Apparently Carrying a "Non-Gun" In Texas WILL Get You Arrested!!

[pohill]

Are you serious? What, every cop should take classes on IDing black powder revolvers and antique guns on the spot? Never mind the domestic abuse laws, drug laws, motor vehicle laws, MODERN firearm laws, etc, etc. If the law says "no open carry", and you want to make a statement by open carrying a black power revolver - for whatever stupid reason you might have - do it, but I can almost guarantee that you will be arrested (even if the charges are eventually dropped). Black powder revolver owners get their undies in a bind when someone calls their guns "toys". They're not toys, they say, they're REAL guns that killed 600,000 people during the Civil War. But get caught open carrying a BP revolver and suddenly it's a non-firearm. Which is it?
Look ahead to a trial. "This is what the defendant was carrying (holds up a Ruger Old Army).
Then, "This is what the officer thought it might be." (holds up a Blackhawk). Then look at the faces of the jury.
Perceived crime? Never heard of it. I have heard of Probable Cause.

 

[swathdiver]

Cops around here used to keep the state statutes book in their trunk. When in doubt, look it up! It's not that hard folks. If it is, call your supervisor.

FYI: A Ruger Old Army and 1851 Navy for example are "antique firearms". They are not "firearms" nor are they "deadly weapons" under Federal Law (and Florida). There are no prohibitions against open or concealed carry of these but apparently these three have the resources and time to prove it in court.

 

[Sam1911]

You do realize that cops can get in quite a bit of trouble for arresting someone who hasn't committed a crime?

Should a cop take classes and/or be expected to be knowledgeable? Only if he's going to ARREST someone for what he thinks is going on. If not, he shouldn't arrest. Or he should seek more information from his superiors.

There is something ghastly wrong with a society that will accept a "lock 'em up and sort it out later" mentality from its public servants.

 

[pohill]

FYI: A Ruger Old Army and 1851 Navy for example are "antique firearms". They are not "firearms" nor are they "deadly weapons

FYI, I was making a point of comparing a Ruger Old Army and a Ruger Blackhawk, on the spot and trying to determine which is a firearm and which is not, immediately, with a cameraman calling you a Nazi. What good would a statute book do you if you don't know if it's a modern or antique firearm?
Shoot someone with a ROA or an 1851 Navy and see what kind of weapon they are, especially if the person dies.

You do realize that cops can get in quite a bit of trouble for arresting someone who hasn't committed a crime?

Really? Give me an example. OJ?

Again, as far as arresting someone and then letting them go - what about the cop who places a suspected drunk driver in custody based on a field test, then that same driver passes the breathalyzer and is let go? Probable cause - look it up.

 

[Sam1911]

Really? Give me an example. OJ?

Again, as far as arresting someone and then letting them go - what about the cop who places a suspected drunk driver in custody based on a field test, then that same driver passes the breathalyzer and is let go? Probable cause - look it up.

I understand probable cause. I also understand that people who are hassled and/or arrested for open carry when what they were doing was technically lawful are making big wins.

http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2013/08/15/3149688/open-carrying-army-veteran-gets.html

http://www.examiner.com/article/alamogordo-police-pay-21-000-to-settle-open-carry-lawsuit

http://woodstockadvocate.blogspot.com/2011/10/2-year-old-wisconsin-open-carry-case.html

http://www.thedailypage.com/daily/article.php?article=35497

http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/07/22/open-carry-case-settled/

There's no shortage of these cases. Unfortunately it isn't always the officers themselves who take the brunt of the punishment, as their departments indemnify them. However, that works out well too, as departments have deeper pockets which works out even better for those working for change.

 

[allaroundhunter]

typical texas state trooper

Of all the encounters that I have had with law enforcement in Texas, mine with state police has been the most positive. The fact that it had the potential to also be the worst makes me further appreciate their professionalism.

But then again.... My experience wasn't with DPS in Austin...

However, there are some pretty awesome APD guys that I have shot with and still talk to from time to time that would have been much more knowledgeable in this particular scenario.

 

[pohill]

Those cases were settled in civil court - the cops never got "in trouble".
Do I like some of the gun laws we have now? You gotta be kidding - I live in MA.
But I'm also a former cop and I have a pretty good idea of what it's like to have to make a snap judgment and hope it turns out to be the right one.
I'm not for or against open carry - if it's legal, it's your choice. But I see no point in pushing the boundaries of a law for no apparent reason. I like my BP revolvers, I like that I can buy them out of state because they're not considered firearms, but if someone pushes the courts to re-define open carry, and it turns bad and BP firearms are for some crazy reason deemed to be firearms - not good.

 

[Sam1911]

Well, some folks feel that there is a reason to push the boundaries, and one of the great benefits of doing so is (as those cases show) to make police officers and departments take a big step back from hassling law-abiding citizens. You seem to be saying, "don't make waves, maybe they'll leave us alone." That's rarely turned out well, nor been a path for positive change.

You've got your reasons for keeping your head down and not wanting to rock the boat, but those reasons aren't any more (or less) valid than someone else's reason (in another state with very different laws than your own) to work for changes however they think they can.

 

[pohill]

I'm not saying don't rock the boat, and my head is not down - I'm saying bring about change in a better way. The fact is they will not leave us (gun owners) alone, ever. I like the non-firearm status of my BP revolvers - I sure as heck won't protest to be able to wear it on my hip openly when I can't do the same with my Ruger Speed Six. As far as cops hassling law abiding citizens...looks like we're back to the age old spectator sport, Cop Bashing.

 

[Sam1911]

I won't bash cops, and we don't allow it here.

If they arrest someone for doing something that is within the law, they need to be corrected, and their department policies changed to prevent that from happening again.

Usually that's best accomplished at the point of a lawsuit. So, more power to these guys!

 

[Carl N. Brown]

If I carried a black powder revolver as a weapon of defense in public without a handgun carry permit, I expect I would be found in violation of the Tennessee "going armed" statute, and arguing a BP revolver or pre-1898 antique is not a Federal Title I Firearm under the 1968 Gun Control Act would not impress anyone in the police or court system, since intent to carry as a weapon makes it a weapon.

 

[Sam1911]

Right, which is why I asked the question I did about how the statute is worded IN TEXAS where these guys are.

They don't have that problem.

 

[RandyRay41]

As of now BP, antique, relic, etc. guns are not in the spot light. I don't believe bringing them to the spot light is going to solve anything. I see no reason to draw attention to something that needs no attention. If the anti gun people get it in their head that BP guns need regulating it could be very bad for us. Especially since BP is considered an explosive and is easily acquired.

I understand the theory behind making a point but is a point necessary in this instance? I think not. Sure is nice to be able to purchase and own such guns without the government sticking their nose in anyone's business. We will see what this case will mean for the future of BP.

 

[Jenrick]

I don't disagree with the folks above who say officers should "look it up" or be knowledgeable of the law in and of itself. However it's a rather esoteric point of law that isn't dealt with often, and to expect every officer to be familiar with it is reaching a bit. I think if the protesters had taken the time to print out the relevant sections of the Texas Penal code and provided it to the Troopers they probably wouldn't have been arrested. I haven't watched the videos, but it sounds like several of them pushed the issue.

Additionally while BP guns aren't considered firearms under the Texas Penal Code, they could (if a DA pushed the issue) possibly be considered a zip gun:

46.01(16) "Zip gun" means a device or combination of devices that was not originally a firearm and is adapted to expel a projectile through a smooth-bore or rifled-bore barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance.

Now this depends on the reading of the "firearm" definition above, but with a permissive judge it would certainly be possible to argue it. Possession of a zip gun is ironically a 3rd degree felony, rather then a class A misdemeanor for carrying a firearm where/when you shouldn't.

-Jenrick

 

[Patocazador]

But I see no point in pushing the boundaries of a law for no apparent reason.

Martin Luther King would have had a big problem with that attitude.

 

[BullSlinger]

Randy, I agree with you. I have no idea why these gentlemen decided to make a point of something like this. If they want open carry in TX they should get with the state law makers. I am afraid they may end up with BP guns being considered as firearms (look at the restrictions on a Caballas bp order for some states, NY, MA, IL, CA, HI...)
Today another nut went loose in DC with an AR15. The antis want our guns taken away so here is one more log on the fire for them. Guy was a Navy Vet. I fear for my 2nd Amd. rights.

 

[ArmedOkie]

It took some stones for those cops to arrest those guys. Cops would never try that in my area of Oklahoma. When I walk into a store with my long colt strapped on, cops won't even look me in the face. They act afraid to even say anything and I've never been carded for carrying.

 

[BullSlinger]

I thought you could open carry in OK?

 

[pohill]

Martin Luther King would have had a big problem with that attitude.

Then you should push the boundaries, protest the laws, defy authority, be civilly disobedient, get arrested, go to court, go to the Supreme Court. It is your right.
Dr. King had a good reason to do what he did.

 

[swathdiver]

FYI, I was making a point of comparing a Ruger Old Army and a Ruger Blackhawk, on the spot and trying to determine which is a firearm and which is not, immediately, with a cameraman calling you a Nazi.

If it's pointed at you, you don't have to worry, just draw and fire. However, the good officer could simply ask and with a little bit of reasoning (seeing those percussion caps) realize that it's an antique. If they just acted a little friendlier, and not have the mindset of us versus them then I doubt those men would have been arrested. Having watched the first video, I think it was the officer's pride that kept him from releasing the man. It's a universal truth that pride goeth before the fall.

These guns are a whole lot of fun and I'd hate to see restrictions placed on them because of this.

 

[robhof]

robhof

I open carried my ROA in South Fl.(Homestead and the keys) when I went fishing, especially at night and got hassled by the Marine patrol, but when I explained they replied that with a gun I was asking for trouble. My reply was that I was advertising against trouble and had no problems on any of my fishing adventures. A few customs agents wanted to see my gun and thought it was a novel way around state law.

 

[RandyRay41]

. A few customs agents wanted to see my gun and thought it was a novel way around state law.

This is the mindset that concerns me. It is a way around the law. Been a loophole for years and since there has been no high profile mass killings, robberies, etc with a BP gun no one has seen the need to bring up the loophole. But with a lot of publicity such as with this case it will be brought up.

 

[pohill]

If it's pointed at you, you don't have to worry, just draw and fire

Yeah and maybe you could shoot it out of his hands, shoot the buttons off his coat, shoot the hat off his head, shoot his left, or right, earlobe, and have your gun holstered before he knows what happened.

What the heck...if you make a "bad decision", and Mr President deems that you "acted foolishly" in making an arrest, you might be invited to the White House for a beer summit to smooth it all out.

Last April, when Boston was hit with home-made bombs, there was a great deal of concern on this forum, and others, about black powder being brought into the spotlight. Now you want it in the spotlight?

 

[sf46]

While I ceratinly sympathetize with the guys carrying the black powder guns, I think the police can still claim probable cause for reasons stated above about the Ruger Old Army looking just like a Ruger Blackhawk. My question is this: Are all the guys carrying black powder revolvers at Civil War Reenactments in Texas going to get arrested too?

 

[Foto Joe]

I think what some people are missing here is that it is illegal to open carry ANY loaded gun in Texas. You may carry long guns but they must be unloaded. If those BP guns were loaded then they would have been arrested for a whole 'nother reason. They were arrested for "calculated to alarm" in the disorderly conduct statute. If there had not been a protest going on then that charge might stick but since there was a protest or demonstration going to promote open carry in the first place then the "calculated to alarm" thing is a little silly.

I think what we had here was a few protesters that were trying to make a point and a few law enforcement officers who were a little under educated. Once the fun starts then nobody wants to back down therefore the guys with the badges are gonna win. In my estimation both sides should have used a little more reason and less testosterone. Former and present officers on this forum should admit that being a peace officer you are very used to getting your way. Once your authority is challenged then it quickly becomes a control issue that needs to be handled and handled quickly in most instances, especially when there are weapons involved. It's a mindset, and I'm not saying it's bad, but in this particular instance I think it worked against them. From what I saw their handling of the elderly disabled vet was top notch and very professional and I heard no heckling in that video. On the other hand the longer video definitely shows citizens challenging the authority of the officers. Once the name calling starts then you've lost all of your credibility with me I'm afraid.

I've had contact with law enforcement over the years and most of it turned out just fine. I did learn the hard way that mistaking a US Marshall for a rent-a-cop though is a bad idea, those boys really know how to put somebody on the ground FAST!! Luckily for me he had more intelligence than me too and we worked out a mutual agreement, he didn't have to do paperwork and I got to go home that nite instead of jail.

My point to this whole this is as follows: Both parties probably could have handled this differently.