weapon of choice, he WOULD recommend a lever action with a bore over .40 caliber such as a .405, .444, or an easy to get .450 Marlin. His personal gun is WW Marlin.

In his 30+ years of guiding the islands for the early spring hunt, he has experienced too many semi's freez'n up. Humid, cool days with blistering freezing nights can cause gas port freeze. As I said in an earlier reply, ya ever try'n cock a bolt on the run? These are HIS primary reasons, I am sure there are personal ones also.
 
The statement...

..."Anything a lever action can do, a bolt could do better." taken at face value, I would believe to be false. You've been given some good reasons for that already. IE: High capacity, quick loading, loading on the run, quick actions, very capable within 150yds or so, etc.

If one were to turn the statement around and make it "Anything a bolt action can do, a lever action could do better." I don't believe would make it a true statement either as they both have their strong and weak points. IE: why you don't see levers competing side by side with bolts in bench-rest competitions, or long range varmint hunting, or having been adopted historically by the most powerful military organizations of the world like the bolts were.

(If I remember correctly "one" of the reasons the Win 1895 wasn't adopted by the US Army for general issue to all troops was due the fact that a soldier couldn't operate the lever nearly as easily as a bolt while in the prone position, hugging the earth and keeping his head down as low as possible.)
 
BLR Excellent levergun

This is an old thread by now, but I just have to put in a few more words in support of the BLR. With a rotary bolt having lugs that lock into the barrel, this is just a bolt action rifle with a faster handle! Note also the removable box magazine allowing one to carry several (or as many as you may want) extras. The build quality is superb.

Mine is a .308, model 81 BLR short action built in 1984. This is the traditional looking model with straight stock and steel reciever. This model went out of production for a awhile in favor of the long action model with pistol grip, alloy reciever, and chambered for some really major calibers. I think it is now back in the line. You all better get one before they disappear for good.

If I could find a scout-type scope mount this would be THE American scout rifle! There, I got that off my chest.
 
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